Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Ed Sawyer]

I guess that this question was pretty useless for this group.  Sorry for
asking.

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

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Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[K1FZ-Bruce]

 
The move to receiver roofing filters has been successful due to a 
large benefit to DXers and many others. 
 
Worldwide consolidation of S meters may be similar to nailing jello to a tree. 
 
But with smaller groups agreements are possible. 
 

I liked the 5x5 reports. USAR
 
73
Bruce-K1FZ 
 
www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 03:42:19 -0500, Ed Sawyer  wrote:

  I guess that this question was pretty useless for this group. Sorry for
asking. 


73

Ed N1UR

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Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Ed Sawyer]

The 5NN discussion brought up an interesting subject to me.  Signal
strengths reported on 75M SSB are funny to listen too as people seem to be
in a "mines bigger than yours" competition on how many dB above S9 a signal
is.  Meanwhile their noise floor is probably S7 or more - what's the point?

 

Here at N1UR, on 160, I have switchable T verticals (EU direction and Omni).
I NEVER listen on them.  Nighttime noise floor is typically S5 - 7 in the
winter on them with static crashes well over S9 if there is storming in the
east half of the US (for CW).  I have done some signal strength comparisons
with EU stations and Carib stations vs my beverages.  

 

Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages.  The received
noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased
EU beverages is S0 to S1.  I have found the signal strengths of the received
stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on
the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise
floor by a 1 or 2 S units.  Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the
beverage preamp.  The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only
1 to 2 S units.  I often drop in  some attenuation to make the noise floor
"just" go away.

 

What do others see as the difference in transmit antenna vs low noise
antenna signal strengths?

 

N1UR

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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Tom W8JI]

Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received
noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my 
phased
EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the 
received
stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger 
on

the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise
floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the
beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise 
only

1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor
"just" go away.

If the signal comes up 3-4 S units and the noise 1-2 S units, the meter is 
nonlinear. This is typical for many receivers. Some are as little as 1 dB 
per S unit down low on the scale.  Most meters (it was years ago I looked) 
were 3 to 5 dB per S unit up at the high scale end.


The entire idea of S readings is for many uncontrollable reasons.. 
meaningless.


There have been various campaigns over the years to correct reports, but 
none can ever mean anything.


It is silly getting all worked up because we **think** S meters and S 
reports are like precision dial calipers, when they are really like marks on 
a rubber band. 


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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[C Allen Baker via Topband]

 

On Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:52 AM, Ed Sawyer  
wrote:
 

 The 5NN discussion brought up an interesting subject to me.  Signal
strengths reported on 75M SSB are funny to listen too as people seem to be
in a "mines bigger than yours" competition on how many dB above S9 a signal
is.  Meanwhile their noise floor is probably S7 or more - what's the point?

 

Here at N1UR, on 160, I have switchable T verticals (EU direction and Omni).
I NEVER listen on them.  Nighttime noise floor is typically S5 - 7 in the
winter on them with static crashes well over S9 if there is storming in the
east half of the US (for CW).  I have done some signal strength comparisons
with EU stations and Carib stations vs my beverages.  

 

Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages.  The received
noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased
EU beverages is S0 to S1.  I have found the signal strengths of the received
stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on
the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise
floor by a 1 or 2 S units.  Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the
beverage preamp.  The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only
1 to 2 S units.  I often drop in  some attenuation to make the noise floor
"just" go away.

 

What do others see as the difference in transmit antenna vs low noise
antenna signal strengths?

 

N1UR

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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Joel Harrison]

>From my perspective, "S" meter readings cannot give an accurate
representation of your station's RX performance, or at least it never has
for me, because evaluating or comparing signal levels would be very
difficult.

I use a calibrated panadapter where I get very good documentation of my
noise floor, in dBm, to begin with. Noise floor's will very from station
to station and given your QTH will vary from direction to direction if
your RX system is working properly. This also allows me to keep records of
my noise floor to identify any changes over time (if you don't, you
should!). If someone really likes to jack up a lot of "preamp gain" that
does nothing but cause related problems and you can definitely have a
signal "10 over" but your noise floor may be close to the same!!!

You don't need a preamp or a bunch of extra RX gain just because your
buddy told you so!! There are lots of good info out there to educate
yourself on whether you do or not (also a lot of BAD info!). Start with
W8JI's tutorial.

After evaluating my noise floor I then compare signal strengths to their
level above my noise floor, in dB, and never pay attention to my S meter.
This gives me accurate comparison to record day to day, or over time,
changes in my station, changes in propagation or several other factors.
That is vital in keeping my station working at an effective level, or to
compare when making improvements.

As far as "RST" goes, it would be awkward, but more meaningful for me to
send "S -120dB NF -128" for signal and noise floor levels rather than
"RST" but in reality for me whether I can actually copy the other stations
information (call sign, whatever report, etc) is what is important. If I
can copy it all clearly, regardless to signal level, it is a strength of
"9". I am very familiar with the history of the "RST" system but in
reality how applicable is it today with today's technology?

For my operating, it is just an exchange of information, for my station's
performance records, it is meaningless.

