Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-08 Thread Christian Pietsch 
Hi Andreas,
hi Tor relay operators,

On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 10:14:08AM +0100, Andreas Krey wrote:
> It's not targeting tor node operators. Neither it is trying to
> make the tor project into a criminal organisation - it's the
> other way round trying to get at 'bad' onion site operators
> even if they are not part of a traditional 'organization',
> as in the internet time and gig economy there are les and
> less such.

I wish you were right, and this may have been the original intention
of this proposed law. However, influential committees have proposed an
amendment to the law that could be read as an attempt to outlaw Tor.

Here is the official summary of the amendment from the Bundesrat
website (from the tab “Ausschussempfehlung”). For a translation, see below.
https://www.bundesrat.de/DE/plenum/bundesrat-kompakt/19/975/10.html#top-10

---8<---
# Ausschüsse sehen noch Strafbarkeitslücken

Rechts- und Innenausschuss halten den Gesetzesantrag für nicht
weitgehend genug. Sie schlagen dem Plenum vor, die Strafverschärfung
für das Anbieten krimineller Dienste im Internet generell und nicht
nur im Darknet einzuführen. Alles andere sei nicht sachgerecht und
würde die Dreistigkeit des unverdeckten Handelns belohnen.

# Ausweitung der Strafbarkeit gefordert

Auch im Übrigen wollen die Ausschüsse den vorgeschlagenen
Straftatbestand erweitern. So soll nicht nur das „Anbieten", sondern
das "Zugänglichmachen" krimineller Dienste unter Strafe gestellt
werden. Diese Formulierung ginge weiter und erfasse beispielsweise
auch den Betrieb von so genannten "bulletproof hosters", bei denen
lediglich der Speicherplatz und das Routing für (kriminelle) Dienste
Dritter zur Verfügung gestellt wird. Erforderlich sei es auch, die
Tathandlungen um das „Erleichtern von Straftaten“ zu erweitern.

# Höherer Strafrahmen

Darüber hinaus fordern die Ausschüsse, den in der Vorlage enthaltenen
Straftatenkatalog zu streichen und das Anbieten krimineller Dienste
losgelöst von bestimmten Straftaten unter Strafe zu stellen.
Aufgenommen werden soll außerdem ein Auslandsbezug: Danach könnten
Leistungen eines Portalbetreibers bestraft werden, die im Ausland
angeboten werden und im Inland rechtswidrige Straftaten ermöglichen.
Der Strafrahmen ist nach Ansicht der Ausschüsse ebenfalls auszuweiten:
Von drei auf fünf Jahre.

# Weitere Ermittlungsmaßnahmen zulassen

Eine weitere Forderung betrifft die Ermittlungsbefugnisse, die an den
neuen Straftatbestand geknüpft sind: Anders als im Gesetzesantrag soll
nicht nur die Telekommunikationsüberwachung, sondern gegebenenfalls
auch die Online-Durchsuchung [Anmerkung: das bedeutet Staatstrojaner],
die akustische Wohnraumüberwachung und die Erhebung von
Verkehrsdaten zulässig sein. Um Straftaten, die mittels
internetbasierter Kommunikation begangen wurden, effektiv zu
verfolgen, seien diese Ermittlungsmaßnahmen erforderlich und
angesichts der Schwere der Tat auch gerechtfertigt.

Das Plenum entscheidet am 15. März, welchen Empfehlungen es folgt.
--->8---


My translation (based on an automatic translation by DeepL):

---8<---
# Committees still see culpability gaps

The committees on Legal and Internal Affairs do not consider the
coverage of the bill broad enough. They propose to the plenary to
increase penalties for offering criminal services on the Internet
generally and not only in the darknet. Anything else is not
appropriate and would reward the audacity of overt action.

# Demanding an extension of culpability

In addition, the committees intend to expand the scope of what
consititutes a criminal offence. Thus, not only the "offering",
but also the the "making available" of criminal services will be a
criminal offence. This formulation would go further and include,
for example, the operation of so-called "bulletproof hosters," in
which only the storage space and routing for (criminal) services
is made available to third parties. The committees also deem it
necessary to punish acts that "facilite committing criminal offences".

# Higher penalties

In addition, the committees request the deletion of the list of
criminal offences in the legal draft, and to make punishable the
offering of criminal services – without regard to certain criminal
offences. In addition, they suggest to add an international aspect:
According to this, it could become punishable to operate a portal
abroad that offers services that enable criminal offences to be
committed domestically. In the view of the committees, maximum
prison sentences should also be extended: From three to five years.

