Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[PaulKB8N]

I'm also sure that you cannot equate signal strength between stations in  
the same general vicinity.  I've heard and worked stations that others in  
the area couldn't, and vice-versa.  Not an unusual phenomenon at all.   I 
listened to a couple big guns in the area during ARRL160, and they  sometimes 
struggled to copy stations that were solid Q5 here.
 
Just part of the "Magic".
 
Paul, K5AF
 
 
In a message dated 12/6/2011 9:06:28 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
tsho...@wmata.com writes:

>  These stations aren't crocodiles - many are in the
> super station  category and definitely have the "ears" to hear me. This
> seems to be a  matter of operating technique, not technology.
> [...]
> Last  night I worked 19 of the 26 stations I called on the east coast. The
>  others should have been hearing me just as well. I seriously doubt it  
was
> their ears were the problem as they were all big  stations.

Just a heads up on what was going on, on this side of the  pond:

Conditions from East Coast US (Maryland) to West Coast US were  very 
unoptimal.

Those west coast multipliers are very valuable and  there's a bunch of them 
that were a struggle to get from the east  coast.

I am sure many of the big guns who were calling but didn't hear  you, had 
their receive antenna pointed towards the West Coast of the  US.

I know for example that I tried to work N8OO on multiple occasions  but he 
couldn't hear me at all. I'm quite certain (from the stations he was  
working) he had a very effective receive antenna pointed squarely towards  
California.

Tim N3QE  Maryland
___
UR RST IS ...  ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Shoppa, Tim]

> These stations aren't crocodiles - many are in the
> super station category and definitely have the "ears" to hear me. This
> seems to be a matter of operating technique, not technology.
> [...]
> Last night I worked 19 of the 26 stations I called on the east coast. The
> others should have been hearing me just as well. I seriously doubt it was
> their ears were the problem as they were all big stations.

Just a heads up on what was going on, on this side of the pond:

Conditions from East Coast US (Maryland) to West Coast US were very unoptimal.

Those west coast multipliers are very valuable and there's a bunch of them that 
were a struggle to get from the east coast.

I am sure many of the big guns who were calling but didn't hear you, had their 
receive antenna pointed towards the West Coast of the US.

I know for example that I tried to work N8OO on multiple occasions but he 
couldn't hear me at all. I'm quite certain (from the stations he was working) 
he had a very effective receive antenna pointed squarely towards California.

Tim N3QE Maryland
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Shoppa, Tim]

> These stations aren't crocodiles - many are in the
> super station category and definitely have the "ears" to hear me. This
> seems to be a matter of operating technique, not technology.
> [...]
> Last night I worked 19 of the 26 stations I called on the east coast. The
> others should have been hearing me just as well. I seriously doubt it was
> their ears were the problem as they were all big stations.

Just a heads up on what was going on, on this side of the pond:

Conditions from East Coast US to West Coast US were very unoptimal.

Those west coast multipliers are very valuable and there's a bunch of them that 
were a struggle to get from the east coast.

I am sure many of the big guns who were calling but didn't hear you, had their 
receive antenna pointed towards the West Coast of the US.

I know for example that I tried to work N8OO on multiple occasions but he 
couldn't hear me at all. I'm quite certain (from the stations he was working) 
he had a very effective receive antenna pointed squarely towards California.
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Bill Cromwell]

On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 21:50 -0500, Steven Raas wrote:
> Could be Sam,
> 
> I do know that here with my set up ( pretty sad to be honest hihi ) That
> most of the weak ones I work on QSB peaks .. which only last for 15 or so
> seconds.. It really depends on the condx tho. More so.. and I've had it
> happen say 10x this weekend, I cq @ 25-28.. some one comes back @ near
> speed ( a few hi or low is FB ).. I send a partial call and ? and they go
> right to 10 WPM..or they send their call again @ original speed and send
> their call again right after the 1st @ a HIGHLY reduced speed. I dnt mind
> QRS'ing I get it.. but from 25 or so to 10? Its like saying 'I think ur
> sending faster than u can copy so im going to really drag this out to teach
> you somthing'
> 
> It is entirely possible im over sensitive to this.. and I am also willing
> to admit that as a possibility, honestly.
> 
> Regardless .. Im thankfull for every single QSO I made this week end on TB.
> 
> Im trying to think how I can do better for Stew, as I am more serious abt
> that one.. I was in bed by 130 AM I think both nights as I did not want to
> mess up my sleep pattern for this test..that WILL NOT be the case for Stew.
> I just hope I find more stations spread out a bit.. I will also be S&P WAY
> WAY WAY more.. running is NOT productive for me..as after i logged the 1st
> 150 q's I could easily go 30 minutes inbetween a new one vs. just SnP .
> When I do run.. I run High.. 1850-1870 Too many big people down low in my
> little people world hihi.
> 
> -Steve Raas
> N2JDQ

