Re: Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband]

Steve, yes, you're the second person to mention that characteristic.  
Although it makes sense now that you mention it, I really didn't 
appreciate that difference.  I suspect that the detuning step would be 
worthwhile anyway, and several other respondents have offered some good 
advice on accomplishing that..


Thanks and 73,

Joe
K2XX


Steve Maki 
Monday, July 30, 2018 9:23 PM
I've just recently been reading up on Waller Flags, and am certainly 
no expert, but my impression so far is that an HWF (horizontally 
polarized flag), mounted up in the air on a tower, should be less 
affected by tall vertical thingies in the area; and less prone to 
local noise in the area which is normally vertically polarized, all of 
which is a major attraction of the antenna. So if your nearby 
horizontal items are not long ones in terms of wavelength on the 
frequencies of interest using the flag, I wouldn't expect a problem.


If your plan is a vertically polarized flag, than ignore the previous 
comments.


-Steve K8LX

On 7/29/2018 6:58 PM, Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband wrote:


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Joe Giacobello, K2XX 
Sunday, July 29, 2018 6:58 PM
I am hoping to construct a Waller Flag RX antenna on a 56' Heights 
aluminum tower for 80 and 160M RX.  The ideal location from aesthetic, 
RF and maintenance-of-a-civil -family-climate standpoints is midway 
(150' separation) between two existing LM-470 towers now separated by 
about 300'.  One has a 4-element Steppir and a 13-element 2M yagi on 
it and the other a 2 element 30/40M quad.  Obviously, the WF would not 
be used simultaneously as the two existing antennas, and the Heights 
tower would be well grounded..  Am I asking for a round of battles of 
trying to mitigate interaction problems on either TX or RX on any of 
the bands involved?  Would an easy answer to my question be obtained 
from an EZNEC simulation, especially since I already have models of 
the two current antennas?


I suspect other people on this reflector have been here before.  I'd 
appreciate any practical advice.



Many thanks and 73,

Joe
K2XX


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[Kees Nijdam]

It depends not only on distance. Also the gain of both (TX- and RX) antennas 
matters.
The lower the gain of the RX antenna, the more the re-radiating TX antenna (or 
other nearby wires/towers) will modify its pattern. Low gain loops, such as the 
Waller flag, are more critical compared to beverages.
One of my beverages runs 5 meters from my TX antenna, and is useless without 
detuning the TX antenna. The other beverage has its feedpoint at 40 meter 
distance and runs away from the TX antenna and the influence is minimal.
My advice: allways check the interaction by detuning the TX antenna(s). Use an 
AM broadcasting station as reference. 

Kees, PE5T 


Verzonden vanuit Mail voor Windows 10

Van: W0MU Mike Fatchett
Verzonden: dinsdag 31 juli 2018 00:29
Aan: topband@contesting.com
Onderwerp: Re: Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

Interesting.  My rcv array is probably 500 ft from the Xmit antenna or 
any antenna so I am probably ok?  My 70ft tower is 70ish feet from the 
160 inverted l.  I wonder if there is much to be gained by attempting to 
detune the tower.

W0MU


On 7/30/2018 10:44 AM, Pete Rimmel N8PR wrote:
> Joe,
>
> You might consider that there is interaction of the Waller Flag and 
> the other two towers as well as your transmit antenna while on receive.
>
> I suggest that you detune both of the other towers, as well as the 
> transmit antenna while using the WF on receive to eliminate them 
> re-radiating noise to the WF.
>
> Take a look at my YouTube video entitled:  "N8PR TX Antenna 
> Construction and Detuning effects on receive Noise"
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk6PVl7uaBM=257s
>
> I think that you will see that the detuning is worthwhile.
>
> 73,  PeteR  N8PR
> --
>
> 1. Location of WF RX Antenna.  Need Expert Advice
>
> {{I am hoping to construct a Waller Flag RX antenna on a 56' Heights
> aluminum tower for 80 and 160M RX.  The ideal location from aesthetic,
> RF and maintenance-of-a-civil -family-climate standpoints is midway
> (150' separation) between two existing LM-470 towers now separated by
> about 300'.  One has a 4-element Steppir and a 13-element 2M yagi on it
> and the other a 2 element 30/40M quad.  Obviously, the WF would not be
> used simultaneously as the two existing antennas, and the Heights tower
> would be well grounded..  Am I asking for a round of battles of trying
> to mitigate interaction problems on either TX or RX on any of the bands
> involved?  Would an easy answer to my question be obtained from an EZNEC
> simulation, especially since I already have models of the two current
> antennas?
>
> I suspect other people on this reflector have been here before. I'd
> appreciate any practical advice.
>
>
> Many thanks and 73,
>
> Joe
> K2XX}}
>
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[Steve Maki]

