Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Nathaniel Suchy (Lunorian)]

They are slowly becoming an AWS Clone - they keep adding more and more
services making the UI Confusing. Now they've even copied AWSs bill per
GB. What's next?

Ralph Seichter:
> On 02.05.18 18:17, mick wrote:
> 
>> Following this I went back to Rafael Rosa, the Product Manager at
>> DigitalOcean who originally sent the email about the changes seeking
>> clarification.
> 
> I also had a back-and-forth with DigitalOcean support staff. Sadly, no
> revelations ensued, so I'll be closing my DO account at the end of this
> month.
> 
> /me shrugs
> 
> -Ralph
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Ralph Seichter]

On 02.05.18 18:17, mick wrote:

> Following this I went back to Rafael Rosa, the Product Manager at
> DigitalOcean who originally sent the email about the changes seeking
> clarification.

I also had a back-and-forth with DigitalOcean support staff. Sadly, no
revelations ensued, so I'll be closing my DO account at the end of this
month.

/me shrugs

-Ralph

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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[mick]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:15:35 +
Cody Logan  allegedly wrote:

> Regarding grandfathered accounts, section 3.7 of their terms of
> service is worth a closer look:
> 
> “Subscribers of Grandfathered Accounts must NOT: (i) run Torrents for
> download or Seed Servers, TOR, or services that include content of an
> adult or pornographic nature [...] or otherwise circumvent the
> intended fair usage of free bandwidth by distributing it freely to
> others. Failure of Subscribers of Grandfathered Accounts to follow
> these terms will result in the revocation of their Accounts'
> grandfathered status.”
> 
> https://www.digitalocean.com/legal/terms/
> 

All 

Following this I went back to Rafael Rosa, the Product Manager at
DigitalOcean who originally sent the email about the changes seeking
clarification. I also pointed him to the discussion here on this list
because I was unlikely to be the only one affected by the change. 

Following several emails Rafael kindly confirmed that so long as my
droplet was not the source of any "abuse" reported to DO by third
parties I could continue as is. By "abuse" RR meant hostile activity
such as port scanning. I pointed out that since my droplet was a
non-exit relay, then it would be unlikely to be the source of
such activity. RR did say however, that non "grandfathered" accounts
would in future automatically be billed for any over limit bandwidth
usage. I should also note here that exit relays are, by their nature,
likely to see activity which DO might categorise as abuse so any exit
relay operators using DO should take care.

Our correspondence is shown below. Rafael has kindly agreed that I may
share this with the list and I am grateful to him for that agreement. I
am also exceptionally grateful for the continued ability to provide my
Tor node to the community at its current usage level without
incurring the sort of financial penalty I could have expected.

My thanks to all at DO and to Rafael in particular for this.


Mick


-- correspondence --

RR original email

Hello, 

I’m Rafael Rosa, Product Manager at DigitalOcean. I want to share a
heartfelt thank you for being such a valued, long-time customer. As you
may know, we’ve made some updates to our bandwidth pricing plans 
. With gratitude for your
loyalty, we want to assure you that your account has been grandfathered
into your current pricing plan and you will not incur any charges for
bandwidth usage as long as you comply with the guidelines outlined in
section 3.7 of our Terms of Service
. 

If you are interested in viewing your bandwidth usage, you can now
track usage in the billing page
 where Droplet data
transfer is updated daily. And if you’re curious to learn more about
the details of the bandwidth update, I encourage you to take a look at
this FAQ page
.
 

Happy Coding,

Rafael Rosa
Product Manager, DigitalOcean


Me

Many thanks for this. However, I note that section 3.7 says, inter alia:

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, Subscribers of
Grandfathered Accounts must NOT: (i) run Torrents for download or Seed
Servers, TOR, or services that include content of an adult or
pornographic nature; (ii) resell services through their Account to
provide free bandwidth to other individuals;"

My droplet "roof.rlogin.net" is , and always has been, a Tor (not
"TOR") relay node.

Do I take it from section 3.7 that you will no longer permit that? If
so, I will need to move to another provider.


RR

Sorry about the delay in replying. So, the current policy does have a
restriction on tor nodes, but we are not enforcing it automatically. As
long as we don't detect abuse it should be fine.

I hope this helps.


Me

Many thanks for this, but with respect the answer is a little
ambiguous. Your policy statement at 3.7 of your ToS implies that any
bandwidth usage above that permitted wil be chargeable /regardless/ of
grandfather status if that bandwidth is "given away" to third parties
(such as through Tor). Yet you say here that you are "not enforcing
that automatically". How will I know if/when you do decide to enforce
that? And what do you define as "abuse"?