Hi Steve,

I might be somebody who would slow down "too much" - maybe not all the
way down to ten WPM. If I have my keyer on the "sweet spot" I am
reluctant to change it so I probably would grab the straight key to QRS.
On the straight key I have days when 12 or 13 wpm is comfortable and
other days when faster is okay. No lessons intended.

73,

Bill  KU8H

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Steven Raas]

Could be Sam,

I do know that here with my set up ( pretty sad to be honest hihi ) That
most of the weak ones I work on QSB peaks .. which only last for 15 or so
seconds.. It really depends on the condx tho. More so.. and I've had it
happen say 10x this weekend, I cq @ 25-28.. some one comes back @ near
speed ( a few hi or low is FB ).. I send a partial call and ? and they go
right to 10 WPM..or they send their call again @ original speed and send
their call again right after the 1st @ a HIGHLY reduced speed. I dnt mind
QRS'ing I get it.. but from 25 or so to 10? Its like saying 'I think ur
sending faster than u can copy so im going to really drag this out to teach
you somthing'

It is entirely possible im over sensitive to this.. and I am also willing
to admit that as a possibility, honestly.

Regardless .. Im thankfull for every single QSO I made this week end on TB.

Im trying to think how I can do better for Stew, as I am more serious abt
that one.. I was in bed by 130 AM I think both nights as I did not want to
mess up my sleep pattern for this test..that WILL NOT be the case for Stew.
I just hope I find more stations spread out a bit.. I will also be S&P WAY
WAY WAY more.. running is NOT productive for me..as after i logged the 1st
150 q's I could easily go 30 minutes inbetween a new one vs. just SnP .
When I do run.. I run High.. 1850-1870 Too many big people down low in my
little people world hihi.

-Steve Raas
N2JDQ

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 9:35 PM, Sam Morgan  wrote:

> since I have a very weak signal (24w ERP from a 7' tall vertical)
> when I get ask for a repeat of my call
> I send it again at the original speed
>
> but 90% of the time I end up having to repeat more than once
> and them may even have to reduce my speed to ~13wpm
> then I finally have my call copied
>
> perhaps what you are running into is
> someone who is tired of the 3-4 intermediate attempts at normal speeds
> and just cuts to the chase and reduces speed to get it done more quickly?
>
>
> --
> GB & 73
> K5OAI
> Sam Morgan
>
> On 12/4/2011 7:41 PM, Steven Raas wrote:
> > Here is one thing
> > that REALLY irks me ( any contest definitely not TB specific ) I cq.. I
> > get a weak reply.. I send ? or __? or w/e i need to.. and they CHANGE
> THEIR
> > SPEED..or they slow down from 25 WPM to 10 wpm..REALLY? I wouldn't CQ @ a
> > WPM that I couldn't  copy a call @ 99,1 % of the time @ the same speed
> with
> > a marginal to light signal
> ___
> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
>
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Sam Morgan]

since I have a very weak signal (24w ERP from a 7' tall vertical)
when I get ask for a repeat of my call
I send it again at the original speed

but 90% of the time I end up having to repeat more than once
and them may even have to reduce my speed to ~13wpm
then I finally have my call copied

perhaps what you are running into is
someone who is tired of the 3-4 intermediate attempts at normal speeds
and just cuts to the chase and reduces speed to get it done more quickly?