I've just recently been reading up on Waller Flags, and am certainly no 
expert, but my impression so far is that an HWF (horizontally polarized 
flag), mounted up in the air on a tower, should be less affected by tall 
vertical thingies in the area; and less prone to local noise in the area 
which is normally vertically polarized, all of which is a major 
attraction of the antenna. So if your nearby horizontal items are not 
long ones in terms of wavelength on the frequencies of interest using 
the flag, I wouldn't expect a problem.


If your plan is a vertically polarized flag, than ignore the previous 
comments.


-Steve K8LX

On 7/29/2018 6:58 PM, Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband wrote:

I am hoping to construct a Waller Flag RX antenna on a 56' Heights 
aluminum tower for 80 and 160M RX.  The ideal location from aesthetic, 
RF and maintenance-of-a-civil -family-climate standpoints is midway 
(150' separation) between two existing LM-470 towers now separated by 
about 300'.  One has a 4-element Steppir and a 13-element 2M yagi on it 
and the other a 2 element 30/40M quad.  Obviously, the WF would not be 
used simultaneously as the two existing antennas, and the Heights tower 
would be well grounded..  Am I asking for a round of battles of trying 
to mitigate interaction problems on either TX or RX on any of the bands 
involved?  Would an easy answer to my question be obtained from an EZNEC 
simulation, especially since I already have models of the two current 
antennas?


I suspect other people on this reflector have been here before.  I'd 
appreciate any practical advice.



Many thanks and 73,


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 7/30/2018 3:29 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
Interesting.  My rcv array is probably 500 ft from the Xmit antenna or 
any antenna so I am probably ok?  My 70ft tower is 70ish feet from the 
160 inverted l.  I wonder if there is much to be gained by attempting to 
detune the tower.


W0MU



500 feet is only 1 wavelength on top band.
Interaction is entirely possible at that distance.
Two verticals spaced 1/2 wavelength is a commonly
used directional array design.

Rick N6RK

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

Interesting.  My rcv array is probably 500 ft from the Xmit antenna or 
any antenna so I am probably ok?  My 70ft tower is 70ish feet from the 
160 inverted l.  I wonder if there is much to be gained by attempting to 
detune the tower.


W0MU


On 7/30/2018 10:44 AM, Pete Rimmel N8PR wrote:

Joe,

You might consider that there is interaction of the Waller Flag and 
the other two towers as well as your transmit antenna while on receive.


I suggest that you detune both of the other towers, as well as the 
transmit antenna while using the WF on receive to eliminate them 
re-radiating noise to the WF.


Take a look at my YouTube video entitled:  "N8PR TX Antenna 
Construction and Detuning effects on receive Noise"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk6PVl7uaBM=257s

I think that you will see that the detuning is worthwhile.

73,  PeteR  N8PR
--

1. Location of WF RX Antenna.  Need Expert Advice

{{I am hoping to construct a Waller Flag RX antenna on a 56' Heights
aluminum tower for 80 and 160M RX.  The ideal location from aesthetic,
RF and maintenance-of-a-civil -family-climate standpoints is midway
(150' separation) between two existing LM-470 towers now separated by
about 300'.  One has a 4-element Steppir and a 13-element 2M yagi on it
and the other a 2 element 30/40M quad.  Obviously, the WF would not be
used simultaneously as the two existing antennas, and the Heights tower
would be well grounded..  Am I asking for a round of battles of trying
to mitigate interaction problems on either TX or RX on any of the bands
involved?  Would an easy answer to my question be obtained from an EZNEC
simulation, especially since I already have models of the two current
antennas?

