Re: Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

[Mikek]

I would just look for WD-1 military telephone wire, very strong, tough 
insulation and cheap enough.


    Mikek


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Re: Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

[Grant Saviers]

I've had 8x 125ft long 10ft elevated aluminum radials up for 7 years in 
the forest of 100ft+ cedar, fir, and hemlock.  Plenty of branch falls up 
to 3".  Maybe a few inches of sag and no breaks.  Negligible stretch.


Using US brand real electric fence wire, 13 gauge.  9 ga is available.

Grant KZ1W



On 4/13/2021 20:56, Joe wrote:
Did you use real Aluminum electric fence wire? The real stuff is 
tempered to be very strong under tension.
Geez 2000+ pound Bulls wont go through it. I have had tree branches 4" 
dia break before the wire breaks.


Last wire I used this with was a 1500 foot loop up about 60 feet.

Joe WB9SBD
Sig

On 4/13/2021 10:49 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 4/13/2021 9:04 AM, Peter Krulewitch wrote:
I tried the wire with some success but sag due to stretching created 
a problem. Wonder what your experience is and also use of steel fence 
wire.

W2LL

Sent from my iPhone
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Did you use the tensioning springs at the ends that are
made for electric fences?  I had beverages up for years
with these springs and never had a problem with sagging,
even with supports spaced every 200 feet .

73
Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

[Joe]

Did you use real Aluminum electric fence wire? The real stuff is 
tempered to be very strong under tension.
Geez 2000+ pound Bulls wont go through it. I have had tree branches 4" 
dia break before the wire breaks.


Last wire I used this with was a 1500 foot loop up about 60 feet.

Joe WB9SBD
Sig

On 4/13/2021 10:49 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 4/13/2021 9:04 AM, Peter Krulewitch wrote:
I tried the wire with some success but sag due to stretching created 
a problem. Wonder what your experience is and also use of steel fence 
wire.

W2LL

Sent from my iPhone
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Reflector




Did you use the tensioning springs at the ends that are
made for electric fences?  I had beverages up for years
with these springs and never had a problem with sagging,
even with supports spaced every 200 feet .

73
Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 4/13/2021 9:04 AM, Peter Krulewitch wrote:

I tried the wire with some success but sag due to stretching created a problem. 
Wonder what your experience is and also use of steel fence wire.
W2LL

Sent from my iPhone
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Did you use the tensioning springs at the ends that are
made for electric fences?  I had beverages up for years
with these springs and never had a problem with sagging,
even with supports spaced every 200 feet .

73
Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

[List Mail]

I use 2.5 mm heavy galvanized high-tensile steel fencing wire for my three 
2-wire Beverages. It is cheap and easy to find. I purchased a 1500 m roll from 
my rural hardware store.
You can pull it tight with a fence wire strainer, and you can go more than 50 m 
between supports.
There is some loss noticeable in the reverse direction, compared with the 
forward direction, but there is sufficient receiver gain for it not to be a 
problem, or warrant a pre-amplifier.
73, Luke VK3HJ.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peter Krulewitch
Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 2021 2:04 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

I tried the wire with some success but sag due to stretching created a problem. 
Wonder what your experience is and also use of steel fence wire.
W2LL

Sent from my iPhone
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Topband: Aluminum fence wire for Beverage

[Peter Krulewitch]

I tried the wire with some success but sag due to stretching created a problem. 
Wonder what your experience is and also use of steel fence wire.
W2LL

Sent from my iPhone
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Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

[Roger Graves]

Thanks to all who provided much helpful advice.

I have the KLM 3 inch boom sections apart now. The 20 year old Penetrox coating 
had done its job of preventing aluminum corrosion, but the castor oil had 
evaporated to the “gummy” stage, which made the joint too hard for two guys to 
pull apart. Once I had rigged up a come-a-long to one end and a rope at the 
other end, both secured to trees and each attached to the boom in two places on 
opposite sides of a 4 1/2 inch bolt thru the boom bolt holes (thanks David), it 
came apart quite easily, really not very much tension required. No penetrating 
oil was needed.