--
GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 12/4/2011 7:41 PM, Steven Raas wrote:
> Here is one thing
> that REALLY irks me ( any contest definitely not TB specific ) I cq.. I
> get a weak reply.. I send ? or __? or w/e i need to.. and they CHANGE THEIR
> SPEED..or they slow down from 25 WPM to 10 wpm..REALLY? I wouldn't CQ @ a
> WPM that I couldn't  copy a call @ 99,1 % of the time @ the same speed with
> a marginal to light signal
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Steven Raas]

I agree 100%,

I run alot.. but im FAR FAR from big.. my rule of thumbs is... Calling CQ
TEST.. leave enough room between CQ's to hear your own call  2x in a row
10wpm LESS that your CQ'ing at.. I generally cq @ 28 WPM as it says on the
N1MM program.. and I had the delay @ about 8 Seconds. Here is one thing
that REALLY irks me ( any contest definatally not TB specific ) I cq.. I
get a weak reply.. I send ? or __? or w/e i need to.. and they CHANGE THEIR
SPEED..or they slow down from 25 WPM to 10 wpm..REALLY? I wouldent CQ @ a
WPM that I couldent  copy a call @ 99,1 % of the time @ the same speed with
a marginal to light signal. ( the other .9% im drinkin coffee n I slurp
loud hihi) Also hear a few ..very few thank goodness, horrible dot dash
ratios out there.. like the dashes were @ 25 wpm but the dots @ 40..tht is
SO HARD to copy.. STOP doing that!  On the flip side.. I think the speed
gurus are hoping for that 45 second opening to super-caledonia and the only
way they will make the q is 100% copy & one exchange @ 38 WPM.

-Steve Raas
N2JDQ

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Cormac Gebruers wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> This weekend I spent a bit of time dipping in to the ARRL 160m contest.
> Something that has struck me a lot over the past few contests on topband
> struck me yet again last night and I figured it was time I put pen to
> paper. I think (hope) it is something fellow contesters might appreciate
> being reminded about as it will help increase their topband score:
>
> I'm a pretty typical little pistol station; on topband I run 100w into a
> base loaded vertical that is just shy of 18m high. It has a reasonable
> ground system under it - 44 radials that are a quarter wave on 80m and that
> radial system is also connected to my 64 quarter wave radial system for my
> 40m vertical (that is in the direction of USA/Canada as it happens). I live
> on the shores of the Atlantic ocean so I'm luckier than most in terms of
> far field. I use a K9AY for listening that is over one wavelength from my
> transmit antenna and has a buried coax feed. These two antennas, 100w and a
> good radio (Yaesu FT-2000 with AC0C roofing filter mod) are a balanced
> combination in practice - lots of time on the air suggests my ears and
> mouth are pretty well matched.
>
> One pattern that lots of operating on topband has thrown up is this; if the
> band is open during the night (not special conditions around
> sunset/sunrise), I'm usually quite audible (but far from rock crushing)
> into the areas about 4000-6000km E/W from my QTH e.g. to the east coast of
> the USA. In a normal DX situation I'll call at a relatively low speed
> (16WPM) until I get one through i.e. when the frequency is sufficiently QRM
> & QRN free. My callsign will generally be copied by the DX station after
> two (perhaps three) repeats. After that we'll have a pretty solid QSO
> (provided band conditions aren't fluctuating rapidly).
>
> In a contest situation however things too often go differently; too many
> run stations treat topband just like the higher bands and call CQ *but only
> listen for a very brief period* before calling again. Unfortunately for me
> (and for them) that results in them failing to hear my call. I'm quite
> confident I'm there alright but the run stations are not leaving long
> enough between calls for there to be much chance of my 16WPM relatively
> weak call being heard. These stations aren't crocodiles - many are in the
> super station category and definitely have the "ears" to hear me. This
> seems to be a matter of operating technique, not technology.
>
> Last night I worked 19 of the 26 stations I called on the east coast. The
> others should have been hearing me just as well. I seriously doubt it was
> their ears were the problem as they were all big stations. It wasn't QRM
> either as they weren't working anyone else. QRN wasn't an issue as far as I
> could tell last night... All the stations I failed to work exhibited a
> common behaviour of leaving only a matter of seconds between CQ calls. I
> did struggle to work stations further west in e.g. LA and TX - even those
> that were listening with great care, but that was down to propagation I
> expect (the K was 2 at the time - see ON4UN for some interesting stats
> about the probability of working the west coast of the USA from Europe when
> the K index is > 1). The 7 guys I didn't work were in "easy" states like
> NH, NY, PA, ME etc. where I did work at least two other stations of similar
> capability.
>
> On topband, run stations need to leave longer between CQs than they do on
> the higher bands to give themselves  a chance to hear the weaker ones. Why
> bother? On topband there is a higher proportion of stations that fall into
> the "weaker" category than on the higher bands due to the necessity for
> many to use compromised transmit antennas on 160. A run station's QSO total
> depends on listening a bit harder and a bit longer on topband but this is
> something that certa

