Topband: Radial Wire Source
Consolidated Electronic Wire and Cable http://www.conwire.com/ sells bulk quantities of solid copper tinned wire, available in many AWG sizes. Prices seem to track copper commodities prices.image that. 73, Terry K4RX ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
> You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used > for grounds. Solid wire lasts longer, and is easier to connect to later because it is easier to remove all corrosion without chemical cleaning or strand-by-strand cleaning. Also beware of gutting old wires, because some (like twinlead) are copper clad steel with thin copper. After a while, it will rust apart. Nothing lasts like solid copper. I use #16 tinned copper buss wire, bought on 5000 foot reels. Stuff installed in 1998 looks like new when I dig it up, and lightning never has melted it. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a > well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur > radio. >> The only reason 120 radials were ever used is because the FCC excludes some complex verification measurements when a standardized system they chose is used. It has nothing to do with how it works. Often, 30-50 radials is immeasurably different than 120. > Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always > achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever > it is possible. That is always the best advice, because even similar systems and locations can be different. Also, measured base resistance does not translate into efficiency. I've had 1/4 wave verticals with ground systems making 50-60 ohm base resistance equal in performance to the same antenna, at the exact same spot, with radial systems making 35 ohm base impedances. This is because radials have standing waves, even buried radials, and transform impedance. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
On 6/5/2012 2:08 PM, Lloyd Berg N9LB wrote in part: > I like the direct copper to soil DC contact rather than laying insulated wire > on/in the ground. Also the solid bare copper wire won't leach away into the > soil for 40-50 years. > > Never bury bare stranded wire because it disintegrates way too fast, > which is why the National Electrical Code requires that all ground wire > be solid. > > Lloyd, I don't think that statement, about you having any benefit of bare copper in contact with earth, is completely correct. I always thought the whole purpose of a good ground system under a Marconi type vertical antenna was to make the currents flow in a highly conductive medium rather than in a lossy one like soil. (Which varies in conductivity all over the place.) Under you vertical on 160 is the one place you don't want your RF return path currents to flow is in a dissipating diaelectric soil with bare copper wire in contact with it. IMHO the radial system replaces the lossy medium by replacing it with a highly conductive medium. Reading the wonderful material from Guy, K2AV, I think demonstrates that principle, irrespective of the lack of quality of earth underneath, is found in his FCP counter poise design. So I would think that insulated wire laying on the ground or just below the grass is not only the easiest way to go but may also be more efficient. Laying inexpensive solid or stranded #16 on the grass held in place by fencing hook or large stapes pounded down in the earth will bury themselves under the growing grass mat in a few weeks, enough so that a mower or a string trier will not snag them. Another issue today is that if copper thieves see bare wire they will just rip it out of the ground. Insulated #16 stranded is essentially worthless to them. Herb, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
I buy 5,000 foot reels (which is the minimum order from my supplier) of 18 awg solid copper wire from a local wholesale wire supply house. You should be able to get most electrical supply houses to order that for you. My local shop I've worked with for years, they specialize in communications and security wire but can order just about anything. Pricing was around $53/1,000 feet. -Bill > On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > > I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work > work with. > > I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, > and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would > love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in > quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a > quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
A number of years ago I got a partially used bucket (spool in a bucket) of #18 solid copper wire from a motor rewinding shop. The wire had a thin coat of enamel-like HV insulation on it so it was impervious to any degrading from soil or other elements. I had to scrape off the insulation to solder, but otherwise it was real good stuff. I got a few thousand feet for not much money. - Wes Attaway (N5WA) --- 1138 Waters Edge Circle, Shreveport, LA 71106 318-797-4972 (Office) - 318-393-3289 (Cell) Computer Consulting and Forensics -- EnCase Certified Examiner --- -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:18 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire source On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work with. I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
Hi Dan! I use #12 solid solid copper THHN "house wire" - around here Menards has the best price, HD has gotten very expensive in the last year. I strip the insulation off with a little jig I made utilizing an imbedded utility knife blade. I like the direct copper to soil DC contact rather than laying insulated wire on/in the ground. Also the solid bare copper wire won't leach away into the soil for 40-50 years. Never bury bare stranded wire because it disintegrates way too fast, which is why the National Electrical Code requires that all ground wire be solid. 73 Lloyd - N9LB On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote: > I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances > changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was > thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go > with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 > radials that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per > W8JI website) , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for > the remaining 40 or 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from > about SW thru North over to East. > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check > with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly > they weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for > $50 I would need about 3000 feet. > > Dan > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
I used to buy huge spools of #16 tinned copper "bus wire" from Interstate Wire and Cable in Dallas, TX. The price was fairly good compared to building wire from the home store. I built a grid with 3x3 foot spacing, so insulated wire was out, and tinning was a real plus for soldering the crossovers. After 10 years on the ground, the grid is still in good shape. Rick N6RK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