I suspect other people on this reflector have been here before. I'd
appreciate any practical advice.


Many thanks and 73,

Joe
K2XX}}



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[Pete Rimmel N8PR]

Joe,

You might consider that there is interaction of the Waller Flag and the 
other two towers as well as your transmit antenna while on receive.


I suggest that you detune both of the other towers, as well as the transmit 
antenna while using the WF on receive to eliminate them re-radiating noise 
to the WF.


Take a look at my YouTube video entitled:  "N8PR TX Antenna Construction and 
Detuning effects on receive Noise"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk6PVl7uaBM=257s

I think that you will see that the detuning is worthwhile.

73,  PeteR  N8PR
--

1. Location of WF RX Antenna.  Need Expert Advice

{{I am hoping to construct a Waller Flag RX antenna on a 56' Heights
aluminum tower for 80 and 160M RX.  The ideal location from aesthetic,
RF and maintenance-of-a-civil -family-climate standpoints is midway
(150' separation) between two existing LM-470 towers now separated by
about 300'.  One has a 4-element Steppir and a 13-element 2M yagi on it
and the other a 2 element 30/40M quad.  Obviously, the WF would not be
used simultaneously as the two existing antennas, and the Heights tower
would be well grounded..  Am I asking for a round of battles of trying
to mitigate interaction problems on either TX or RX on any of the bands
involved?  Would an easy answer to my question be obtained from an EZNEC
simulation, especially since I already have models of the two current
antennas?

I suspect other people on this reflector have been here before.  I'd
appreciate any practical advice.


Many thanks and 73,

Joe
K2XX}}



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Location of WF RX Antenna. Need Expert Advice

[Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband]

I am hoping to construct a Waller Flag RX antenna on a 56' Heights 
aluminum tower for 80 and 160M RX.  The ideal location from aesthetic, 
RF and maintenance-of-a-civil -family-climate standpoints is midway 
(150' separation) between two existing LM-470 towers now separated by 
about 300'.  One has a 4-element Steppir and a 13-element 2M yagi on it 
and the other a 2 element 30/40M quad.  Obviously, the WF would not be 
used simultaneously as the two existing antennas, and the Heights tower 
would be well grounded..  Am I asking for a round of battles of trying 
to mitigate interaction problems on either TX or RX on any of the bands 
involved?  Would an easy answer to my question be obtained from an EZNEC 
simulation, especially since I already have models of the two current 
antennas?


I suspect other people on this reflector have been here before.  I'd 
appreciate any practical advice.



Many thanks and 73,

Joe
K2XX
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: location

[DALE LONG]

Bill:

Expect the unexpected.  If you are using insulated wire, it can be broken 
inside the insulation...Easy to check the wire for continuity.. Be absolutely 
sure all connections are really clean.. 

If you have a 1/4 vertical that is not touching another metal object, it should 
tune up.

Try bypassing the tuner completely (not just putting the tuner in bypass mode) 
and check with antenna analyzer where it is resonant.  That should give you 
some ideas.  Perhaps your antenna is too short or too long.  If you have a 1/4 
vertical, you should not need a tuner unless you want to ragchew above 1900 
KHz...You really need to find the resonant frequency of what you have.

An ineffective antenna is one thing, but sounds like your antenna is not even 
resonant on 160m.  (from your description of not loading on 160). Antenna 
analyzers are a wonderful tool.  

Best 73

Dale - N3BNA



 From: Bill Cromwell wrcromw...@gmail.com
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: location
 

Hi,

I'm dealing with life on a small lot, too. I have a wire up (quarter wave on 
160) that somewhat wants to work. I can load it through a matching network (aka 
tuner) on 80, 40, etc but it does NOT want to load on 160 meters. I can hear 
quite a bit but TX is woefully inadequate. I plan to raise it higher off the 
ground AND redo the counterpoise. I expect I'll have to make some sort of 
transformer to get it to load well, too. There are enough pieces that I am not 
planning to do anything until after I build the impedance measurement bridge 
and get some idea of just where to go. Meanwhile I might whiz up some 
transformers and take a shot in the dark but without knowing where I am I can't 
really know how to get somewhere else. Maybe I'll get lucky. Those counterpoise 
wires - like the antenna wire - cannot run in straight lines because there is 
not enough room (maybe one or two can).

