Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Mike Waters]

It would be a simple matter to use my old Tektronix 465B scope as a TDR.

But I'd love to have a good dual-port VNA. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

> There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does it
> -- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep.
>
> http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html
>
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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,11/24/2015 1:30 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

But I'd love to have a good dual-port VNA.:-)


See the price - about $700 with cal kit and shipping.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,11/23/2015 2:06 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

Maybe things have improved lately, but AIM would not be my first choice.


There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does it 
-- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep.


http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html

To expose small perturbations in the feedline or system, make the sweep 
at VHF/UHF. To see only the more gross defects, sweep from about 50-150 
MHz. To understand this, remember that a linear frequency sweep will 
spend more time in the high octaves than the low ones, so the greatest 
contribution to the display will be that higher octave, whatever you 
have chosen.


In the example posed by the question about varmint damage, I'd set it 
for 200 - 1,000 MHz to see small nicks in the braid, 50 - 150 MHz to see 
the connectors and splices.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Tom W8JI]

I've been doing FFT-based measurements since 1982.  I suggest that you try 
a technique before you criticize it. Your analysis is badly mistaken.


Jim,

Factually, the little bumps or even big bumps on VHF are meaningless for 
active problems on lower frequencies.   They might predict a future issue, 
but on 160 meters even crushing a cable flat for five feet would be 
meaningless for receive loss unless the center actually contacted the 
shield.


This is just the way things work, and it is important we get our heads 
around the way things work.


If I wanted to find the reason for high signal loss on 160, the last thing I 
would ever do is look at the system on 150 MHz or even 30 MHz.   I would 
first look at the system down around where the problem is, or as close as I 
could to that frequency.


I can go out and slice half of the shield off for 10 feet and not tell a 
difference in receive 160 signal, but it would be terrible on VHF. VHF 
certainly tells us a future problem or a defect nicely, but it will not 
directly point reliably to the LF issue unless by chance there is only one 
bad spot.


I use a TDR when applicable, and that is about once every three or four 
years. I can find and fix any cable system for HF with a cheap common SWR 
analyzer, and so can anyone else. I can sit in my house and find a bad 
connection 1000 feet away by sweeping the SWR between 1.8 and 5 MHz, and get 
within a foot, and not spend $500 on equipment.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,11/24/2015 3:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
Actually, to see the more gross defects, we would look at a lower 
frequency. I don't want to imagine what my 160 stuff would look like 
at VHF.


Tom,

I've been doing FFT-based measurements since 1982.  I suggest that you 
try a technique before you criticize it. Your analysis is badly mistaken.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,11/24/2015 5:56 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
Factually, the little bumps or even big bumps on VHF are meaningless 
for active problems on lower frequencies.   They might predict a 
future issue, but on 160 meters even crushing a cable flat for five 
feet would be meaningless for receive loss unless the center actually 
contacted the shield.


Factually, that is not good analysis. One can use any measurement tool 
in multiple ways. If, for example, one is searching for tiny holes the 
outer diectric that are letting in water, we must look at the higher 
frequencies to see that level of detail. We're not looking for SWR or 
loss, we're looking for some sort of mechanical defect that degrades the 
cable.


On Tue,11/24/2015 5:56 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
If I wanted to find the reason for high signal loss on 160, the last 
thing I would ever do is look at the system on 150 MHz or even 30 
MHz.   I would first look at the system down around where the problem 
is, or as close as I could to that frequency. 


That's because you don't understand FFT analysis. I'm not looking for 
the loss, I'm looking for the CAUSE of the loss, and I want to get 
within a few inches of it. You CANNOT do that with a low frequency test 
signal -- the system does not have sufficient resolution.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Tom W8JI]

There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does 
it -- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep.


http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html

To expose small perturbations in the feedline or system, make the sweep at 
VHF/UHF. To see only the more gross defects, sweep from about 50-150 MHz. 
To understand this, remember that a linear frequency sweep will spend more 
time in the high octaves than the low ones, so the greatest contribution 
to the display will be that higher octave, whatever you have chosen.


Actually, to see the more gross defects, we would look at a lower frequency. 
I don't want to imagine what my 160 stuff would look like at VHF.   :)


A system can have a  500 ohm transmission impedance bump 1 foot long on 160 
meters and it just doesn't matter. The general rule is if a reasonable 
impedance discontinuity is less than one degree long, it will not upset the 
system. SO 239's, for example, are about 35 ohms in the female's joining 
spring part (the males are nearly perfect). The effect of that bump is 
nearly immeasurable below 100 MHz.


