Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
How much has the noise floor increased between the 1960's and today? Hearing/working EU on TB is *always* a treat for me. 73/DX Steve NN4X -- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 15:12:59 +0800 From: Steve Ireland To: "topband@contesting.com" Subject: Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m Message-ID: <10560e$4pa...@rpt-glb-asav6.external.tpg.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" G?day all Some food for thought. Like Roger G3YRO and others who were teenage UK radio amateurs in the 1960s/1970s I grew up radio-wise on 160m. In those days, the holy grail was to work across the Atlantic from UK/Europe. Nowadays, living in Western Australia, it seems quite funny to think that working from Europe to into the east coast of North America is something that is still considered as real DX working on topband, as the distance is not relatively long and there is no shortage of stations (in theory!) at either end. Back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, UK stations (and others in Europe) could only legally use 10W DC input, so working this distance was really difficult and thus ?serious DX?. However, as the 1970s progressed, there were TL-922 linear amplifiers in use at various G-DXers (but of course, ahem, never on 160m). Some years after this, 400W output became both legal and commonplace below 1832KHz in the UK. Anyhow, my point is that the distance from Europe/the UK to east coast USA is relatively short ? from the UK?s Newcastle Upon Tyne (where Roger lives) to New York is about 3,330 miles (about 5,360 km) as the crow flies. This is a very similar distance from Perth, Western Australia to Auckland, New Zealand ? but no serious Southern Hemisphere topband DXer would consider a contact between VK6 and ZL1 as a DX contact. ? On the other hand, Perth to Newcastle Upon Tyne is 9,056 miles (14,574 km) while New York to Perth is 11,613 miles (18,690km). That to me is DX. But Australia (Perth in particular) is a long way away from anywhere else. All a question of perspective, history and where you live I guess. ? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD/VY2LF Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -- _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: working 'long' distances on 160m
Hi Roger These days I usually only get on 160m for the various Stew Perry TBDCs. They are still fun but my internal time clock has changed and no longer enjoy getting up regularly at sunrise to work Europe on 160m! My most used band these days is 10m, which has sensible operating hours. However, VK6 is still well represented on 160m by Kev VK6LW and Phil VK6GX. Kev is a night owl and will get on for European sunset, while Phil is an early bird and still operates at VK6 sunrise. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ (VL6T in contests) Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
One of the HFTA arrival angle charts shows the very low angles EU - PNW on 80m. These are calculated values. One way to measure arrival angles is to real time compare S/N on a vertical vs a dipole. From good modeling, the specific antennas can be "calibrated" gain vs elevation and the comparison of elevation gains approximates the arrival angle. I've not done it, I'm sure it isn't easy. Another article I read (9/14 Radcom) stated (80m) “Very good” propagation – 7 SoCal stations averaged 5 degrees “Poor” propagation - 10 east coast stations were 43 +/- 10 degrees Verified by my 40ft high 80m dipole near Boston vs a 2L 100ft elements 80m beam at 157ft that does less well from Redmond. To measure 160m arrival angles, it might take the full size dipole W8JI had up at 300ft vs his verticals. His comments about relative performance are interesting. w8ji.com (don't have the exact link) I made a local club presentation about various 80m antennas & broadband dipoles from PNW to EU. If anybody wants a copy, email me off list. Grant KZ1W On 9/25/2022 11:42, Artek Manuals wrote: Grant Having lived in both Spokane and Boston area I can validate you observation in a general way and I am now in Florida where the game still played differently again than either I am REALLY INTRIGUED by you comment "Arrival angles for 80 peak at less than 10 degrees" . How did you measure that? Actually "measuring" vs hypothesizing has always confounded me when it comes to measuring ACTUAL arrival angles Dave NR1DX On 9/25/2022 10:25 AM, Grant Saviers wrote: My perspective as originally a "1" in Boston and now residing near Seattle, is the nickname "suffering sevens" is well applied to my friends here in the Pacific Northwest. Simply, for the PNW, distance isn't that meaningful - it's path that matters (and latitude). What was easy in Boston at 42N is very hard in Seattle at 48N re EU on both 80 and 160. The path is mostly over land or ice and usually thru or around the edge of the aurora zone. Arrival angles for 80 peak at less than 10*. OTOH, JA's- yawn. Almost exactly the same 4790 miles either way, Seattle to Tokyo or London. So when you hear a "suffering seven" in EU, reach out. We also get a chuckle when "the band is open" messages get posted from EU and what we hear is only noise. I did get TB DXCC, all from PNW since 2018, so am not complaining. Just want some more ;) . Grant KZ1W On 9/25/2022 00:12, Steve Ireland wrote: G’day all Some food for thought. Like Roger G3YRO and others who were teenage UK radio amateurs in the 1960s/1970s I grew up radio-wise on 160m. In those days, the holy grail was to work across the Atlantic from UK/Europe. Nowadays, living in Western Australia, it seems quite funny to think that working from Europe to into the east coast of North America is something that is still considered as real DX working on topband, as the distance is not relatively long and there is no shortage