Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Hi Guy, I am chasing down the modeling software to try and get the best results I can on my small lot and sandy soil. I am not really competing against other hams but against my own past performance and experiences. What other hams are doing gives some idea of what might be possible. Meanwhile I am going to toss as much wire into the trees as I can get up there along with low or on-the-ground counterpoise and hope for the best. I'll get some QSOs for sure but more will be better. An end fed wire and a bazooka were two of the best (multiband) antennas I used before. The bazooka is directly proportional to the wavelength and I did mention my small lot. I'm trying to get my wire up before we run out of operating events for the year. 73, Bill KU8H ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Models are very good in relative comparisons, with some very important caveats. 1) Hold everything possible constant between the two models, EXCEPT the singular issue(s) you are trying to trend. Don't try to vary "dirt." If you don't already have burn scars and embarrassing gaffes about dirt, you likely won't have the experience or the burn scar gut motivation to guide you through this mine field. 2) Dirt is not handled well by any model, and each model has techniques for getting reasonable results in spite of dirt. If the comparison between two models is distance from dirt, or varying the kind of dirt, then other than just noting a general "trend", one must take any absolute result with a fair measure of suspicion. The way to avoid dirt as an issue is to pick dirt characteristics and technique for representing dirt, and then hold those CONSTANT everywhere in the suite of comparisons. The comparisons will be good, but the absolute values are suspect. EZNEC, in particular, has help sections on how to deal with dirt, which are required reading if you are trying to do something serious that will cost you time and money. 3) Every model has combinations of model input that will cause the model to compute incorrectly. Even the mighty NEC-4 has these. If you have one of these "gotcha's" in your data, it can queer the outcome, even between two models with very little difference between them. You need to know these for your modeling program and rigorously avoid them. 4) Get a measured actual data point from a test case for low band wire antenna stuff. Account for the difference between reality and your model of that reality before you venture on. If you can't reconcile the two, it's time to bulk up your understanding of what is going on and get some experienced help to go forward. In my last design for immediate construction and contest use, the data points vs. modeled proved that height and droop angle of the elements were critical, and the antenna would fail if height and droop angle were not maintained to design specs for the life of the antenna. More important, seeing the results the owner was convinced as well. This resulted in some on the spot adjustments to design so those height and droop specs COULD be maintained reasonably on his property. 5) If you are serious about an antenna in a certain place, be sure to model ALL the conductors literally. Especially on 80 and 160. Particularly if the antenna is supported by a tower. Everything within a wavelength is in play to some degree. Comparing two antennas where the real ones are on different sites with different sets of miscellaneous conductors and dirt, probably can't be done adequately with models. The best thing to do with modeling is to get started and stick with it. Personally I can't imagine doing antennas without the programs. Like trying to drive a car blind. People have their favorite logical simplification devices to describe what is going on in antennas. Most of these break down if you use those mental devices to actually design something. The models simply show you what is going on between wires due to the physics. Even if you are right when reality and a model differ, you need to know why and how. Some here advocate the throw it up and be happy school of antenna design, and it IS a hobby. Your money and your time, hope you enjoy yourself, honestly. But if you've gotten beyond that, and want to COMPETE with other hams, so pieces of dB's here and there add up to your advantage, or you're just not working anyone and don't get it, running blind without the model won't cut it. And there is lots of help available, if you want it. 73, Guy. On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Rik van Riel wrote: > On 11/23/2011 05:49 PM, Gene Smar wrote: >> Gents: >> >> A man much wiser than I once told me, "The difference between theory >> and practice in theory is less than the difference between theory and >> practice in practice." > I suspect that while models may be somewhat inaccurate > sometimes (especially due to lack of things like trees and > houses in the models), the modeling software will still give > a good picture of the relative quality between two antennas > in the same installation. > > For example, the performance of antennas in my yard is > likely to be off due to the presence of things like trees, > my house, and the neighbors' houses. > > This could cause the model to be off by several dB. > > However, I suspect that the models of various antennas > are likely to each be off by similar amounts in the same > direction. > > In other words, if NEC tells me that one antenna has a > few more dB gain than another, this is likely to be true, > even if it gets the gain for both antennas slightly wrong. > > Am I wrong in my thinking? > > Has anyone observed something contrary? > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RS