We all know a one foot long chunk of wire that might be 400-800 ohms surge 
impedance barely changes SWR and adds immeasureable loss between the coax 
and a vertical base on 160. Same reason. Although the wire is a "major" 
impedance bump, it is electrically not too long.


What we cannot tolerate on 160 are resistive series connections and low 
resistance shorts shunting the system, or cross coupling from sharing common 
currents.


On 160 meters, if we simply measure RF voltage across the input of a line 
while sweeping low frequency, recording the repeating frequency of voltage 
minimums, we can find the distance to any cable or connection problem 
affecting the system by more than a few dB. Little lumps and bumps at VHF 
might locate a future issue like a chewed shield, but for an existing signal 
loss they are just a distraction.


If a shield develops high resistance 800 feet from my house, the high series 
resistance will cause a repeating voltage null 800/492 = 1.626 MHz apart.


If I swept the line and saw repeating nulls spaced 3 MHz apart, I would know 
an issue existed 492 / 3=164 electrical feet away.  If the cable was .85 vf 
, the issue would be 164*.85 = 139.4 feet away physically. This would be 
true for an open or a short.


All the software and refinement does for locating major existing issues 
affecting level is eliminate the use of a calculator. Any SWR measuring 
device, or even a simple voltage indicator, could do the job.   I can find a 
bump affecting receive levels with a Heathkit VF1 VFO and a 1N34 diode and 
meter about as well as I can with a TDR on 160.:) 


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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Jorge Diez CX6VM]

Thanks all for the help, will upgrade software and try to use it as TDR

73,
Jorge


Enviado desde mi iPhone

> El 23 nov. 2015, a las 23:00, Bill Hider <n...@erols.com> escribió:
> 
> Jorge,
> 
> I have used my AIM4170 many times as a TDR.  Your 3 year old AIM_853.exe 
> should work, but it is free & easy go upgrade to the latest (October 26, 
> 2015) software revision, AIM_910B.
> 
> Download AIM_910B here:
> 
> WWW.w5big.com/prog_update.htm
> 
> Bill N3RR
> 
>> On Nov 23, 2015 8:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Jorge, 
>> 
>> The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but 
>> surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it 
>> as a TDR. 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Frank 
>> W3LPL
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> 
>> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
>> To: donov...@starpower.net 
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM 
>> Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage
>> 
>> Hi Frank
>> 
>> I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es
>> 
>> In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very 
>> very expensive toy for my use :-)
>> 
>> I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need 
>> another software or this is OK?
>> 
>> Thanks, 
>> Jorge 
>> 
>> -Mensaje original- 
>> De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de 
>> donov...@starpower.net 
>> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. 
>> Para: topband@contesting.com 
>> CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
>> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
>> 
>> Hi Frank, 
>> 
>> My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. 
>> 
>> Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform 
>> very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web 
>> site: 
>> 
>> https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png 
>> 
>> The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component 
>> from the shack to the termination resistor. 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Frank 
>> W3LPL 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> 
>> From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
>> To: donov...@starpower.net 
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM 
>> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
>> 
>> where can i get such toy? 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- 
>> Von: donovanf <donov...@starpower.net> 
>> An: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com> 
>> Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
>> Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm 
>> Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify 
>> the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many 
>> other types of antennas. 
>> 
>> In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every 
>> component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way 
>> to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost 
>> always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and 
>> tools in hand. 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Frank 
>> W3LPL
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> 
>> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > 
>> To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > 
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM 
>> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
>> 
>> Thanks all you guys for the help
>> 
>> Will do this tests and see what is wrong
>> 
>> 73, 
>> Jorge 
>> CX6VM/CW5W
>> 
>> -Mensaje original- 
>> De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] 
>> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. 
>> Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' 
>> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
>> 
>>> 
>>> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago.
>> 
>> 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter.
>> 
>> That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and 
>> the 
>> Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination 
>> end. 
>> 
>>> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
>>> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf,
>

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Tom Homewood]

I agree with Mike, check the ground connection at the Beverage feed point.

73 Tom W1TO

On 11/23/2015 10:26 AM, Mike Waters wrote:

Not necessarily.

I've seen a poor ground cause low signal levels.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
wrote:


... I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in
the coax, will be completely deaf, right?


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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Thanks all you guys for the help

Will do this tests and see what is wrong

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-Mensaje original-
De: Tom W8JI [mailto:w...@w8ji.com] 
Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m.
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List'
Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage

>
> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago.
>

5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter.