That same antenna used down below 500 kc has pulled in NDB stations from as far 
away as 1225 miles! When I try to pump about 35 watts into it I'm lucky if even 
ONE RBN receiver hears it and the signal is dismal. I only get that much when I 
remove the 'tuner' and feed the antenna direct from the Ranger's Pi network. 80 
and 40 are good to go with that wire at less than 5 watts.

If I get it to work I'll be back with more info. I am getting my own ideas of 
what to try from some of the same articles online that you guys have 
referenced. Trying to adapt to what I have here.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On 09/21/2013 09:31 AM, James Rodenkirch wrote:
  
 
 During the summer of 2011 I came across a website hosted by
 Simone Mannini, IW5EDI, of Firenze, Italy, that featured a “160 meter antenna
 for a small lot.”  The information and
 picture, supplied by Troy Martin, K5CBL, of Madill, Oklahoma, intrigued me. 
 For details on the IW5EDI antenna,
 visit his website at http://bit.ly/1890Ay0.
   Thinking,
 “Why not?,” I assembled the “small lot” antenna, found five 75’ foot wires to
 use as counterpoises/radials, erected the antenna temporarily outside my shack
 and ran the five counterpoise wires along the back patio deck and out on the
 front yard.
 
 
 I connected
 the antenna to my venerable ICOM 735, keyed it up and found the SWR, without a
 tuner, was 1.3:1! It was Miller Time! Cranking
 the power down as low as it could go – and inserting a quickly-assembled 2db
 in-line attenuator – I entered the 2010 CQ WW 160 Meter Contest in the QRP
 category. At the end of the contest, I had garnered 182 QSOs, 37 multipliers
 and 3 (count ’em, THREE) DXCC multipliers.
 There ya go - quick, easy way top get on 160 and have some fun!
   72, Jim Rodenkirch, K9JWV
 

_
Topband Reflector
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[Bill Cromwell]

On 09/21/2013 04:11 PM, DALE LONG wrote:

Bill:

Expect the unexpected.  If you are using insulated wire, it can be broken 
inside the insulation...Easy to check the wire for continuity.. Be absolutely 
sure all connections are really clean..

If you have a 1/4 vertical that is not touching another metal object, it should 
tune up.

Try bypassing the tuner completely (not just putting the tuner in bypass mode) 
and check with antenna analyzer where it is resonant.  That should give you 
some ideas.  Perhaps your antenna is too short or too long.  If you have a 1/4 
vertical, you should not need a tuner unless you want to ragchew above 1900 
KHz...You really need to find the resonant frequency of what you have.

An ineffective antenna is one thing, but sounds like your antenna is not even resonant on 
160m.  (from your description of not loading on 160). Antenna analyzers are a 
wonderful tool.

Best 73

Dale - N3BNA



Hi Dale,

Thanks for your comments. I do have a couple of Grid dip 
oscillators...one grid dip and one gate dip. I need to figure out where 
the dial calibration on both them actually is and get the resonance 
info. That will still not tell me what impedance I'm looking at.


After I posted I dug an old power supply board out and found a two and 
half inch ferrite donut with heavy wire windings on it (two of them 
actually). I fooled around and ended up with the rig and 'tuner' getting 
happy on 160. I have 18 turns on the antenna side and 5 turns on the 
radio side. I'll give it a try tonight when there are some people on and 
the RBN skimmers are back on the band. Obviously that changed the 
settings for 80 and 40 but 80 and 40 still load up okay. The real test 
is successful QSOs! I have to wait for dark when those other people come 
out to play.


73,

Bill  KU8H

_
Topband Reflector

Topband: location

[Greg Hill]

look me up on qrz I need help trying to get on 160 meters. 

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[Mike Waters]

Hello Greg,

We see the photo there. How big is your lot?

If there's any way to get coax from your house into those big woods to the
east or west, you might have it made. You could use the trees as antenna
supports for an inverted-L and Beverages.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Greg Hill kd8...@suddenlink.net wrote:

 look me up on qrz I need help trying to get on 160 meters.