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
On 11/23/2011 05:49 PM, Gene Smar wrote: > Gents: > > A man much wiser than I once told me, "The difference between theory > and practice in theory is less than the difference between theory and > practice in practice." I suspect that while models may be somewhat inaccurate sometimes (especially due to lack of things like trees and houses in the models), the modeling software will still give a good picture of the relative quality between two antennas in the same installation. For example, the performance of antennas in my yard is likely to be off due to the presence of things like trees, my house, and the neighbors' houses. This could cause the model to be off by several dB. However, I suspect that the models of various antennas are likely to each be off by similar amounts in the same direction. In other words, if NEC tells me that one antenna has a few more dB gain than another, this is likely to be true, even if it gets the gain for both antennas slightly wrong. Am I wrong in my thinking? Has anyone observed something contrary? ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
www.cebik.com 73,Gerry, K8GT Julius Fazekas wrote: = L. B. Cebik, W4RNL ~ 1939 - 2008 ~ SK as of April 2008 Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://k4tcg.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 # From: W2PM To: Julius Fazekas Cc: Mike(W5UC) ; Guy Olinger K2AV ; "topband@contesting.com" Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting Who is LB?? Sent from my iPad On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:33, Julius Fazekas wrote: > I attended a presentation LB gave to the ETDXA shortly before hi untimely > death. I found him engaging and informative. He was well thought of in East > Tennessee. > > > I have to say that when I became active again in 2003, I found his website > invaluable as a antenna resource. Some of the language was repetitive, but > the antennas built based on the articles were quite effective. My 40m half > square immediately comes to mind. "Verticals without Vertigo" is still a > favorite of mine. > > He did do antenna building/testing, but usually wire antennas and he enjoyed > PVC builds. Think it was more space limitations than health issues. He was a > great advocate of modelling. That, of course, is still contentious to some > schools of thought. > > As to gruff replies, ambiguous writings, dubious analysis, and such, I know > I've been guilty of that and experienced it from others. With some, we > managed to get over the hump and find common ground, with others it hasn't > happened yet. > > > I, for one, am thankful that folks like LB, Rudy, Jim, Tom and others share > and post useful information. They have helped me more than hindered... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and see you on the Top Band this weekend in CQ WW > DX! > > 73, > Julius > > > > Julius Fazekas > N2WN > > > Tennessee Contest Group > http://k4tcg.org/ > http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en > > > Tennessee QSO Party > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > > Elecraft K2 #4455 > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > Elecraft K3/100 # > > > ____ > From: Guy Olinger K2AV > To: Mike(W5UC) > Cc: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? > > His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional licenses and > did commercial modeling for some number of customers, including a lot > of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 antennas. He > did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would explain > why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly sure he did not > have the health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, > though he never complained. But all in all, I'm certainly better off > for him than without him. RIP, and let detractors look to their own > assumptions closets. I'm completely sure LB has far fewer detractors > than I do. I have a series of posts with him about the Wouff Houng > which I treasure. > > 73, Guy. > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Mike(W5UC) wrote: >> On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: >>> L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. >>> >>> Dave WX7G >>> On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: >>> >> I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I >> don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an >> e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of >> being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my >> problem and moved on. >> >> 73, >> Mike, W5UC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK >> > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:20:00 -0500 > From: olin...@bellsouth.net > To: w...@suddenlink.net > CC: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > Extract: >I found LB to be a little enigmatic...I'm fairly sure he did not have the >health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, > though he never complained...73, Guy. Indeed, his health was lacking, and probably increasingly so. While indoors, I was unable to converse with him at any length because he needed to excuse himself for cigarette breaks. 73, Charles, W2SH ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Gents: A man much wiser than I once told me, "The difference between theory and practice in theory is less than the difference between theory and practice in practice." Caveat Amateur. 