That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the 
Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end.


> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, 
> right?

No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors.

>
> So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in 
> the transformer?  I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes
>

It can not be at the end resistor termination.

The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need 
to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is 
corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken 
wire, or a bad part from lightning or water.

The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the 
house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency 
of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate 
exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, 
even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault.

73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[donovanf]

A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify 
the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many 
other types of antennas. 


In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every 
component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way 
to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost 
always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and 
tools in hand. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
To: "TopBand List" <topband@contesting.com> 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

Thanks all you guys for the help 

Will do this tests and see what is wrong 

73, 
Jorge 
CX6VM/CW5W 

-Mensaje original- 
De: Tom W8JI [mailto:w...@w8ji.com] 
Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. 
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' 
Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

> 
> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. 
> 

5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. 

That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the 
Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. 


> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, 
> right? 

No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. 

> 
> So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in 
> the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes 
> 

It can not be at the end resistor termination. 

The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need 
to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is 
corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken 
wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. 

The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the 
house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency 
of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate 
exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, 
even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 

73 Tom 


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Topband: fixing beverage

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello

 

I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago.

 

At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem,
because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right?

 

So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the
transformer?  I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes 

 

What do you I need to test first?

 

Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Jorge,

1. Measure the wire resistance in respect to ground and it should show
   a resistance a little bit higher than your termination value. This
   will check for breaks in the wire,
2. Put a temporary termination on the end of the coax (any convenient
   value) and measure it at the shack end.
3. Check both sides of the beverage box with an ohm meter and you
   should see only a few ohms on both sides.
4. Put a 450 ohm resistor across the Beverage side of the transformer
   and check from the shack with a  MFJ-259 for SWR.
5. If you don't have a MFJ 259 or equivalent try running 1 watt RF out
   the cable and check the VSWR at the shack. (Most boxes with take a
   couple of watts for a few seonds assuming you have a 2 watt resistor
   across the Beverage side terminals.
6. Pull the wire out of the weeds.☺


Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

On 11/23/2015 10:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

Hello

  


I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago.

  


At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem,
because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right?

  


So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the
transformer?  I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes

  


What do you I need to test first?

  


Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Mike Waters]

I noticed that's an AIM.

Owen Duffy has written numerous articles about their software and/or
hardware, and they are not very flattering.
http://owenduffy.net/blog/?s=aim
Maybe things have improved lately, but AIM would not be my first choice.

His test equipment category is at http://owenduffy.net/blog/?cat=2 and AIM
is just one of them.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM,  wrote:

> Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform
> very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web
> site:
> https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png
>
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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[donovanf]

Hi Jorge, 


The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but 
surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it 
as a TDR. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
To: donov...@starpower.net 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM 
Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage 

Hi Frank 

I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es 

In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very very 
expensive toy for my use :-) 

I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need 
another software or this is OK? 

Thanks, 
Jorge 


-Mensaje original- 
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de 
donov...@starpower.net 
Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. 
Para: topband@contesting.com 
CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 


Hi Frank, 


My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. 


Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform very 
well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: 


https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png 


The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component from 
the shack to the termination resistor. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 


- Original Message - 

From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
To: donov...@starpower.net 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

where can i get such toy? 






-Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- 
Von: donovanf <donov...@starpower.net> 
An: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com> 
Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm 
Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 





A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify 
the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many 
other types of antennas. 


In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every 
component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way 
to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost 
always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and 
tools in hand. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message - 

From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > 
To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

Thanks all you guys for the help 

Will do this tests and see what is wrong 

73, 
Jorge 
CX6VM/CW5W 

-Mensaje original- 
De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] 
Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. 
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' 
Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

> 
> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. 
> 

5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. 

That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the 
Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. 


> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, 
right? 

No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. 

> 
> So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in 
> the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes 
> 

It can not be at the end resistor termination. 

The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need 
to 
carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is 
corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken 
wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. 

The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the 
house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency 
of 
either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate 
exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, 
even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 

73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[James Bennett]

Jorge,

I also have a 4170 and it does do TDR without any additional software or 
hardware. The user manual has several pages on how to use the 4170 as a TDR.

