Topband: radial wire size
Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Jorge, It is a mechanical issue only, dependent on wire type. I used PVC coated copper and even thinner than #17. My 130 radials have been in situ for about 15 years. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - CX6VM Sent: 15 April 2015 12:11 To: 'topband' Subject: Topband: radial wire size Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Barbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Really? They are selling that? I can find tons of this, let me know if someone interested hi hi hi -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas s-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Loads around here too, some still in use. Some laying around on original spools, rusting away. Have pondered hooking up for Beverages. I think I can beat his price :-) 73/Jon AA1K -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - CX6VM Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27 PM To: 'Herbert Schoenbohm'; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size Really? They are selling that? I can find tons of this, let me know if someone interested hi hi hi -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas s-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Ladder line constructed from barbed wire, could be the best thing in ham radio since the G5RV. Art On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Really? They are selling that? I can find tons of this, let me know if someone interested hi hi hi -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas s-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make
Re: Topband: radial wire size
On Wed,4/15/2015 8:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. I agree that mechanical durability and environmental factors are the limit on the size and type wire for both radials and antennas. In my limited experience, the use of insulated wire significantly reduces corrosion. I've built a lot of wire antennas using THHN (ordinary house wire). When I've examined wires that have been up for 8 years or so, the only corrosion I've seen is very close to the ends, while the wire a few inches inside the insulation are clean and brite. I've since gone to hard drawn copper for my high wire antennas, primarily to minimize stretch. With 100# or more of tension on them, I had to lower my 80M dipoles every couple of years to shorten them. For hard drawn copper, I buy a spool of bare #8 from a big box store, tie one end to a tree, the other to a trailer hitch, and pull very slowly until it breaks. This yields hard drawn copper, roughly 15-20% longer, approximately #9. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- El software de
Re: Topband: radial wire size
I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.☺ http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials disappear because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609 Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net To: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com, topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through regular (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com
Topband: Radial wire size ?
I use 3 raised radials ~ 135 feet long of #22 ga. solid wire. used for dog perimeter control and is un-tinned copper covered with green plastic. The wire is about 11 feet high to keep it out of the way in the common property woods area of multi building condos and will be taken down when the weather starts to warm. The resistance of 135 feet of copper wire is: #22 ga. 2.18 Ohms #20 ga. 1.37 Ohms #16 ga. 0.5 Ohms Per the calculator at : http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html Measuring the current in each of the three 22 ga. radials with an old surplus RF ammeter while running 5 watts on 1.824 Mhz (in the middle of the afternoon :-) they measure in turn: 240, 120, and 170 ma. Would going to 16 ga. increase the radiated antenna current X times ? BTW, The wire held up very well in the many NH ice and snow storms this year but the green plastic coating reflects morning light and at dusk like a neon sign. Very scary in this condo enviornment with restrictive covenants and regulations. Next year I will try dull brown #16 ga. like the inverted U, which is far less visible. 72, Jim / W1FMR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire size ?
On 2/25/2014 9:45 AM, Jim F. wrote: Would going to 16 ga. increase the radiated antenna current X times ? Not enough to matter, but it certainly would not hurt. For next year, though, I would try to use more radials. Having them elevated is good, and elevating them even more is better. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire size ?
You could use the 18 gauge insulated stranded CCS (Copper Clad Steel) wire that Davis RF and The Wireman sell. The PE jacket is a matte black color and not very visible from any distance away. It's pretty strong too, and not very expensive. I use it a lot for wire antennas. I'm amazed your 22 gauge wire is holding up for elevated radials! Especially 135 feet long! I would expect such small wire to break pretty quick used in your application so I'm really surprised it's working for you. Regarding the resistance, I doubt it would make much of a difference. I'd go with larger wire more for strength than anything else. I use 18 gauge solid copper for my own on-ground radials (but I have some 40(ish) of them). -Bill I use 3 raised radials ~ 135 feet long of #22 ga. solid wire. used for dog perimeter control and is un-tinned copper covered with green plastic. The wire is about 11 feet high to keep it out of the way in the common property woods area of multi building condos and will be taken down when the weather starts to warm. The resistance of 135 feet of copper wire is: #22 ga. 2.18 Ohms #20 ga. 1.37 Ohms #16 ga. 0.5 Ohms [snip] _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