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[Charlie Young]

Greg, I live near CRW, about 69 miles from you as the crow flies. 
 
If you need help getting on Topband, send an email to me with your phone number 
and I will call you.  
 
73 Charlie N8RR 
weeks...@suddenlink.net 
 

 
 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:05:34 -0500
 From: mikew...@gmail.com
 To: topband@contesting.com
 Subject: Re: Topband: location
 
 Hello Greg,
 
 We see the photo there. How big is your lot?
 
 If there's any way to get coax from your house into those big woods to the
 east or west, you might have it made. You could use the trees as antenna
 supports for an inverted-L and Beverages.
 
 73, Mike
 www.w0btu.com
 
 On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Greg Hill kd8...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 
  look me up on qrz I need help trying to get on 160 meters.
 
 _
 Topband Reflector
  
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[Charlie Young]

Greg, correction on the email address to use.   Use weeks...@hotmail.com
 
 

 
 From: weeks...@hotmail.com
 To: topband@contesting.com; kd8...@suddenlink.net
 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:06:48 -0500
 Subject: Re: Topband: location
 
 Greg, I live near CRW, about 69 miles from you as the crow flies. 
  
 If you need help getting on Topband, send an email to me with your phone 
 number and I will call you.  
  
 73 Charlie N8RR 
 weeks...@suddenlink.net 
  
 
  
  Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:05:34 -0500
  From: mikew...@gmail.com
  To: topband@contesting.com
  Subject: Re: Topband: location
  
  Hello Greg,
  
  We see the photo there. How big is your lot?
  
  If there's any way to get coax from your house into those big woods to the
  east or west, you might have it made. You could use the trees as antenna
  supports for an inverted-L and Beverages.
  
  73, Mike
  www.w0btu.com
  
  On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Greg Hill kd8...@suddenlink.net wrote:
  
   look me up on qrz I need help trying to get on 160 meters.
  
  _
  Topband Reflector
 
 _
 Topband Reflector
  
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Location of beverage close to 60 ft hill

[wa3mej]

Tom, 

  I only have about 491 ft of window line and thats what I am using for the two 

direction beverage. Placement is in part dictated by the hill but mostly the 
rationalle 

for the 300 or so feet from the inverted L is that it has a lot of noise.  It 
is terrible actually 

much of which is due to the McMansions they built in the farmers field next to 
me.. UGH! 

I didnt realize how good I had it. .. you know the ones.. they have several 
large screen 

plasma TVs and loud parties during football, baseball, hockey and basketball 
season. 

Geeze thats just about all year of interference. 



ANyhow over the last 5 years it has gotten progressively worse.  I dont want to 
take a chance 

on ANY noise being picked up on the beverage and I thought that the hill would 
be a nice 

natural barrier and it just happens to be about 300 ft away. 



Hum  I wonder .. leme see can I paint a target on the side of their houses 
and call in a 

JDAM strike to get rid of the noise.. OHH NO cant .. sorry thinking out loud 
again. 



Seriously.. it is all about mitigating as much noise as possible. 



Thanks to all of those that responded with encouragement during this effort. 



Jim WA3MEJ 
-- 

Message: 1 
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 02:11:52 -0500 
From: Tom McAlee t...@klient.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: Location of beverage close to 60 ft hill 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Message-ID: 09bf01cca4f8$31e41e60$95ac5b20$@com 
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 

Go for it.  I live in the middle of the Appalachians and my Beverage wires go 
up and down many hills and valleys and cross many ravines and work great.  On 
their worst day they still hear things my TX vertical couldn't hear on its best 
day :) 

 Comments Please 

1. Why the need to keep it 300' from the inverted L?  You can read a lot about 
how they should be far apart, but (outside of multiband contest stations where 
one radio is trying to listen on the Beverage while another is transmitting) it 
may not be so important in practice.  I will explain my experience... 

A few years ago I put up 580' Beverage antennas for NW, NE, SE, and SW.  I read 
that they should be far from the TX antennas, so the closest point from any of 
those RX antennas to any TX antenna is about 1000'. 