If the Penetrox had not worked, one of the types of penetrating oil that were 
suggested would no doubt have helped. Glad I did not have to try that smelly PB 
blaster - the xyl has a VERY sensitive nose!

The 32 ft KLM boom and 3 element 20 mtr monoband yagi attached served as the 
biggest part of the top loading for my shunt fed tower 160 mtr tx vertical. It 
worked well but now is history.

73,

Roger


On Aug 1, 2016, at 11:55 PM, David Harmon  wrote:

> Hi Roger
> I had a similar prob with a KLM 20mtr 'Big Stick' monobander with a 3" boom.
> When I assembled it I used somethingdon't remember but it was probably
> Penetroxcould have been nevr-siezebut I don't think sonot sure
> that stuff helped...but it could not have hurt.
> The big problem for me was the bolts that go through the boom can crush and
> deform the tubealso there can be dimples on the inside that are formed
> as the bolts are tightened.
> If this is the problem I can only suggest using a toggle bolt...stick it in
> the hole and tighten it down then use a tool...like a pry bar to attempt to
> get the dimples flush with the outside of the tube.
> Alsoto assist taking it apart you can rig a come-along around the
> through bolt or drill new holes...put the bolt through and wrap the straps
> around the too-long bolt that hangs out each side.
> Anchor one end of the tube(s) and take up the slack on the come-alongand
> there ya go!
> 
> 
> 73
> 
> David Harmon
> K6XYZ
> Sperry, OK
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> Graves
> Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 5:51 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"
> 
> I need to separate KLH 3 inch aluminum boom sections. When assembled 20
> years ago I used Penetrox on them so hopefully they are not welded together.
> In fact one of them separated 1/2 inch then stuck. Would there be a
> "penetrating oil" that would help to free/lubricate these joints to make the
> separation easier?
> 
> Thanks and 73,
> 
> Rod, VE7VV
> 
> 
> _
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> 

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Re: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

[Clive GM3POI]

Rod, The best type I have come across is PB Blaster (made in Ohio), best
left overnight in difficult situations and another spray in the morning.
73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Graves
Sent: 01 August 2016 22:51
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

I need to separate KLH 3 inch aluminum boom sections. When assembled 20
years ago I used Penetrox on them so hopefully they are not welded together.
In fact one of them separated 1/2 inch then stuck. Would there be a
"penetrating oil" that would help to free/lubricate these joints to make the
separation easier?

Thanks and 73,

Rod, VE7VV


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Re: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

[David Harmon]

I too have used PB Blaster in the past and it does workBUT..don't
get any of that stuff on you or the XYL will make you sleep in the dawg
house!
You will stink so damn bad that the dawg will move out and likely take your
placekaff
No kiddingthat stuff stinks unbelievably bad...


73

David Harmon
K6XYZ
Sperry, OK


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Grant
Saviers
Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 7:38 PM
To: Roger Graves ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

I've been using PB Blaster penetrating oil with good success.  Since you
know there are Penetrox particles (it is zinc dust plus castor oil per the
MSDS)  between the tubes, I'd try to wick some PB in there, let it sit for a
while and then work it back and forth to loosen up the dried up Pentrox.
Repeat until the boom comes apart.

The Penetrox'd 3" booms here put together 7 years ago, came apart easily,
but at some point the oil evaporates away.

Grant KZ1W

On 8/1/2016 15:50 PM, Roger Graves wrote:
> I need to separate KLH 3 inch aluminum boom sections. When assembled 20
years ago I used Penetrox on them so hopefully they are not welded together.
In fact one of them separated 1/2 inch then stuck. Would there be a
"penetrating oil" that would help to free/lubricate these joints to make the
separation easier?
>
> Thanks and 73,
>
> Rod, VE7VV
>
>
> _
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Re: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

[Grant Saviers]

I've been using PB Blaster penetrating oil with good success.  Since you 
know there are Penetrox particles (it is zinc dust plus castor oil per 
the MSDS)  between the tubes, I'd try to wick some PB in there, let it 
sit for a while and then work it back and forth to loosen up the dried 
up Pentrox.  Repeat until the boom comes apart.