73 Joel W5ZN


www.w5zn.org

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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Jim Garland]

Here, 160m vertical had noise floor this AM of -103 dbm, with beverages (720 
ft), about -118 dbm, measured with Flex 6300. No need for a preamp.BTW, 160 was 
poor this morning.
Jim W8ZR

> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of C Allen 
> Baker via
> Topband
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 06:29 AM
> To: sawye...@earthlink.net; topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:52 AM, Ed Sawyer <sawye...@earthlink.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
>  The 5NN discussion brought up an interesting subject to me.  Signal
> strengths reported on 75M SSB are funny to listen too as people seem to be
> in a "mines bigger than yours" competition on how many dB above S9 a signal
> is.  Meanwhile their noise floor is probably S7 or more - what's the point?
> 
> 
> 
> Here at N1UR, on 160, I have switchable T verticals (EU direction and Omni).
> I NEVER listen on them.  Nighttime noise floor is typically S5 - 7 in the
> winter on them with static crashes well over S9 if there is storming in the
> east half of the US (for CW).  I have done some signal strength comparisons
> with EU stations and Carib stations vs my beverages.
> 
> 
> 
> Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages.  The received
> noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased
> EU beverages is S0 to S1.  I have found the signal strengths of the received
> stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on
> the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise
> floor by a 1 or 2 S units.  Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the
> beverage preamp.  The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only
> 1 to 2 S units.  I often drop in  some attenuation to make the noise floor
> "just" go away.
> 
> 
> 
> What do others see as the difference in transmit antenna vs low noise
> antenna signal strengths?
> 
> 
> 
> N1UR
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[MU 4CX250B]

Agree with Tom. My Flex 6300 calibrates signal strength directly in
dbm, which makes a lot more sense to me than S-units. I've checked it
with a switched attenuator, and it's quite accurate. The log scale of
the display makes it's very easy to see the effects of attenuators,
preamplifiers, RX antennas, etc.
jim w8zr

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

>> Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received
>> noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased
>> EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the received
>> stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on
>> the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise
>> floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the
>> beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only
>> 1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor
>> "just" go away.
> If the signal comes up 3-4 S units and the noise 1-2 S units, the meter is 
> nonlinear. This is typical for many receivers. Some are as little as 1 dB per 
> S unit down low on the scale.  Most meters (it was years ago I looked) were 3 
> to 5 dB per S unit up at the high scale end.
>
> The entire idea of S readings is for many uncontrollable reasons.. 
> meaningless.
>
> There have been various campaigns over the years to correct reports, but none 
> can ever mean anything.
>
> It is silly getting all worked up because we **think** S meters and S reports 
> are like precision dial calipers, when they are really like marks on a rubber 
> band.
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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Tom W8JI]

marks on a rubber band.



Great analogy Tom.If I were truthful with the signal reports for most 
of

the topband DX worked here, using the S-meter with RX loops, I would be
sending "209".


I don't know how to really express it, but our S meters have index marks 
that say the same thing but all read (because of many variables) different 
things.


It's like have voltmeters where on some meters 1 volt is .529 volts and on 
others one volt is 8.7 volts. It isn't just the receiver (which are poor 
enough), it is the IF filter, local noise, antenna gain, and everything 
else.


If we dispense with the S meter and go by ear, it can get even worse. I 
don't anyone who can listen to a receiver without looking at an S meter and 
tell levels from one through nine based on sound.


Why anyone would criticize other people or contests for something we should 
all know is either next to meaningless at worse, or cannot ever be accurate 
at best,  is beyond my comprehension.


If you like the guy, give him an S9. If you don't, tell him he is S1. 


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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Steve Flood]

>> marks on a rubber band.


Great analogy Tom.If I were truthful with the signal reports for most of
the topband DX worked here, using the S-meter with RX loops, I would be
sending "209".

Steve KK7UV




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Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths

[Louis Parascondola via Topband]

Give me an S1 and I won't answer any more of you CQ's.  So there!

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: Tom W8JI <w...@w8ji.com>
To: Steve Flood <kk...@bresnan.net>
Cc: Topband <Topband@contesting.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 9, 2016 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths


>>> marks on a rubber band.
>
>
> Great analogy Tom.If I were truthful with the signal reports for most 
> of
> the topband DX worked here, using the S-meter with RX loops, I would be
> sending "209".

I don't know how to really express it, but our S meters have index marks 
that say the same thing but all read (because of many variables) different 
things.

It's like have voltmeters where on some meters 1 volt is .529 volts and on 
others one volt is 8.7 volts. It isn't just the receiver (which are poor 
enough), it is the IF filter, local noise, antenna gain, and everything 
else.

If we dispense with the S meter and go by ear, it can get even worse. I 
don't anyone who can listen to a receiver without looking at an S meter and 
tell levels from one through nine based on sound.

Why anyone would criticize other people or contests for something we should 
all know is either next to meaningless at worse, or cannot ever be accurate 
at best,  is beyond my comprehension.

If you like the guy, give him an S9. If you don't, tell him he is S1. 

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