Jim Bennett / W6JHB
Folsom, CA

> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Hi Jorge, 
> 
> 
> The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but 
> surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it 
> as a TDR. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
> To: donov...@starpower.net 
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM 
> Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage 
> 
> Hi Frank 
> 
> I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es 
> 
> In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very very 
> expensive toy for my use :-) 
> 
> I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need 
> another software or this is OK? 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Jorge 
> 
> 
> -Mensaje original- 
> De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de 
> donov...@starpower.net 
> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. 
> Para: topband@contesting.com 
> CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
> 
> 
> Hi Frank, 
> 
> 
> My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. 
> 
> 
> Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform 
> very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: 
> 
> 
> https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png 
> 
> 
> The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component 
> from the shack to the termination resistor. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
> To: donov...@starpower.net 
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM 
> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
> 
> where can i get such toy? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- 
> Von: donovanf <donov...@starpower.net> 
> An: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com> 
> Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
> Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm 
> Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify 
> the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many 
> other types of antennas. 
> 
> 
> In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every 
> component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way 
> to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost 
> always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and 
> tools in hand. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > 
> To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > 
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM 
> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
> 
> Thanks all you guys for the help 
> 
> Will do this tests and see what is wrong 
> 
> 73, 
> Jorge 
> CX6VM/CW5W 
> 
> -Mensaje original- 
> De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] 
> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. 
> Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' 
> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
> 
>> 
>> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago.
> 
> 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. 
> 
> That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the 
> Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination 
> end. 
> 
> 
>> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
>> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf,
> right? 
> 
> No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. 
> 
>> 
>> So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in 
>> the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes
> 
> It can not be at the end resistor termination. 
> 
> The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need 
> to 
> carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is 
> corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken 
> wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. 
> 
> The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep 

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Art Snapper]

When you get the problem solved, save the TDR trace for future reference.
You can even take a picture of it with a camera.

Art NK8X

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:11 PM, James Bennett <w6...@me.com> wrote:

> Jorge,
>
> I also have a 4170 and it does do TDR without any additional software or
> hardware. The user manual has several pages on how to use the 4170 as a TDR.
>
> Jim Bennett / W6JHB
> Folsom, CA
>
> > On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jorge,
> >
> >
> > The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but
> > surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it
> > as a TDR.
> >
> >
> > 73
> > Frank
> > W3LPL
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com>
> > To: donov...@starpower.net
> > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM
> > Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage
> >
> > Hi Frank
> >
> > I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es
> >
> > In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very
> very expensive toy for my use :-)
> >
> > I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I
> need another software or this is OK?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jorge
> >
> >
> > -Mensaje original-----
> > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de
> donov...@starpower.net
> > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m.
> > Para: topband@contesting.com
> > CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com
> > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
> >
> >
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> >
> > My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great.
> >
> >
> > Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are
> perform very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions'
> web site:
> >
> >
> > https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png
> >
> >
> > The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every
> component from the shack to the termination resistor.
> >
> >
> > 73
> > Frank
> > W3LPL
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com
> > To: donov...@starpower.net
> > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
> >
> > where can i get such toy?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung-
> > Von: donovanf <donov...@starpower.net>
> > An: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
> > Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com>
> > Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm
> > Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify
> > the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many
> > other types of antennas.
> >
> >
> > In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every
> > component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way
> > to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost
> > always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and
> > tools in hand.
> >
> >
> > 73
> > Frank
> > W3LPL
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com >
> > To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com >
> > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
> >
> > Thanks all you guys for the help
> >
> > Will do this tests and see what is wrong
> >
> > 73,
> > Jorge
> > CX6VM/CW5W
> >
> > -Mensaje original-
> > De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ]
> > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m.
> > Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List'
> > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
> >
> >>
> >> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks
> ago.
> >
> > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter.
> >
> > That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver
> and the
> > Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the
> termination end.
> >
> >
> >> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the
> >&g

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Bill Hider]

Jorge,

I have used my AIM4170 many times as a TDR.  Your 3 year old AIM_853.exe should 
work, but it is free & easy go upgrade to the latest (October 26, 2015) 
software revision, AIM_910B.