and then there's the 6000 ft spool of insulated, tinned #16 that I found at the Dayton flea market for $20. It'll probably outlast me. 73, Pete N4ZR The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com, spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 On 6/5/2012 12:38 PM, Eric Tichansky NO3M wrote: > Also check what might be available from the Wireman. I picked up > a 5000 ft spool of twin-lead (#18?) from them a couple years ago > for $100. It was a bit of a job splitting it, mainly from the > tendency to twist when pulling the insulation apart in the > middle. However, cutting to the desired radial length and > connecting one end to a pulley w/ a pivot took care of that. > Having two people pulling it apart while walking out from center > also helps to keep tension on both wires and avoid it balling up > where it is splitting/twisting. All said and done, 1+ ft of > radials for about $0.01/ft and it's held up fine over the past > two years. > > 73 - Eric NO3M > > On 06/05/12 12:18, Jim Brown wrote: >> I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, >> and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would >> love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in >> quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a >> quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
Also check what might be available from the Wireman. I picked up a 5000 ft spool of twin-lead (#18?) from them a couple years ago for $100. It was a bit of a job splitting it, mainly from the tendency to twist when pulling the insulation apart in the middle. However, cutting to the desired radial length and connecting one end to a pulley w/ a pivot took care of that. Having two people pulling it apart while walking out from center also helps to keep tension on both wires and avoid it balling up where it is splitting/twisting. All said and done, 1+ ft of radials for about $0.01/ft and it's held up fine over the past two years. 73 - Eric NO3M On 06/05/12 12:18, Jim Brown wrote: > I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, > and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would > love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in > quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a > quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work > with. I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work with. Dave WX7G On Jun 5, 2012 9:23 AM, "W2XJ" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used > for grounds. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a > well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur > radio. Anything beyond 12 1/8 wavelength radials is a plus. I would > check an electrical wholesaler and price bare copper in bulk. Usually > #10 is used but I see no serious reason why #12 or even #14 would work > in this application. I prefer a buried ground (or at least on the > surface) over elevated for various reasons. > > Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always > achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever > it is possible. > > On 6/5/12 9:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote: > > I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances > changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was > thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with > the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that > in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , > then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 > radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to > East. > > > > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check > with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they > weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I > would need about 3000 feet. > > > > Dan > > ___ > > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used for grounds. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur radio. Anything beyond 12 1/8 wavelength radials is a plus. I would check an electrical wholesaler and price bare copper in bulk. Usually #10 is used but I see no serious reason why #12 or even #14 would work in this application. I prefer a buried ground (or at least on the surface) over elevated for various reasons. Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever it is possible. On 6/5/12 9:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote: > I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed > and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was thinking > of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with the > radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that in > theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , then I > was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 radials. > My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to East. > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check with > the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they weren't > much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I would need > about 3000 feet. > > Dan > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
Going with #14 would be fine for the first 4-8 if you are keeping a running log of measurements; otherwise its overkill. As far as pricing the local surplus dealer has any gauge at $3 a pound and Ive seen it cheaper at scrap metal dealers. My old systems used #18, on the ground and later elevated. If on the ground a layer of mesh out to 50' or so is better by far as a starting point. That has been discussed on here many times. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Dan Bookwalter" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:01 AM Subject: Topband: radial wire source >I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed >and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was > thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go > with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials > that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) > , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or > 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over > to East. > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check > with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they > weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I > would need about 3000 feet. > > Dan > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5046 - Release Date: 06/05/12 > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: radial wire source
I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to East. Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I would need about 3000 feet. Dan ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