The Penetrox'd 3" booms here put together 7 years ago, came apart 
easily, but at some point the oil evaporates away.


Grant KZ1W

On 8/1/2016 15:50 PM, Roger Graves wrote:

I need to separate KLH 3 inch aluminum boom sections. When assembled 20 years 
ago I used Penetrox on them so hopefully they are not welded together. In fact 
one of them separated 1/2 inch then stuck. Would there be a “penetrating oil” 
that would help to free/lubricate these joints to make the separation easier?

Thanks and 73,

Rod, VE7VV


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Re: Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

[Greg Zenger]

Hi Rod,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. The sticking may not be aluminum
corrosion, but might be a burr on one of the through holes, which could be
digging into the other member and possibly exacerbated by a slightly out of
round condition from over tightening the hardware that held the joint
together.  If there is an out of round condition you may be able to correct
it by squeezing slightly across the largest diameter of the joint.

Try heating the joint with a torch (hotter the better, MAP or
Oxy-acetylene), try to concentrate your heat evenly around the outer piece,
the more heat you can dump in quickly means you can raise the temperature
of the outside piece before it conducts to the inner piece, thermal
expansion of the metal may loosen you up enough to slip the joint apart.
To take it even further, using dry ice you can lower the temperature of the
inner piece to shrink it. And another thing that could work is thermal
shock, get the joint hot (torch) then get it cold (dry ice/ice water) back
and forth a few times may work your joint free.

Another thing you can try: build a slide hammer to help you knock the joint
apart.

Lastly, go chemical and try to dissolve the aluminum oxides with a solution
ammonia or sodium hydroxide (lye), this will also eat at the aluminum so
avoid over exposure and cleanup well when done. Also, be careful if playing
with these chemicals; read up on the safety datasheets and don the proper
protective equipment.

Good luck,

Greg N2GZ

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Roger Graves  wrote:

> I need to separate KLH 3 inch aluminum boom sections. When assembled 20
> years ago I used Penetrox on them so hopefully they are not welded
> together. In fact one of them separated 1/2 inch then stuck. Would there be
> a “penetrating oil” that would help to free/lubricate these joints to make
> the separation easier?
>
> Thanks and 73,
>
> Rod, VE7VV
>
>
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Topband: aluminum "penetrating oil"

[Roger Graves]

I need to separate KLH 3 inch aluminum boom sections. When assembled 20 years 
ago I used Penetrox on them so hopefully they are not welded together. In fact 
one of them separated 1/2 inch then stuck. Would there be a “penetrating oil” 
that would help to free/lubricate these joints to make the separation easier?

Thanks and 73,

Rod, VE7VV


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Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[N2TK, Tony]

I had aluminum covered hardline in upstate NY. Where it was on top of the
grass, ground, leaves, pine needles it was fine. Where it went underground
for about 25 feet the aluminum turned to goo after 4-5 years.

73,
N2TK, Tony 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 12:49 PM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

I use CATV hardline everywhere here and have had some left over bare coils
on the ground for the 24 years Ive been here. Except for staining from
leaves, etc it is still fine appearing. The ground is mostly leaves, twigs
and pine needles. The bare cable CATV runs in this town have been up even
longer and Ive been told by installers the operational life is expected to
be 25 years or longer, unless it is subject to physical damage of course
which is SOP from storms.>>>>>

This topic, because there are so many variables that affect results, is like
the never ending radial bantering. There isn't one answer.

There is a huge difference between aluminum just sitting on the ground in
coils or laying on dry ground and aluminum connected to things that apply a
"battery" voltage or have moist soil contact with dissimilar metals.