Download AIM_910B here:

WWW.w5big.com/prog_update.htm

Bill N3RR

On Nov 23, 2015 8:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge, 
>
> The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but 
> surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it 
> as a TDR. 
>
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
> To: donov...@starpower.net 
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM 
> Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage
>
> Hi Frank
>
> I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es
>
> In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very very 
> expensive toy for my use :-)
>
> I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need 
> another software or this is OK?
>
> Thanks, 
> Jorge 
>
> -Mensaje original- 
> De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de 
> donov...@starpower.net 
> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. 
> Para: topband@contesting.com 
> CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
>
> Hi Frank, 
>
> My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. 
>
> Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform 
> very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: 
>
> https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png 
>
> The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component 
> from the shack to the termination resistor. 
>
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
> To: donov...@starpower.net 
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM 
> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
>
> where can i get such toy? 
>
>
>
>
> -----Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- 
> Von: donovanf <donov...@starpower.net> 
> An: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com> 
> Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
> Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm 
> Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 
>
>
>
> A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify 
> the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many 
> other types of antennas. 
>
> In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every 
> component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way 
> to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost 
> always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and 
> tools in hand. 
>
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > 
> To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > 
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM 
> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
>
> Thanks all you guys for the help
>
> Will do this tests and see what is wrong
>
> 73, 
> Jorge 
> CX6VM/CW5W
>
> -Mensaje original- 
> De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] 
> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. 
> Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' 
> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage
>
> > 
> > I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. 
> >
>
> 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter.
>
> That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the 
> Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination 
> end. 
>
> > At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
> > problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, 
> right?
>
> No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors.
>
> > 
> > So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in 
> > the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes 
> >
>
> It can not be at the end resistor termination.
>
> The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need 
> to 
> carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is 
> corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken 
> wire, or a bad part from lightning or water.
>
> The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from 
> the 
> house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connectio

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Tom W8JI]

Any antenna analyzer with variable frequency can be used as a TDR of sorts. 
Anything will work.


The method is very simple. You simply observe how far apart in frequency the 
repeating gyrations in impedance are, and use standard 1/2 wave formulas to 
convert the difference frequency to distance.


I can do this with a low power VFO and a diode detector or scope.  It does 
not even have to be a bridge.  :)


73 Tom 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Mike Waters]

Not necessarily.

I've seen a poor ground cause low signal levels.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
wrote:

> ... I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in
> the coax, will be completely deaf, right?
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Good information from Herb..  Water in the coax can cause attenuation. 
 

73
Bruce-k1fz
www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:49:18 -0400, Herbert Schoenbohm  wrote:

  Jorge,

1. Measure the wire resistance in respect to ground and it should show
a resistance a little bit higher than your termination value. This
will check for breaks in the wire,
2. Put a temporary termination on the end of the coax (any convenient
value) and measure it at the shack end. 
3. Check both sides of the beverage box with an ohm meter and you
should see only a few ohms on both sides. 
4. Put a 450 ohm resistor across the Beverage side of the transformer
and check from the shack with a MFJ-259 for SWR. 
5. If you don't have a MFJ 259 or equivalent try running 1 watt RF out

the cable and check the VSWR at the shack. (Most boxes with take a
couple of watts for a few seonds assuming you have a 2 watt resistor
across the Beverage side terminals. 
6. Pull the wire out of the weeds.☺


Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

On 11/23/2015 10:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

Hello



I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. 




At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem,
because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right?



So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the
transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes



What do you I need to test first?



Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W



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Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[Tom W8JI]

I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago.



5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter.

That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and 
the Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the 
termination end.




At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem,
because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right?


No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors.



So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the
transformer?  I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes



It can not be at the end resistor termination.

The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You 
need to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, 
this is corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is 
a broken wire, or a bad part from lightning or water.


The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from 
the house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The 
frequency of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you 
to calculate exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this 
within a few feet, even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault.


73 Tom 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: fixing beverage

[donovanf]

Hi Frank, 


My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. 


Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices 
that are perform very well as a TDR. Here's an example display 
from Array Solutions' web site: 


https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png 


The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every 
component from the shack to the termination resistor. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com 
To: donov...@starpower.net 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

where can i get such toy? 






-Ursprüngliche Mitteilung- 
Von: donovanf <donov...@starpower.net> 
An: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com> 
Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM <cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> 
Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm 
Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 





A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify 
the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many 
other types of antennas. 


In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every 
component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way 
to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost 
always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and 
tools in hand. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message - 

From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > 
To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

Thanks all you guys for the help 

Will do this tests and see what is wrong 

73, 
Jorge 
CX6VM/CW5W 

-Mensaje original- 
De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] 
Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. 
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' 
Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage 

> 
> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. 
> 

5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. 

That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the 
Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. 


> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the 
> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, 
right? 

No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. 

> 
> So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in 
> the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes 
> 

It can not be at the end resistor termination. 

The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need 
to 
carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is 
corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken 
wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. 

The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the 
house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency 
of 
either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate 
exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, 
even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 

73 Tom 


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