73 de Gene Smar AD3F - Original Message - From: To: "Julius Fazekas" ; "W2PM" ; "Mike(W5UC)" ; "Guy Olinger K2AV" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting IMHO word of caution: LB Cebik was a great modeler, has done lot of work modeling various antennas, configurations etc but have not built most of his models in real life with real wires and tubing. Granted, modeling programs are getting better and better, are a great tool especially for comparing some designs, but still do not 100% capture real life variables and one has to be cautious in trusting the modeling results as a gospel. Recent posts about ground, radials, counterpoise are one of the areas of possible discrepancies. Just like with the loading coils "controversy", the "ground thing" is a bit muddied up. Yuri, K3BU.us www.MVmanor.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
IMHO word of caution: LB Cebik was a great modeler, has done lot of work modeling various antennas, configurations etc but have not built most of his models in real life with real wires and tubing. Granted, modeling programs are getting better and better, are a great tool especially for comparing some designs, but still do not 100% capture real life variables and one has to be cautious in trusting the modeling results as a gospel. Recent posts about ground, radials, counterpoise are one of the areas of possible discrepancies. Just like with the loading coils "controversy", the "ground thing" is a bit muddied up. Yuri, K3BU.us www.MVmanor.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Blaine Date: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:05 pm Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting To: Julius Fazekas , W2PM Cc: "Mike(W5UC)" , Guy Olinger K2AV , topband@contesting.com > Cebik was one of the antenna greats. Co author of the ARRL > antenna handbook for some time. And a lot of his work is > preserved with > free access (you need to create a login though) on the cebik.com > web site. > > If you are serious about antennas, this is a great site. > > 73, Jeff ACØC > www.ac0c.com > > -Original Message- > From: Julius Fazekas > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:45 AM > To: W2PM > Cc: Mike(W5UC) ; Guy Olinger K2AV ; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > L. B. Cebik, W4RNL ~ 1939 - 2008 ~ SK as of April 2008 > > Julius Fazekas > N2WN > > > Tennessee Contest Group > http://k4tcg.org/ > http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en > > > Tennessee QSO Party > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > > Elecraft K2 #4455 > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > Elecraft K3/100 # > > > > From: W2PM > To: Julius Fazekas > Cc: Mike(W5UC) ; Guy Olinger K2AV > ; "topband@contesting.com" > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > Who is LB?? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:33, Julius Fazekas wrote: > > > I attended a presentation LB gave to the ETDXA shortly before > hi untimely death. I found him engaging and informative. He was > well > > thought of in East Tennessee. > > > > > > I have to say that when I became active again in 2003, I found > his website invaluable as a antenna resource. Some of the > language > > was repetitive, but the antennas built based on the articles > were quite effective. My 40m half square immediately comes to > mind. > > "Verticals without Vertigo" is still a favorite of mine. > > > > He did do antenna building/testing, but usually wire antennas > and he enjoyed PVC builds. Think it was more space limitations > than > > health issues. He was a great advocate of modelling. That, of > course, is still contentious to some schools of thought. > > > > As to gruff replies, ambiguous writings, dubious analysis, and > such, I know I've been guilty of that and experienced it from > > others. With some, we managed to get over the hump and find > common ground, with others it hasn't happened yet. > > > > > > I, for one, am thankful that folks like LB, Rudy, Jim, Tom and > others share and post useful information. They have helped me > more > > than hindered... > > > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and see you on the Top Band this > weekend in CQ WW DX! > > > > 73, > > Julius > > > > > > > > Julius Fazekas > > N2WN > > > > > > Tennessee Contest Group > > http://k4tcg.org/ > > http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en > > > > > > Tennessee QSO Party > > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > > > > > Elecraft K2 #4455 > > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > > Elecraft K3/100 # > > > > > > > > From: Guy Olinger K2AV > > To: Mike(W5UC) > > Cc: topband@contesting.com > > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:20 PM > > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > > > I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? > > > > His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional > licenses and > > did commercial modeling for some number of customers, > including a lot > > of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 > antennas. He > > did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would > explain> why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly > sure he did not >