To cover the missing directions, I put up a 4 square receive antenna from a 
popular manufacturer.  But, I found that the Beverage antennas were (usually, 
but not ALWAYS) better than the 4 square even in its favored directions.  So, I 
decided to put up Beverages for N, E, S, and W also. 

N and S were no problem.  But, when it came to E and W there was an issue.  All 
of my Beverage antennas are installed on my neighbors property.  It is 32 acres 
(surrounded east through west by 1.6 million acres of national forest!) but 
very long.  It is about 400' wide by about 3200' long with an odd triangle 
shape at the far end, all pointed slightly northwest.  I am on the west side of 
that property. 

A 580' East/West Beverage would just not fit on his property unless I put it in 
that odd triangle area at the end, which was about 2500' from my house!  
Alternatively, I could put it in the area where his property and my property 
lined up.  That would give me 800' E/W to work with, but it would mean that the 
Beverage would come within 100' of my TX vertical (and the miles upon miles of 
radial wires that lay on/in the ground around them). 

I consulted my friend and antenna mentor Frank, W3LPL.  Frank suggested that I 
first put up the E/W Beverage where it was close to the TX vertical.  If the 
noise wasn't any louder than it was on the other 6 Beverage directions it was 
fine.  Otherwise, he recommended going the 2500' away route. 

I did as he suggested and it turned out to be just fine.  My E/W Beverage, 
which runs within 100' of my 160m TX vertical and 80m vertical array, doesn't 
have any more noise than the other 6 directions whose combined closest point is 
1000' away from the TX antennas (the furthest points are much further!)  The 
S/N ratio on the E/W antenna is not discernibly different than the other 6 
directions. 

If I were a multi-band (multi/multi or SO2R) contest station I suspect I would 
have issues trying to listen on that antenna while transmitting.  But, for 
DXing purposes, it works very well. 

It is worth noting that this antenna merely passes by one or more TX 
verticals within 100'; the feedpoint is several hundred feet from any TX 
vertical and doesn't line up with the base of any TX vertical in a targeted 
direction. 

2. You said your target was EU and AF.  I have found (from southwestern VA 
where the bearings aren't much different than they are in MD) that an EU 
Beverage and an AF Beverage are two different antennas.  At least with 580' 
antennas, 45 degrees is great to EU and northern AF while 90 degrees is great 
to central/southern AF (and ok to northern AF

Re: Topband: Location of beverage close to 60 ft hill

[Mike Waters]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 1:11 AM, Tom McAlee t...@klient.com wrote:


 1. Why the need to keep it 300' from the inverted L?  ...  My E/W
 Beverage, which runs within 100' of my 160m TX vertical ... It is worth
 noting that this antenna merely passes by one or more TX verticals within
 100'; the feedpoint is several hundred feet from any TX vertical and
 doesn't line up with the base of any TX vertical in a targeted direction.


Nothing wrong at all with doing it like this. The way this Beverage was
installed, the fairly deep null off its side was likely pointing at the
vertical.

However, pointing a Beverage at a TX vertical --and having the Beverage end
close to it-- is asking for trouble.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Topband: Location of beverage close to 60 ft hill

[wa3mej]

OK, 

  After surveying my property and getting permission from the neighbor to use 
his property 

I have decided that in order to get a beverage pointed to about 35 - 45 deg. 
(from MD) 

and keep the beverage feed about 300 ft from my inverted L feed point I will 

have to: 

a. cross a 8 ft wide stream 

b. run about 10-15 ft up a bank behind my house 



Let me put this in perspective.  Behind my house there is a dropoff about 60 ft 
down to a stream 

bed. My antenna will cross this and run partially up the bank. The feed point 
for the beverage 

is the part that is about 10-15 ft up the bank meaning that the antenna is 
pointing in the direction of the bank to get to the desired location 
(europe-africa).  



So here is my question.  How much will the bank immediately above the feet 
point. Should I opt for another direction instead?  



Comments Please 



thanks 



Jim WA3MEJ 
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: Location of beverage close to 60 ft hill

[Mike Waters]

Not to worry. Your Beverage will work fine, as long as you feed it, etc.
properly. They are not critical. It has well and often been said that
Beverages just want to work.