Topband: An observation about Topband contesting technique

[Cormac Gebruers]

Hi All,

This weekend I spent a bit of time dipping in to the ARRL 160m contest.
Something that has struck me a lot over the past few contests on topband
struck me yet again last night and I figured it was time I put pen to
paper. I think (hope) it is something fellow contesters might appreciate
being reminded about as it will help increase their topband score:

I'm a pretty typical little pistol station; on topband I run 100w into a
base loaded vertical that is just shy of 18m high. It has a reasonable
ground system under it - 44 radials that are a quarter wave on 80m and that
radial system is also connected to my 64 quarter wave radial system for my
40m vertical (that is in the direction of USA/Canada as it happens). I live
on the shores of the Atlantic ocean so I'm luckier than most in terms of
far field. I use a K9AY for listening that is over one wavelength from my
transmit antenna and has a buried coax feed. These two antennas, 100w and a
good radio (Yaesu FT-2000 with AC0C roofing filter mod) are a balanced
combination in practice - lots of time on the air suggests my ears and
mouth are pretty well matched.

One pattern that lots of operating on topband has thrown up is this; if the
band is open during the night (not special conditions around
sunset/sunrise), I'm usually quite audible (but far from rock crushing)
into the areas about 4000-6000km E/W from my QTH e.g. to the east coast of
the USA. In a normal DX situation I'll call at a relatively low speed
(16WPM) until I get one through i.e. when the frequency is sufficiently QRM
& QRN free. My callsign will generally be copied by the DX station after
two (perhaps three) repeats. After that we'll have a pretty solid QSO
(provided band conditions aren't fluctuating rapidly).

In a contest situation however things too often go differently; too many
run stations treat topband just like the higher bands and call CQ *but only
listen for a very brief period* before calling again. Unfortunately for me
(and for them) that results in them failing to hear my call. I'm quite
confident I'm there alright but the run stations are not leaving long
enough between calls for there to be much chance of my 16WPM relatively
weak call being heard. These stations aren't crocodiles - many are in the
super station category and definitely have the "ears" to hear me. This
seems to be a matter of operating technique, not technology.

Last night I worked 19 of the 26 stations I called on the east coast. The
others should have been hearing me just as well. I seriously doubt it was
their ears were the problem as they were all big stations. It wasn't QRM
either as they weren't working anyone else. QRN wasn't an issue as far as I
could tell last night... All the stations I failed to work exhibited a
common behaviour of leaving only a matter of seconds between CQ calls. I
did struggle to work stations further west in e.g. LA and TX - even those
that were listening with great care, but that was down to propagation I
expect (the K was 2 at the time - see ON4UN for some interesting stats
about the probability of working the west coast of the USA from Europe when
the K index is > 1). The 7 guys I didn't work were in "easy" states like
NH, NY, PA, ME etc. where I did work at least two other stations of similar
capability.

On topband, run stations need to leave longer between CQs than they do on
the higher bands to give themselves  a chance to hear the weaker ones. Why
bother? On topband there is a higher proportion of stations that fall into
the "weaker" category than on the higher bands due to the necessity for
many to use compromised transmit antennas on 160. A run station's QSO total
depends on listening a bit harder and a bit longer on topband but this is
something that certain stations seem to have overlooked. It is interesting
that those run stations in the 4000 to 6000km zone that do leave a decent
gap (enough time for me to transmit my call twice at 16WPM) almost
invariably do hear me and consequently do get the QSO and the points as a
result :-)

It's been my overwhelming experience on topband that it is beneficial to
slow things down a bit. I always use a lower WPM speed as experience has
shown it clearly makes me stand out more than if I send faster. For run
stations leaving bigger gaps between CQs on the higher bands will impact
rate but let's face it you aren't going to work a rate of 160 an hour on
topband very often, so generally there is time to listen for a bit longer.
Many little pistols wind back the CW WPM on topband as it increases the
likelihood of a successful QSO. It only works however if the other guy/gal
leave long enough between CQs to hear us in the first place!
Thanks for the contacts in the ARRL 160, it was fun - see you in the Stew
Perry in a few weeks.

-- 
Regards
Cormac, EI4HQ
[Cork/UTC] 
http://ei4hq.cloudaccess.net
http://www.corkharbourweather.ie
https://sites.google.com/site/cormacgebruers/