# Allow further

Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-07 Thread niftybunny 


> On 7. Mar 2019, at 10:14, Andreas Krey  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 06 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +, niftybunny wrote:
> ...
>> Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect to the 
>> internet.
> 
> No, that legislation is restricted to restricted-access sites, i.e. tor onion 
> services,
> or technially i2p as well (but nobody cares about that).

Nearly every site is restricted access. Log in to your Amazon account? Username 
& pw please. Restricted access. 
Want to read a Spiegel+ article? Log in … restricted access. 

To access the dark web markets you just needed an e-mail and make yourself an 
account with this e-mail.

> 
>> What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote drugs, 
>> weapons and cheese pizza.
>> Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have to 
>> process several accusations.
> 
> No, they want to make the 'silkroad' operators more easily targetable.
> At the moment you can operate a trading platform on an an onion site
> and claim to not know what is actually traded on that platfrom. This
> legislation feels like it is attempting to change that (probably
> in reaction to the platfrom that faciltated selling the waepon
> for the munich shooting).
> 

Agreed this is linked to Munich. The problem is: Its already outlawed. There is 
nothing new in this besides they dont want to convict someone with multiple 
crimes, its now summarised in one law.
The defence in Munich was: I didn’t know there would be weapons sold if I make 
a “sell weapons” sub forum. No shit Sherlock. 
 
> As for the broadness of the text - basically unless you're an
> onion site that isn't as well-known as walmart, you might always
> find yourself to be considere to fall under this law.

We have onion sites that do not sell drugs, weapons or cheese pizza. 

> 
> It's not targeting tor node operators. Neither it is trying to
> make the tor project into a criminal organisation - it's the
> other way round trying to get at 'bad' onion site operators
> even if they are not part of a traditional 'organization',
> as in the internet time and gig economy there are les and
> less such.

Agreed.

One more thing: 

The largest onion site should still be Facebook. 
You cant use Facebook without logging in. 
So its restricted.
As we learned there are lots of cheese pizza and other illegal stuff on 
Facebook.
So we will outlaw Facebook.

I´ll get the champagne.


> 
> - Andreas


Markus

> 
> -- 
> "Totally trivial. Famous last words."
> From: Linus Torvalds 
> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:29:21 -0800
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Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-07 Thread Andreas Krey 
On Wed, 06 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +, niftybunny wrote:
...
> Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect to the 
> internet.

No, that legislation is restricted to restricted-access sites, i.e. tor onion 
services,
or technially i2p as well (but nobody cares about that).

> What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote drugs, 
> weapons and cheese pizza.
> Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have to 
> process several accusations.

No, they want to make the 'silkroad' operators more easily targetable.
At the moment you can operate a trading platform on an an onion site
and claim to not know what is actually traded on that platfrom. This
legislation feels like it is attempting to change that (probably
in reaction to the platfrom that faciltated selling the waepon
for the munich shooting).

As for the broadness of the text - basically unless you're an
onion site that isn't as well-known as walmart, you might always
find yourself to be considere to fall under this law.

It's not targeting tor node operators. Neither it is trying to
make the tor project into a criminal organisation - it's the
other way round trying to get at 'bad' onion site operators
even if they are not part of a traditional 'organization',
as in the internet time and gig economy there are les and
less such.

- Andreas

-- 
"Totally trivial. Famous last words."
From: Linus Torvalds 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:29:21 -0800
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Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-06 Thread Herbert Karl Mathé 
Let's be pragmatic:

There's "anti-darkweb" propaganda been quite a while going on, mainly by 
Federal Criminal Police Office, backed up by Christian (so-called) Democrats, 
and the Nazi party, sure, pointing out like lots of children's lives could be 
saved, or saved from being abused, resp., when vanquishing "The Darkweb". 
Trucks (lorries), knifes, or similar potentially lethal objects are not on 
their agenda. Police spokespersons around the clock complaining being 
substantially disadvantaged - should say: retarded???

Unsurprisingly, police forces in any legislation are not neutral, these do not 
at all mirror society and its inherent diversity. Plus, police forces very 
indirectly are serving the public, with any misdemeanor or assaults to be 
prosecuted not before afterwards by taking complex, costly and risky legal 
actions, never immediately, or right in place. That makes a huge difference.

What this legislation is very likely ending up is various courts ruling through 
verdicts on eventually shutting down specific sites. These verdicts might 
easily appear as being random, which is due to immense lack of in-depth 
knowledge in related matters (see file sharing dissuasions by dedicated law 
firms being backed by courts having difficulties understanding IP addresses), 
also due to each and every court ruling independent which makes it like 
gambling, these courts at the same time being highly susceptible to what is 
believed by them to be public opinion.

The latter is what's being made up right with this legislative initiative, 
leveraging Tor Project for staging some threat model. Cynically enough, threat 
(by The Onion) again is from foreign, just like for some time refugees had been 
said to be (evil propaganda which obviously, and thank god, did not fully work 
out).

In phase of weakness, it's always the outlandish being plead guilty, being 
abused to deviate from domestic, and home-made, self-made failure.

No facts yet, just some reflected opinions - as soon as such legislation is out 
it'll be much harder to defend liberty. It's not about paragraphs, or bits and 
bytes, it's about freedom and democracy.

Free press, and journalists as individuals will as consequence be under heavy 
suspicion for cooperating with elements of Dark Web.

If Germany falls...

--
Herbert Karl Mathé

m...@hkmathe.de
PGP B9BF953500452875  https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt
@hkmathe
Beethovenstr. 13  60325 Frankfurt  Germany




On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +0100
niftybunny  wrote:

> > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
> > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
> > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."  
> 
> 
> Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect to the 
> internet. What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote 
> drugs, weapons and cheese pizza.
> Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have to 
> process several accusations.
> 
> I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed in this case.
> 
> > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung 
> > von Straftaten genutzt
> > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “  
> 
> Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a market which prime directive is 
> to sell drugs, weapons and CP.
> 
> > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a 
> > criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.  
> 
> Dear god … 
> 
> 
> > On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm  wrote:
> > 
> > Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:
> > 
> > Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the sentences below).
> > 
> > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
> > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
> > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
> > 
> > "Second, the availability of each
> > Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any
> > Criminal offenses is equally punishable."
> > 
> > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung 
> > von Straftaten genutzt
> > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "
> > 
> > "Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target direction for 
> > the promotion of criminal offenses
> > be excluded from the facts."
> > 
> > https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates operators. 
> > Is my relay abroad illegal because I'm German?
> > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a 
> > criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.
> > 
> > Olaf
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink:  
> >> News from german country NRW -
> >> There

Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-06 Thread niftybunny 
> "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
> internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
> Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."


Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect to the 
internet. What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote 
drugs, weapons and cheese pizza.
Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have to 
process several accusations.

I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed in this case.

> "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von 
> Straftaten genutzt
> werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “

Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a market which prime directive is to 
sell drugs, weapons and CP.

> Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a 
> criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.

Dear god … 


> On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm  wrote:
> 
> Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:
> 
> Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the sentences below).
> 
> "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
> internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
> Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
> 
> "Second, the availability of each
> Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any
> Criminal offenses is equally punishable."
> 
> "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von 
> Straftaten genutzt
> werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "
> 
> "Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target direction for the 
> promotion of criminal offenses
> be excluded from the facts."
> 
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1
>  
> 
> 
> I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates operators. Is 
> my relay abroad illegal because I'm German?
> Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a 
> criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.
> 
> Olaf
> 
> 
> 
> Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink:
>> News from german country NRW -
>> There is a gouvernment bill about criminalizing TOR!
>> 
>> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays 
>> 
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-06 Thread Olaf Grimm 
Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:

Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the sentences below).

"Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."

"Second, the availability of each
Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any
Criminal offenses is equally punishable."

"Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung
von Straftaten genutzt
werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "

"Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target direction
for the promotion of criminal offenses
be excluded from the facts."

https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1

I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates
operators. Is my relay abroad illegal because I'm German?
Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in
a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.

Olaf



Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink:
> News from german country NRW -
> There is a gouvernment bill about criminalizing TOR!
>
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1
>
>
>
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Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-06 Thread Herbert Karl Mathé 
$Tor  mentioned too often, around 13 times in 17-page pdf, named specifically, 
and explicitly in order not to be taken seriously.

What else but criminalizing? Call it pro law-and-order populism.

Once more: Christian "Democrats" led government, this case of North 
Rhine-Westphalia.


--
Herbert Karl Mathé

m...@hkmathe.de
PGP B9BF953500452875  https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt
@hkmathe
Beethovenstr. 13  60325 Frankfurt  Germany



On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:48:53 +0100
niftybunny  wrote:

> U no it isn’t.
> 
> > On 6. Mar 2019, at 15:47, Volker Mink  wrote:
> > 
> > News from german country NRW -
> > There is a gouvernment bill about criminalizing TOR!
> > 
> > https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > ___
> > tor-relays mailing list
> > tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
> > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays  
> 


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Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-06 Thread niftybunny 
U no it isn’t.

> On 6. Mar 2019, at 15:47, Volker Mink  wrote:
> 
> News from german country NRW -
> There is a gouvernment bill about criminalizing TOR!
> 
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1
> 
> 
>  
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[tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR

2019-03-06 Thread Volker Mink 
News from german country NRW -
There is a gouvernment bill about criminalizing TOR!

https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile=1


 
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