of stations (in theory!) at either end. Back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, UK stations (and others in Europe) could only legally use 10W DC input, so working this distance was really difficult and thus ‘serious DX’. However, as the 1970s progressed, there were TL-922 linear amplifiers in use at various G-DXers (but of course, ahem, never on 160m). Some years after this, 400W output became both legal and commonplace below 1832KHz in the UK. Anyhow, my point is that the distance from Europe/the UK to east coast USA is relatively short – from the UK’s Newcastle Upon Tyne (where Roger lives) to New York is about 3,330 miles (about 5,360 km) as the crow flies. This is a very similar distance from Perth, Western Australia to Auckland, New Zealand – but no serious Southern Hemisphere topband DXer would consider a contact between VK6 and ZL1 as a DX contact. On the other hand, Perth to Newcastle Upon Tyne is 9,056 miles (14,574 km) while New York to Perth is 11,613 miles (18,690km). That to me is DX. But Australia (Perth in particular) is a long way away from anywhere else. All a question of perspective, history and where you live I guess. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD/VY2LF Sent from Mail for Windows 10 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
Grant Having lived in both Spokane and Boston area I can validate you observation in a general way and I am now in Florida where the game still played differently again than either I am REALLY INTRIGUED by you comment "Arrival angles for 80 peak at less than 10 degrees" . How did you measure that? Actually "measuring" vs hypothesizing has always confounded me when it comes to measuring ACTUAL arrival angles Dave NR1DX On 9/25/2022 10:25 AM, Grant Saviers wrote: My perspective as originally a "1" in Boston and now residing near Seattle, is the nickname "suffering sevens" is well applied to my friends here in the Pacific Northwest. Simply, for the PNW, distance isn't that meaningful - it's path that matters (and latitude). What was easy in Boston at 42N is very hard in Seattle at 48N re EU on both 80 and 160. The path is mostly over land or ice and usually thru or around the edge of the aurora zone. Arrival angles for 80 peak at less than 10*. OTOH, JA's- yawn. Almost exactly the same 4790 miles either way, Seattle to Tokyo or London. So when you hear a "suffering seven" in EU, reach out. We also get a chuckle when "the band is open" messages get posted from EU and what we hear is only noise. I did get TB DXCC, all from PNW since 2018, so am not complaining. Just want some more ;) . Grant KZ1W On 9/25/2022 00:12, Steve Ireland wrote: G’day all Some food for thought. Like Roger G3YRO and others who were teenage UK radio amateurs in the 1960s/1970s I grew up radio-wise on 160m. In those days, the holy grail was to work across the Atlantic from UK/Europe. Nowadays, living in Western Australia, it seems quite funny to think that working from Europe to into the east coast of North America is something that is still considered as real DX working on topband, as the distance is not relatively long and there is no shortage of stations (in theory!) at either end. Back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, UK stations (and others in Europe) could only legally use 10W DC input, so working this distance was really difficult and thus ‘serious DX’. However, as the 1970s progressed, there were TL-922 linear amplifiers in use at various G-DXers (but of course, ahem, never on 160m). Some years after this, 400W output became both legal and commonplace below 1832KHz in the UK. Anyhow, my point is that the distance from Europe/the UK to east coast USA is relatively short – from the UK’s Newcastle Upon Tyne (where Roger lives) to New York is about 3,330 miles (about 5,360 km) as the crow flies. This is a very similar distance from Perth, Western Australia to Auckland, New Zealand – but no serious Southern Hemisphere topband DXer would consider a contact between VK6 and ZL1 as a DX contact. On the other hand, Perth to Newcastle Upon Tyne is 9,056 miles (14,574 km) while New York to Perth is 11,613 miles (18,690km). That to me is DX. But Australia (Perth in particular) is a long way away from anywhere else. All a question of perspective, history and where you live I guess. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD/VY2LF Sent from Mail for Windows 10 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector -- Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
Excellent post, Grant, key points of which were driven home to me by O(T Topbander NI6T not long after I moved to NorCal from Chicago. It's not the miles, it's the path. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/25/2022 7:25 AM, Grant Saviers wrote: My perspective as originally a "1" in Boston and now residing near Seattle, is the nickname "suffering sevens" is well applied to my friends here in the Pacific Northwest. Simply, for the PNW, distance isn't that meaningful - it's path that matters (and latitude). What was easy in Boston at 42N is very hard in Seattle at 48N re EU on both 80 and 160. The path is mostly over land or ice and usually thru or around the edge of the aurora zone. Arrival angles for 80 peak at less than 10*. OTOH, JA's- yawn. Almost exactly the same 4790 miles either way, Seattle to Tokyo or London. So when you hear a "suffering seven" in EU, reach out. We also get a chuckle when "the band is open" messages get posted from EU and what we hear is only noise. I did get TB DXCC, all from PNW since 2018, so am not complaining. Just want some more ;) . Grant KZ1W _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