Aluminum has a threshold where, if potential is below a certain level, it
rapidly builds a protective insulating coating and stops eroding. If it gets
above that level, especially in the presence of chlorides, it will erode
endlessly until it is gone.

There also is a huge difference between CATV cables suspended from rigid
messenger lines and wires that constantly flex (like thin wire) or vibrate.

Aluminum work hardens and cracks. That's why, on occasion, a #9 aluminum
fence wire element for my 160 four square will just break and drop. They do
this even though they are under no real stress at all, just hanging there
from catenaries lines. They also break on occasion at flex points. Not too
often, just one once a year or so.

Like radials, some systems make people happy and some do not. The #9
aluminum fence wire is worth the occasional breaks in my 4-square elements
because it is cheap to replace, light, thick, and does not weigh the lines
down.

73 Tom 

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Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[Tom W8JI]

I use CATV hardline everywhere here and have had some left over bare coils
on the ground for the 24 years Ive been here. Except for staining from
leaves, etc it is still fine appearing. The ground is mostly leaves, twigs
and pine needles. The bare cable CATV runs in this town have been up even
longer and Ive been told by installers the operational life is expected to
be 25 years or longer, unless it is subject to physical damage of course
which is SOP from storms.>

This topic, because there are so many variables that affect results, is like 
the never ending radial bantering. There isn't one answer.


There is a huge difference between aluminum just sitting on the ground in 
coils or laying on dry ground and aluminum connected to things that apply a 
"battery" voltage or have moist soil contact with dissimilar metals.


Aluminum has a threshold where, if potential is below a certain level, it 
rapidly builds a protective insulating coating and stops eroding. If it gets 
above that level, especially in the presence of chlorides, it will erode 
endlessly until it is gone.


There also is a huge difference between CATV cables suspended from rigid 
messenger lines and wires that constantly flex (like thin wire) or vibrate.


Aluminum work hardens and cracks. That's why, on occasion, a #9 aluminum 
fence wire element for my 160 four square will just break and drop. They do 
this even though they are under no real stress at all, just hanging there 
from catenaries lines. They also break on occasion at flex points. Not too 
often, just one once a year or so.


Like radials, some systems make people happy and some do not. The #9 
aluminum fence wire is worth the occasional breaks in my 4-square elements 
because it is cheap to replace, light, thick, and does not weigh the lines 
down.


73 Tom 


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Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[ZR]

I use CATV hardline everywhere here and have had some left over bare coils 
on the ground for the 24 years Ive been here. Except for staining from 
leaves, etc it is still fine appearing. The ground is mostly leaves, twigs 
and pine needles. The bare cable CATV runs in this town have been up even 
longer and Ive been told by installers the operational life is expected to 
be 25 years or longer, unless it is subject to physical damage of course 
which is SOP from storms.


Carl
KM1H


- Original Message - 
From: "Hardy Landskov" 

To: "Bob Kirkeby" ; "Mike Greenway" 
Cc: "TOPBAND" 
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: ALUMINUM


Bob,
I had the same experience. I was using bare 75 ohm TV hardline as a matching
section on my 160 Delta loop and it was partially buried. But after 2 years,
the outer jacket was almost gone when I had to dig it up. My soil is just
regular sandy dirt.
So my advice to anyone that wants to bury aluminum cable or wire is make
sure it is insulated or jacketed.
73 Hardy N7RT
Phoenix


- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Kirkeby" 

To: "Mike Greenway" 
Cc: "TOPBAND" 
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: ALUMINUM


I have used solid #10 aluminum as radials buried 6" in alkaline soil. It
became badly corroded in 2 years; nearly disintegrated in spots. Not saying
it wouldn't be fine in other soils.
73
Bob
WBØDSF

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Mike Greenway  wrote:


From some feedback on the aluminum coated steel, I am thinking about
trying some regular aluminum, 14 gauge.  Anyone got a downside to this?
 Price, weight, conductivity are good and little if any stretch.  I will
use aluminum screws and nuts on the end terminations with No Ox.  73 Mike
K4PI
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Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[Tom W8JI]

The life of aluminum not only depends on the environment and the particular 
aluminum alloy, but also the electrical potential it is connected to.  It 
can be especially bad in the presense of chloides, like near the sea, or 
with high galvanic potentials.