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Cebik was one of the antenna greats. Co author of the ARRL antenna handbook for some time. And a lot of his work is preserved with free access (you need to create a login though) on the cebik.com web site. If you are serious about antennas, this is a great site. 73, Jeff ACØC www.ac0c.com -Original Message- From: Julius Fazekas Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:45 AM To: W2PM Cc: Mike(W5UC) ; Guy Olinger K2AV ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting L. B. Cebik, W4RNL ~ 1939 - 2008 ~ SK as of April 2008 Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://k4tcg.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 # From: W2PM To: Julius Fazekas Cc: Mike(W5UC) ; Guy Olinger K2AV ; "topband@contesting.com" Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting Who is LB?? Sent from my iPad On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:33, Julius Fazekas wrote: > I attended a presentation LB gave to the ETDXA shortly before hi untimely > death. I found him engaging and informative. He was well > thought of in East Tennessee. > > > I have to say that when I became active again in 2003, I found his website > invaluable as a antenna resource. Some of the language > was repetitive, but the antennas built based on the articles were quite > effective. My 40m half square immediately comes to mind. > "Verticals without Vertigo" is still a favorite of mine. > > He did do antenna building/testing, but usually wire antennas and he enjoyed > PVC builds. Think it was more space limitations than > health issues. He was a great advocate of modelling. That, of course, is > still contentious to some schools of thought. > > As to gruff replies, ambiguous writings, dubious analysis, and such, I know > I've been guilty of that and experienced it from > others. With some, we managed to get over the hump and find common ground, > with others it hasn't happened yet. > > > I, for one, am thankful that folks like LB, Rudy, Jim, Tom and others share > and post useful information. They have helped me more > than hindered... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and see you on the Top Band this weekend in CQ WW > DX! > > 73, > Julius > > > > Julius Fazekas > N2WN > > > Tennessee Contest Group > http://k4tcg.org/ > http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en > > > Tennessee QSO Party > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > > Elecraft K2 #4455 > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > Elecraft K3/100 # > > > ____ > From: Guy Olinger K2AV > To: Mike(W5UC) > Cc: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? > > His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional licenses and > did commercial modeling for some number of customers, including a lot > of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 antennas. He > did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would explain > why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly sure he did not > have the health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, > though he never complained. But all in all, I'm certainly better off > for him than without him. RIP, and let detractors look to their own > assumptions closets. I'm completely sure LB has far fewer detractors > than I do. I have a series of posts with him about the Wouff Houng > which I treasure. > > 73, Guy. > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Mike(W5UC) wrote: >> On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: >>> L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. >>> >>> Dave WX7G >>> On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: >>> >> I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I >> don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an >> e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of >> being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my >> problem and moved on. >> >> 73, >> Mike, W5UC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK >> > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
L. B. Cebik, W4RNL ~ 1939 - 2008 ~ SK as of April 2008 Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://k4tcg.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 # From: W2PM To: Julius Fazekas Cc: Mike(W5UC) ; Guy Olinger K2AV ; "topband@contesting.com" Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting Who is LB?? Sent from my iPad On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:33, Julius Fazekas wrote: > I attended a presentation LB gave to the ETDXA shortly before hi untimely > death. I found him engaging and informative. He was well thought of in East > Tennessee. > > > I have to say that when I became active again in 2003, I found his website > invaluable as a antenna resource. Some of the language was repetitive, but > the antennas built based on the articles were quite effective. My 40m half > square immediately comes to mind. "Verticals without Vertigo" is still a > favorite of mine. > > He did do antenna building/testing, but usually wire antennas and he enjoyed > PVC builds. Think it was more space limitations than health issues. He was a > great advocate of modelling. That, of course, is still contentious to some > schools of thought. > > As to gruff replies, ambiguous writings, dubious analysis, and such, I know > I've been guilty of that and experienced it from others. With some, we > managed to get over the hump and find common ground, with others it hasn't > happened yet. > > > I, for one, am thankful that folks like LB, Rudy, Jim, Tom and others share > and post useful information. They have helped me more than hindered... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and see you on the Top Band this weekend in CQ WW > DX! > > 73, > Julius > > > > Julius Fazekas > N2WN > > > Tennessee Contest Group > http://k4tcg.org/ > http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en > > > Tennessee QSO Party > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > > Elecraft K2 #4455 > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > Elecraft K3/100 # > > > ____ > From: Guy Olinger K2AV > To: Mike(W5UC) > Cc: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? > > His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional licenses and > did commercial modeling for some number of customers, including a lot > of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 antennas. He > did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would explain > why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly sure he did not > have the health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, > though he never complained. But all in all, I'm certainly better off > for him than without him. RIP, and let detractors look to their own > assumptions closets. I'm completely sure LB has far fewer detractors > than I do. I have a series of posts with him about the Wouff Houng > which I treasure. > > 73, Guy. > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Mike(W5UC) wrote: >> On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: >>> L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. >>> >>> Dave WX7G >>> On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: >>> >> I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I >> don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an >> e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of >> being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my >> problem and moved on. >> >> 73, >> Mike, W5UC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK >> > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Who is LB?? Sent from my iPad On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:33, Julius Fazekas wrote: > I attended a presentation LB gave to the ETDXA shortly before hi untimely > death. I found him engaging and informative. He was well thought of in East > Tennessee. > > > I have to say that when I became active again in 2003, I found his website > invaluable as a antenna resource. Some of the language was repetitive, but > the antennas built based on the articles were quite effective. My 40m half > square immediately comes to mind. "Verticals without Vertigo" is still a > favorite of mine. > > He did do antenna building/testing, but usually wire antennas and he enjoyed > PVC builds. Think it was more space limitations than health issues. He was a > great advocate of modelling. That, of course, is still contentious to some > schools of thought. > > As to gruff replies, ambiguous writings, dubious analysis, and such, I know > I've been guilty of that and experienced it from others. With some, we > managed to get over the hump and find common ground, with others it hasn't > happened yet. > > > I, for one, am thankful that folks like LB, Rudy, Jim, Tom and others share > and post useful information. They have helped me more than hindered... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and see you on the Top Band this weekend in CQ WW > DX! > > 73, > Julius > > > > Julius Fazekas > N2WN > > > Tennessee Contest Group > http://k4tcg.org/ > http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en > > > Tennessee QSO Party > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > > Elecraft K2 #4455 > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > Elecraft K3/100 # > > > ________ > From: Guy Olinger K2AV > To: Mike(W5UC) > Cc: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? > > His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional licenses and > did commercial modeling for some number of customers, including a lot > of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 antennas. He > did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would explain > why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly sure he did not > have the health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, > though he never complained. But all in all, I'm certainly better off > for him than without him. RIP, and let detractors look to their own > assumptions closets. I'm completely sure LB has far fewer detractors > than I do. I have a series of posts with him about the Wouff Houng > which I treasure. > > 73, Guy. > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Mike(W5UC) wrote: >> On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: >>> L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. >>> >>> Dave WX7G >>> On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: >>> >> I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I >> don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an >> e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of >> being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my >> problem and moved on. >> >> 73, >> Mike, W5UC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK >> > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
I attended a presentation LB gave to the ETDXA shortly before hi untimely death. I found him engaging and informative. He was well thought of in East Tennessee. I have to say that when I became active again in 2003, I found his website invaluable as a antenna resource. Some of the language was repetitive, but the antennas built based on the articles were quite effective. My 40m half square immediately comes to mind. "Verticals without Vertigo" is still a favorite of mine. He did do antenna building/testing, but usually wire antennas and he enjoyed PVC builds. Think it was more space limitations than health issues. He was a great advocate of modelling. That, of course, is still contentious to some schools of thought. As to gruff replies, ambiguous writings, dubious analysis, and such, I know I've been guilty of that and experienced it from others. With some, we managed to get over the hump and find common ground, with others it hasn't happened yet. I, for one, am thankful that folks like LB, Rudy, Jim, Tom and others share and post useful information. They have helped me more than hindered... Happy Thanksgiving to all and see you on the Top Band this weekend in CQ WW DX! 73, Julius Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://k4tcg.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 # From: Guy Olinger K2AV To: Mike(W5UC) Cc: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:20 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional licenses and did commercial modeling for some number of customers, including a lot of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 antennas. He did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would explain why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly sure he did not have the health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, though he never complained. But all in all, I'm certainly better off for him than without him. RIP, and let detractors look to their own assumptions closets. I'm completely sure LB has far fewer detractors than I do. I have a series of posts with him about the Wouff Houng which I treasure. 73, Guy. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Mike(W5UC) wrote: > On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: >> L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. >> >> Dave WX7G >> On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: >> > I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I > don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an > e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of > being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my > problem and moved on. > > 73, > Mike, W5UC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Thank you Gary. I concur completely. He was extremely helpful and patient with the likes of myself, whose "skill sets" were pretty basic. John EI7BA On 22/11/2011 19:44, Gary and Kathleen Pearse wrote: > I would second Paul's observation, and would add by asking if anyone else > here has offered similar broad subject information to the amateur community > in a similarly accessible format? > > His efforts may not be perfect (I don't know one way or another), but knowing > more and making it available are often not the same. > > He helped me whenever I had a question. I can ask no more from anyone. > > Gary, NL7Y > > >> As long as we're providing testimony against a defendant who is now a SK, I >> can counter those assertions by saying L.B. was extremely helpful to me as I >> began learning EZNEC. I had consulted with him on many occasions to clarify >> the design of various antennas and several link-coupled tuners. >> >> Paul, W9AC >> > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
I found LB to be a little enigmatic. But so what? His forte' was modelling. He had all the professional licenses and did commercial modeling for some number of customers, including a lot of unheralded primary work for the well-regarded Force 12 antennas. He did not do a lot of on-field verification himself, which would explain why some fairly suspect material remains. I'm fairly sure he did not have the health for the hard outdoor work that validation requires, though he never complained. But all in all, I'm certainly better off for him than without him. RIP, and let detractors look to their own assumptions closets. I'm completely sure LB has far fewer detractors than I do. I have a series of posts with him about the Wouff Houng which I treasure. 73, Guy. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Mike(W5UC) wrote: > On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: >> L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. >> >> Dave WX7G >> On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: >> > I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I > don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an > e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of > being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my > problem and moved on. > > 73, > Mike, W5UC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Hear! Hear! 73, Joe K2XX On 11/22/2011 2:16 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: > As long as we're providing testimony against a defendant who is now a SK, I > can counter those assertions by saying L.B. was extremely helpful to me as I > began learning EZNEC. I had consulted with him on many occasions to clarify > the design of various antennas and several link-coupled tuners. > > Paul, W9AC > > - Original Message - > From: "Mike(W5UC)" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 2:08 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > > >> I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I >> don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an >> e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of >> being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my >> problem and moved on. >> >> 73, >> Mike, W5UC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4632 - Release Date: 11/22/11 > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
I would second Paul's observation, and would add by asking if anyone else here has offered similar broad subject information to the amateur community in a similarly accessible format? His efforts may not be perfect (I don't know one way or another), but knowing more and making it available are often not the same. He helped me whenever I had a question. I can ask no more from anyone. Gary, NL7Y > As long as we're providing testimony against a defendant who is now a SK, I > can counter those assertions by saying L.B. was extremely helpful to me as I > began learning EZNEC. I had consulted with him on many occasions to clarify > the design of various antennas and several link-coupled tuners. > > Paul, W9AC > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
As long as we're providing testimony against a defendant who is now a SK, I can counter those assertions by saying L.B. was extremely helpful to me as I began learning EZNEC. I had consulted with him on many occasions to clarify the design of various antennas and several link-coupled tuners. Paul, W9AC - Original Message - From: "Mike(W5UC)" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 2:08 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I > don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an > e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of > being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my > problem and moved on. > > 73, > Mike, W5UC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. > > Dave WX7G > On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: > I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my problem and moved on. 73, Mike, W5UC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. Dave WX7G On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, "ZR" wrote: > Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a > college professor- duh! He certainly knew his > stuff, but his views were not necessarily > global at all times. Perception colors our > understanding of the world. > > ** Thats an understatement. I consider him one of the more blatant > plaigarizers who knew a lot less about antennas as he misled many to > believe. > > I happend to be in a meeting with him in GA when the company team I was > with > were making a presentation. His body language and questions gave a strong > impression of a blowhard which was somewhat confirmed by the looks others > on > his side were giving him. The after the meeting discussions on my side were > rather emphatic about the above. > > Carl > KM1H > > > > - Original Message - > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:45 AM > Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > > > > Cebik's paper on the counterpoise is interesting and > > perhaps useful, so far as it goes. I don't remember > > seeing any mention of voltage-fed antennas, however. > > If they are in that article, I missed them. > > > > Cebik mentions Woodrow Smith in connection with a > > 1948 antenna book. I don't know if this is the same > > 'Woody Smith', W6BCX, but I suspect it is. Woody > > Smith wrote an article in March 1948 CQ Magazine > > titled "Bet My Money on a Bobtail Beam." In that > > article, he is somewhat vague about the ground > > return for the center element, but is very clear > > that 'not much' of a ground is needed. In his > > Feb/Mar 1983 HR Mag. reprise of the Bobtail/Half > > Square antennas, he refers to the desirability of > > a 'ground screen', refraining from calling this > > small, rectangular grid a 'counterpoise'. But > > that's what it is, in today's usage. I called > > it that in my Bobtail pages, and will likely > > continue doing so. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page49.html > > > > Moxon, G6XN also refers extensively to the > > counterpoise in his favored half wave vertical > > antennas, and in his case, is talking about a > > pretty tiny piece of metal indeed. See" > > "HF Antennas For All Locations." by G6XN. > > > > Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a > > college professor- duh! He certainly knew his > > stuff, but his views were not necessarily > > global at all times. Perception colors our > > understanding of the world. > > > > Language is a living, growing thing. Cebik > > was probably right about the concept of the > > counterpoise having been 'muddied', but OTOH > > that horse is now long out of the barn. > > I very much doubt the word is going away any > > time soon, in ham 'circles'. Or squares or > > rectangles. Even elongated, skinny rectangles. > > > > I find K2AV's FCP (folded counterpoise) most > > intriguing, and I intend to give it a try here. > > My inverted L needs help. I am so over with > > crummy 'sparse radials'. What a waste. Also, > > I intend to shift more towards a longer L > > which more approximates voltage feed. Having > > a quarter wave L with the current point at > > ground level is just asking for poor > > performance IMO. > > > > 73, David K3KY > > > > > > > > ___ > > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > > > > - > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4030 - Release Date: 11/21/11 > > > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. ** Thats an understatement. I consider him one of the more blatant plaigarizers who knew a lot less about antennas as he misled many to believe. I happend to be in a meeting with him in GA when the company team I was with were making a presentation. His body language and questions gave a strong impression of a blowhard which was somewhat confirmed by the looks others on his side were giving him. The after the meeting discussions on my side were rather emphatic about the above. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > Cebik's paper on the counterpoise is interesting and > perhaps useful, so far as it goes. I don't remember > seeing any mention of voltage-fed antennas, however. > If they are in that article, I missed them. > > Cebik mentions Woodrow Smith in connection with a > 1948 antenna book. I don't know if this is the same > 'Woody Smith', W6BCX, but I suspect it is. Woody > Smith wrote an article in March 1948 CQ Magazine > titled "Bet My Money on a Bobtail Beam." In that > article, he is somewhat vague about the ground > return for the center element, but is very clear > that 'not much' of a ground is needed. In his > Feb/Mar 1983 HR Mag. reprise of the Bobtail/Half > Square antennas, he refers to the desirability of > a 'ground screen', refraining from calling this > small, rectangular grid a 'counterpoise'. But > that's what it is, in today's usage. I called > it that in my Bobtail pages, and will likely > continue doing so. > > http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page49.html > > Moxon, G6XN also refers extensively to the > counterpoise in his favored half wave vertical > antennas, and in his case, is talking about a > pretty tiny piece of metal indeed. See" > "HF Antennas For All Locations." by G6XN. > > Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a > college professor- duh! He certainly knew his > stuff, but his views were not necessarily > global at all times. Perception colors our > understanding of the world. > > Language is a living, growing thing. Cebik > was probably right about the concept of the > counterpoise having been 'muddied', but OTOH > that horse is now long out of the barn. > I very much doubt the word is going away any > time soon, in ham 'circles'. Or squares or > rectangles. Even elongated, skinny rectangles. > > I find K2AV's FCP (folded counterpoise) most > intriguing, and I intend to give it a try here. > My inverted L needs help. I am so over with > crummy 'sparse radials'. What a waste. Also, > I intend to shift more towards a longer L > which more approximates voltage feed. Having > a quarter wave L with the current point at > ground level is just asking for poor > performance IMO. > > 73, David K3KY > > > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4030 - Release Date: 11/21/11 > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Cebik's paper on the counterpoise is interesting and perhaps useful, so far as it goes. I don't remember seeing any mention of voltage-fed antennas, however. If they are in that article, I missed them. Cebik mentions Woodrow Smith in connection with a 1948 antenna book. I don't know if this is the same 'Woody Smith', W6BCX, but I suspect it is. Woody Smith wrote an article in March 1948 CQ Magazine titled "Bet My Money on a Bobtail Beam." In that article, he is somewhat vague about the ground return for the center element, but is very clear that 'not much' of a ground is needed. In his Feb/Mar 1983 HR Mag. reprise of the Bobtail/Half Square antennas, he refers to the desirability of a 'ground screen', refraining from calling this small, rectangular grid a 'counterpoise'. But that's what it is, in today's usage. I called it that in my Bobtail pages, and will likely continue doing so. http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page49.html Moxon, G6XN also refers extensively to the counterpoise in his favored half wave vertical antennas, and in his case, is talking about a pretty tiny piece of metal indeed. See" "HF Antennas For All Locations." by G6XN. Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. Language is a living, growing thing. Cebik was probably right about the concept of the counterpoise having been 'muddied', but OTOH that horse is now long out of the barn. I very much doubt the word is going away any time soon, in ham 'circles'. Or squares or rectangles. Even elongated, skinny rectangles. I find K2AV's FCP (folded counterpoise) most intriguing, and I intend to give it a try here. My inverted L needs help. I am so over with crummy 'sparse radials'. What a waste. Also, I intend to shift more towards a longer L which more approximates voltage feed. Having a quarter wave L with the current point at ground level is just asking for poor performance IMO. 73, David K3KY ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
- Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 9:28 AM Subject: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting > http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec06/cps.html > Apparently Cebik failed to do enough research thru 1920's literature.why doesnt this surprise me. The various magazines devoted to the consumer radio as well as the various radios instruction sheets include the counterpoise under the random length antenna. It was usually the option when a true ground connection was not available and its actual function was not fully understood yet except that it improved reception. A magazine article followed by MFJ's Artificial Ground was another attempt of using a counterpoise to eliminate RF problems in the shack by resonating that wire without any thought of placement or polarity. I have no idea if it worked but Radiokit sold many of their parts kit version. Carl KM1H ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec06/cps.html ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