My perspective as originally a "1" in Boston and now residing near Seattle, is the nickname "suffering sevens" is well applied to my friends here in the Pacific Northwest. Simply, for the PNW, distance isn't that meaningful - it's path that matters (and latitude). What was easy in Boston at 42N is very hard in Seattle at 48N re EU on both 80 and 160. The path is mostly over land or ice and usually thru or around the edge of the aurora zone. Arrival angles for 80 peak at less than 10*. OTOH, JA's- yawn. Almost exactly the same 4790 miles either way, Seattle to Tokyo or London. So when you hear a "suffering seven" in EU, reach out. We also get a chuckle when "the band is open" messages get posted from EU and what we hear is only noise. I did get TB DXCC, all from PNW since 2018, so am not complaining. Just want some more ;) . Grant KZ1W On 9/25/2022 00:12, Steve Ireland wrote: G’day all Some food for thought. Like Roger G3YRO and others who were teenage UK radio amateurs in the 1960s/1970s I grew up radio-wise on 160m. In those days, the holy grail was to work across the Atlantic from UK/Europe. Nowadays, living in Western Australia, it seems quite funny to think that working from Europe to into the east coast of North America is something that is still considered as real DX working on topband, as the distance is not relatively long and there is no shortage of stations (in theory!) at either end. Back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, UK stations (and others in Europe) could only legally use 10W DC input, so working this distance was really difficult and thus ‘serious DX’. However, as the 1970s progressed, there were TL-922 linear amplifiers in use at various G-DXers (but of course, ahem, never on 160m). Some years after this, 400W output became both legal and commonplace below 1832KHz in the UK. Anyhow, my point is that the distance from Europe/the UK to east coast USA is relatively short – from the UK’s Newcastle Upon Tyne (where Roger lives) to New York is about 3,330 miles (about 5,360 km) as the crow flies. This is a very similar distance from Perth, Western Australia to Auckland, New Zealand – but no serious Southern Hemisphere topband DXer would consider a contact between VK6 and ZL1 as a DX contact. On the other hand, Perth to Newcastle Upon Tyne is 9,056 miles (14,574 km) while New York to Perth is 11,613 miles (18,690km). That to me is DX. But Australia (Perth in particular) is a long way away from anywhere else. All a question of perspective, history and where you live I guess. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD/VY2LF Sent from Mail for Windows 10 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
I get what you're saying Steve . . . But to me, anything over 2,000 miles I consider DX on 160m . . . considering most stations on Top Band struggle to work stations 1,000 miles away. So I still consider it an achievement to work 'Across the Pond' on Top Band, which is why it still gives me a buzz! But I get what you're saying . . . where you are in Australia, a similar distance is still in the same country . . . as it is for most Americans. Whereas working across to a different continent seems more of an achievement, psychologically at least. What I HAVE noticed over the many decades I've been DX-ing on 160m, is that if you can work Across the Pond from England well on Top Band, you can pretty much guarantee to work anywhere in the world. (that's pretty much been my experience, anyway) And as you know - in my case, that has always been with a Dipole antenna! When would be a good time to work you Steve? Roger G3YRO _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m: EU-NA
From the viewpoint of old Europe it´s probably "just" the atlantic ocean, what has to be passed. Thinking, that there is basically nothing in between the two continents than waves, storms and a view ships and the signal will be then received at another part of the world, which we only knew for some hundred years (and since then with a cultural conection). I like working UA9 or UA0, JA from DL as well, but the skip over the atlantic ocean "feels" somehow different. Sounds kind of psychologically. 73, Harry DH1NBE _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Working 'long' distances on 160m
G’day all Some food for thought. Like Roger G3YRO and others who were teenage UK radio amateurs in the 1960s/1970s I grew up radio-wise on 160m. In those days, the holy grail was to work across the Atlantic from UK/Europe. Nowadays, living in Western Australia, it seems quite funny to think that working from Europe to into the east coast of North America is something that is still considered as real DX working on topband, as the distance is not relatively long and there is no shortage of stations (in theory!) at either end. Back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, UK stations (and others in Europe) could only legally use 10W DC input, so working this distance was really difficult and thus ‘serious DX’. However, as the 1970s progressed, there were TL-922 linear amplifiers in use at various G-DXers (but of course, ahem, never on 160m). Some years after this, 400W output became both legal and commonplace below 1832KHz in the UK. Anyhow, my point is that the distance from Europe/the UK to east coast USA is relatively short – from the UK’s Newcastle Upon Tyne (where Roger lives) to New York is about 3,330 miles (about 5,360 km) as the crow flies. This is a very similar distance from Perth, Western Australia to Auckland, New Zealand – but no serious Southern Hemisphere topband DXer would consider a contact between VK6 and ZL1 as a DX contact. On the other hand, Perth to Newcastle Upon Tyne is 9,056 miles (14,574 km) while New York to Perth is 11,613 miles (18,690km). That to me is DX. But Australia (Perth in particular) is a long way away from anywhere else. All a question of perspective, history and where you live I guess. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD/VY2LF Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