It disappears pretty fast at my house in contact with soil, either because 
my other ground systems form a battery through the soil, the iron in the 
soil, and/or the pH.


I use #9 aluminum fence wire for some antennas, and I'm planning on using it 
in a open wire feedline. I have had some breakage problems in aluminum wire 
antennas because of wind vibration or some other fatigue. Due to weight 
restrictions, I almost have to use aluminum wire in some places.


73 Tom 


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Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[Hardy Landskov]

Bob,
I had the same experience. I was using bare 75 ohm TV hardline as a matching 
section on my 160 Delta loop and it was partially buried. But after 2 years, 
the outer jacket was almost gone when I had to dig it up. My soil is just 
regular sandy dirt.
So my advice to anyone that wants to bury aluminum cable or wire is make 
sure it is insulated or jacketed.

73 Hardy N7RT
Phoenix


- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Kirkeby" 

To: "Mike Greenway" 
Cc: "TOPBAND" 
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: ALUMINUM


I have used solid #10 aluminum as radials buried 6" in alkaline soil. It
became badly corroded in 2 years; nearly disintegrated in spots. Not saying
it wouldn't be fine in other soils.
73
Bob
WBØDSF

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Mike Greenway  wrote:


From some feedback on the aluminum coated steel, I am thinking about
trying some regular aluminum, 14 gauge.  Anyone got a downside to this?
 Price, weight, conductivity are good and little if any stretch.  I will
use aluminum screws and nuts on the end terminations with No Ox.  73 Mike
K4PI
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Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[Don Field]

For what it's worth, for T32C, because our container never arrived, we
bought lots of alumin(i)um wire in KH6 for radials. In the saltwater
atmosphere close to the beach at T32, they lasted less than a week before
disintegrating! The second party to arrive brought copper wire, which was
fine.

Don G3XTT

On 7 March 2013 17:24, Bob Kirkeby  wrote:

> I have used solid #10 aluminum as radials buried 6" in alkaline soil. It
> became badly corroded in 2 years; nearly disintegrated in spots. Not saying
> it wouldn't be fine in other soils.
> 73
> Bob
> WBØDSF
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Mike Greenway  wrote:
>
> > From some feedback on the aluminum coated steel, I am thinking about
> > trying some regular aluminum, 14 gauge.  Anyone got a downside to this?
> >  Price, weight, conductivity are good and little if any stretch.  I will
> > use aluminum screws and nuts on the end terminations with No Ox.  73 Mike
> > K4PI
> > _
> > Topband Reflector
> >
> _
> Topband Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: ALUMINUM

[Bob Kirkeby]

I have used solid #10 aluminum as radials buried 6" in alkaline soil. It
became badly corroded in 2 years; nearly disintegrated in spots. Not saying
it wouldn't be fine in other soils.
73
Bob
WBØDSF

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Mike Greenway  wrote:

> From some feedback on the aluminum coated steel, I am thinking about
> trying some regular aluminum, 14 gauge.  Anyone got a downside to this?
>  Price, weight, conductivity are good and little if any stretch.  I will
> use aluminum screws and nuts on the end terminations with No Ox.  73 Mike
> K4PI
> _
> Topband Reflector
>
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Topband: ALUMINUM

[Mike Greenway]

>From some feedback on the aluminum coated steel, I am thinking about trying 
>some regular aluminum, 14 gauge.  Anyone got a downside to this?  Price, 
>weight, conductivity are good and little if any stretch.  I will use aluminum 
>screws and nuts on the end terminations with No Ox.  73 Mike K4PI
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