My NE-SW 580' Beverage crosses a ravine wider than yours, not to mention
running up and down a hill. Believe me, it hears very well indeed.

Over the years, I have read a number of experiences of hams with Beverage
antennas running up and down steep hills (some VERY steep) and crossing
ravines, and absolutely NO ONE reported anything but good results. :-)

When you cross a narrow stream or ravine like yours, there is no need to
exactly follow the contour of the land.

73, Mike
http://www.w0btu.com/Beverage_antennas.html

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:59 PM, wa3...@comcast.net wrote:

 a. cross a 8 ft wide stream

 b. run about 10-15 ft up a bank behind my house

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: Location of beverage close to 60 ft hill

[Tom McAlee]

Go for it.  I live in the middle of the Appalachians and my Beverage wires go 
up and down many hills and valleys and cross many ravines and work great.  On 
their worst day they still hear things my TX vertical couldn't hear on its best 
day :)

 Comments Please

1. Why the need to keep it 300' from the inverted L?  You can read a lot about 
how they should be far apart, but (outside of multiband contest stations where 
one radio is trying to listen on the Beverage while another is transmitting) it 
may not be so important in practice.  I will explain my experience...

A few years ago I put up 580' Beverage antennas for NW, NE, SE, and SW.  I read 
that they should be far from the TX antennas, so the closest point from any of 
those RX antennas to any TX antenna is about 1000'.

To cover the missing directions, I put up a 4 square receive antenna from a 
popular manufacturer.  But, I found that the Beverage antennas were (usually, 
but not ALWAYS) better than the 4 square even in its favored directions.  So, I 
decided to put up Beverages for N, E, S, and W also.

N and S were no problem.  But, when it came to E and W there was an issue.  All 
of my Beverage antennas are installed on my neighbors property.  It is 32 acres 
(surrounded east through west by 1.6 million acres of national forest!) but 
very long.  It is about 400' wide by about 3200' long with an odd triangle 
shape at the far end, all pointed slightly northwest.  I am on the west side of 
that property.

A 580' East/West Beverage would just not fit on his property unless I put it in 
that odd triangle area at the end, which was about 2500' from my house!  
Alternatively, I could put it in the area where his property and my property 
lined up.  That would give me 800' E/W to work with, but it would mean that the 
Beverage would come within 100' of my TX vertical (and the miles upon miles of 
radial wires that lay on/in the ground around them). 

I consulted my friend and antenna mentor Frank, W3LPL.  Frank suggested that I 
first put up the E/W Beverage where it was close to the TX vertical.  If the 
noise wasn't any louder than it was on the other 6 Beverage directions it was 
fine.  Otherwise, he recommended going the 2500' away route.

I did as he suggested and it turned out to be just fine.  My E/W Beverage, 
which runs within 100' of my 160m TX vertical and 80m vertical array, doesn't 
have any more noise than the other 6 directions whose combined closest point is 
1000' away from the TX antennas (the furthest points are much further!)  The 
S/N ratio on the E/W antenna is not discernibly different than the other 6 
directions. 

If I were a multi-band (multi/multi or SO2R) contest station I suspect I would 
have issues trying to listen on that antenna while transmitting.  But, for 
DXing purposes, it works very well.

It is worth noting that this antenna merely passes by one or more TX 
verticals within 100'; the feedpoint is several hundred feet from any TX 
vertical and doesn't line up with the base of any TX vertical in a targeted 
direction.

2. You said your target was EU and AF.  I have found (from southwestern VA 
where the bearings aren't much different than they are in MD) that an EU 
Beverage and an AF Beverage are two different antennas.  At least with 580' 
antennas, 45 degrees is great to EU and northern AF while 90 degrees is great 
to central/southern AF (and ok to northern AF).  A 580' Beverage pointed at EU 
won't hear central and south AF very well.  If you can do two, I'd recommend 
one at 45 degrees and one at 90 degrees.  If not,  I'd recommend one at 60 
degrees.

73,
Tom NI1N

-Original Message-
a. cross a 8 ft wide stream 
b. run about 10-15 ft up a bank behind my house 

Jim WA3MEJ


___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK