Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea (long, mostly anecdotal)
I suppose I should offer some comments on my experiences operating from a coastal Maine QTH. My contest station is on an island about 5 miles offshore from Portland, ME. The island is 3 miles long, about a half-mile wide, and lies along a line that runs pretty much NE-SW. My house is at the NE end of the island. I do not own the land down to the water, so my antennas are not right on the beach. My 160 antenna is a two-element array of quarter-wave-spaced inverted-Ls, each about 60 feet vertical and the rest sloping up to the 90-foot point on my tower. The center of the array is about 300 feet from a small cliff overlooking the water, and about 400 feet from the water to the east and south. The cliff is 20-30 feet high, depending on the tides, which are about10 feet in Casco Bay. Each vertical has about 30 radials on the ground, not very symmetrical due to the property lines, and varying in length from .1 to .25 wavelengths. I stopped adding radials when the feedpoint impedance of each element stopped changing significantly. The soil is forest muck, and ranges from 0 to 3 feet of depth before hitting rock. The system is fed with a Comtek 2-element phasing box, with the addition of an extra option of 180-degree phasing to yield a bidirectional end-fire pattern. I have had good results with this antenna system and location. I am usually among the first and often the first one through pileups for DX. The Reverse Beacon Network data shows that my 160M signal stacks up well against other Northeast U.S. stations, but is not the rock-crushing 10s-of-dB louder that fans of beachfront locations would suggest. Maybe if I owned the property across the street and could put up the same array with the front element in the water I would get that magic 10s-of-dB enhancement. But I don't, and as has been pointed out, maintenance of antennas right on the water is problematic, so being close to the water seems to be sufficient. In the 2013 CQ160 contest, my signal in Europe was about equal to W2GD and K3ZM, (300 and 400 miles south of me and right on the water), and a few dB below VY2ZM (450 miles closer to Europe). In previous contests, K8PO, also in Maine, but 10 miles inland and about 50 miles north of my QTH has a signal that is usually comparable to mine, using a single (real) vertical and a lot more (and longer) radials. He is louder than I am to the West and SW, since I have a bit of a hill behind me and his terrain is flat over a pond in that direction. I do have one secret weapon, and that is my receiving capability. I run a two-wire Beverage back in the woods on a friendly neighbor's land (starting about 700 feet from the water, and running over mostly rocky soil) during the winter months. I very often get reports from DX stations after contests that I was the only USA station that could copy them, and from well-equipped NE USA stations telling me that they could not hear most of the stations I was working. I have a wire 4-square for 80 at about the same distance from the water as the 160 array (which would make it twice as far back in wavelengths), and it also works quite well. Maybe it would work better right on the water, but it works well enough. On 20-10, I have some stacked Yagis, and as many commenters have noted, the only benefits to a salt-water foreground for horizontally-polarized antennas are a uniform surface in the Fresnel zone and lack of obstructions. I agree with them, but those effects can be significant. A few years ago, K0DQ ran an exhaustive analysis of RBN data after the CQWW CW contest, which he operated from the QTH of WW1WW. That station, in central NH about 75 miles inland, is on a hilltop with a very nice sloping foreground towards Europe, and stacks of high antennas. On 20-10M, my Maine station had a 1-2dB advantage over the much bigger antennas at the WW1WW station. That could be due to the antennas being at heights better matched to the optimum takeoff angles that weekend. I have often joked that the tides must have been right that weekend (and conversely, any time I lose a contest, I blame it on the tides). Modeling the 20-10M Yagis with and without the presence of the cliff shows some interesting effects. The higher-angle lobes are no different in the two cases, since the lower parts of the free-space vertical pattern hit the same (average soil) medium. However, the lower-angle lobes are pulled lower by the cliff (since the first reflection point is further away), and the higher efficiency of the salt water seems to add a dB or so to those lower-angle lobes in the far-field pattern in EZNEC. I suspect that for horizontal antennas, a nice sloping foreground towards the ocean would be terrific, even if it is a mile away. I have not yet figured out how to model a sloping foreground in EZNEC, so getting the heights right for the desired angles may require some experimentation. For verticals, getting closer to the water (even if not right ON the water) works quite well, and
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
Hi Herb, Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Herbert Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 4:24:19 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna. 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA ve...@nbnet.nb.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization? Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and have not yet decided on an antenna. Thanks, Mike VE9AA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
On 3 Apr 2015, at 18:19, donov...@starpower.net donov...@starpower.net wrote: Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. And you get an excellent view of the tower on final approach into Boston's Logan airport when arriving from UK. I made the pilgrimage to the tower a couple of years ago, happy memories of my first topband W. 73 Chris, G3SVL _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna. 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA ve...@nbnet.nb.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization? Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and have not yet decided on an antenna. Thanks, Mike VE9AA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
Another good example was D4B's 160 meter inverted-V Yagi that was setup near the edge of the bluff at the Monteverde contest site (now D4C). Al put in an incredible topband signal into the west coast of the USA. Once when I sent him an email complimenting him on his big signal, he wrote back and informed me that his amplifier was broken that weekend so he had been running in the low power category. I was totally floored. ZL8X also had a very good low power signal on topband. I think they were using an inverted-V up high in a tree along a cliff overlooking the ocean. 73, Mike W4EF.. On 4/3/2015 10:19 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Herb, Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Herbert Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 4:24:19 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna. 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA ve...@nbnet.nb.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization? Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and have not yet decided on an antenna. Thanks, Mike VE9AA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
One could also get an idea of driving you car across a causeway or bridge of a salt water inlet while listening to an AM station up on the high end of the AM band and observing the sometimes astounding weak signal enhancement. Many times also the power line noises and other industrial QRN is gone. In fact if there is one of these bridges or causeways near your QTH you might consider locating a SDR receiver, solar powered, with internet WI-max connection, loop antenna or Hi-Zi for the low bands, if of course you could convince the highway department that it was needed to collect scientific data or some other viable excuse. Such a device could be shared with other TB enthusiasts in your immediate area in order to help pay for the minor investment. I don't mean to start another round of debate on remote RX enhancement by a close proximity remote receiver but the experiences of ZL3IX and others has proven they can make the difference in hearing TB DX or not. Last month the entire power grid was down while I was listening to E30FB on TB with the big UPS battery backup running the rig. Out of nowhere I located him working EU's so I know I had a chance for a new country on 160. When the power returned and the amp warmed up I was able to get in the log with the 900 foot Beverage 90 degree used on RX. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/3/2015 2:50 PM, Chris G3SVL wrote: On 3 Apr 2015, at 18:19, donov...@starpower.net donov...@starpower.net wrote: Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. And you get an excellent view of the tower on final approach into Boston's Logan airport when arriving from UK. I made the pilgrimage to the tower a couple of years ago, happy memories of my first topband W. 73 Chris, G3SVL _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
One could also get an idea of driving you car across a causeway or bridge of a salt water inlet while listening to an AM station up on the high end of the AM band and observing the sometimes astounding weak signal enhancement. Many times also the power line noises and other industrial QRN is gone. So true unless you happen to be in the blessed state of Connecticut where AMTRAK follows the coastline incredibly closely from one end to the other. AMTRAK's overhead power lines are constantly exposed to salty moisture after years of this environment, often makes for horrific RFI. The railway has affected CT in access to the ocean as well, you have to find an over or underpass to get past the railway and there aren't many of them. There's no RR crossings I know of. the coastline being flat and so close to the water means most of the ocean inlets have RR bridges that are so close to the water that most boats with a windshield can't get through at high tide, forget having one with a cabin. As an AMTRAK passenger you do get a spectacular view to the East. As I've mentioned here before, I'm right on a salt marsh and AMTRAK is less than 50' from my property about 100' from my antennas. When AMTRAK is acting up, AM station reception around here is not so spectacular. Once you get into the clear the reception on salt water is fantastic. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
What a fantastic location. Looking at the houses surrounding it reminds me of a google maps view I checked out of the Sphinx Pyramids recently, I had no idea they were surrounded by houses. Makes me appreciate rural mountain top sites all the more. 73, Gary KA1J This is a photo of the famous W1BB water tower in Winthrop, MA. http://www.sylviaplath.info/photos/winthrop9.jpg I've seen it many times flying into Boston Logan Airport. The photo was apparently taken at low tide. Europe is off towards the upper right hand corner of the photo, the runways are only a mile away. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: donov...@starpower.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 5:19:11 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Hi Herb, Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Herbert Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 4:24:19 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna. 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA ve...@nbnet.nb.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization? Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and have not yet decided on an antenna. Thanks, Mike VE9AA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
Just two years DU7ET worked WAS on 160m using an inverted V. Robert had a good signal long path almost every day for six months. By the way , he told me he will be active from DU7ET again starting is October. 73 JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 1:19 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Hi Herb, Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Herbert Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 4:24:19 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna. 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA ve...@nbnet.nb.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization? Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and have not yet decided on an antenna. Thanks, Mike VE9AA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea
This is a photo of the famous W1BB water tower in Winthrop, MA. http://www.sylviaplath.info/photos/winthrop9.jpg I've seen it many times flying into Boston Logan Airport. The photo was apparently taken at low tide. Europe is off towards the upper right hand corner of the photo, the runways are only a mile away. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: donov...@starpower.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 5:19:11 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Hi Herb, Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the ocean. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Herbert Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 4:24:19 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna. 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA ve...@nbnet.nb.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization? Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and have not yet decided on an antenna. Thanks, Mike VE9AA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