I am sure that you will understand that I need clarification because I
could potentially be hit with a severe financial penalty should you
choose to enforce the policy without my noticing. I appreciate that as
a $10.00 a month customer I am getting a phenomenally good deal and
fully accept that I may have to pay more in future (regardless of your
original offer back in 2013 of "free bandwidth forever" when I was
grandfathered in). If I have to throttle my Tor node to a particular
level of usage then I need to know what that "acceptable usage" level
would be.

I am not alone in this position. 

Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[grarpamp]

> Have a look at https://lowendtalk.com/categories/offers they usually have good
> offers in various locations.

Operators can also post there and webhostingtalk colotalk
dslreports and some network operator groups, etc...
seeking services. Many have roots and would like to help
the various overlay networks, you just have to find them.
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Vasilis]

Hi,

pikami:
> Does anyone know where I should move my relay?
> I can't afford to spend a lot of money, I can only do 5$ a month.

Have a look at https://lowendtalk.com/categories/offers they usually have good
offers in various locations.


Cheers,
 ~Vasilis
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Roman Mamedov]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:53:56 +0300
pikami  wrote:

> Does anyone know where I should move my relay?
> I can't afford to spend a lot of money, I can only do 5$ a month.

There's not a lot of hosts with cheap unmetered bandwidth -- OVH and
Online.net come to mind -- and the majority of them is already heavily used
for Tor (so it's not advised to add more).

Consider switching your relay to a bridge instead, those consume little
bandwidth and can even be run at home (if your connection is stable enough).

-- 
With respect,
Roman
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[George]

pikami:
> Does anyone know where I should move my relay?
> I can't afford to spend a lot of money, I can only do 5$ a month.
> 
> IMG_NETWORK_USAGE


It's comma-separated, but this list includes a number of VPS and similar
services that could be checked out.

Ideally, Hetzner and Digital Ocean, and OVH, should be avoided if possible.

https://torbsd.org/oostats/relays-cweight-by-asn.html

https://torbsd.org/oostats/relays-bw-by-asn.html

Being overly reliant on a handful of providers, particularly VPS
services, is a monoculture on more than one level.

g


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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[pikami]

Does anyone know where I should move my relay?
I can't afford to spend a lot of money, I can only do 5$ a month.

IMG_NETWORK_USAGE

On 2018-04-25 13:09, Ralph Seichter wrote:
> Looks like DigitalOcean has just begun measuring bandwidth usage
> "officially", starting yesterday:
>
>   
> https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/digitalocean-bandwidth-billing-faq
>
>   "Based on our analysis of the historical usage patterns of our
>   customers, less than one percent of users will exceed their pooled
>   allowance."
>
> I had heard of the One Percent, but never thought I'd become a part of
> that illustrious group... :-)
>
> -Ralph
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Cody Logan]

Regarding grandfathered accounts, section 3.7 of their terms of service is
worth a closer look:

“Subscribers of Grandfathered Accounts must NOT: (i) run Torrents for
download or Seed Servers, TOR, or services that include content of an adult
or pornographic nature [...] or otherwise circumvent the intended fair
usage of free bandwidth by distributing it freely to others. Failure of
Subscribers of Grandfathered Accounts to follow these terms will result in
the revocation of their Accounts' grandfathered status.”

https://www.digitalocean.com/legal/terms/

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 5:52 AM wan sabai  wrote:

> My droplet allows for 1TB . I suppose I'll have to find a part time
> job or make changes in the relay.
>
> eth0  /  monthly
>
>monthrx  | tx  |total|   avg. rate
> +-+-+---
>   May '17  2.69 TiB |2.74 TiB |5.43 TiB |   17.40 Mbit/s
>   Jun '17  2.75 TiB |2.79 TiB |5.55 TiB |   18.39 Mbit/s
>   Jul '17  4.17 TiB |4.22 TiB |8.40 TiB |   26.93 Mbit/s
>   Aug '17  4.75 TiB |4.84 TiB |9.59 TiB |   30.76 Mbit/s
>   Sep '17  5.26 TiB |5.36 TiB |   10.63 TiB |   35.22 Mbit/s
>   Oct '17  8.72 TiB |8.85 TiB |   17.58 TiB |   56.37 Mbit/s
>   Nov '17 12.44 TiB |   12.56 TiB |   25.00 TiB |   82.86 Mbit/s
>   Dec '17 11.27 TiB |   11.36 TiB |   22.62 TiB |   72.55 Mbit/s
>   Jan '18 12.17 TiB |   12.42 TiB |   24.59 TiB |   78.86 Mbit/s
>   Feb '18 11.23 TiB |   11.38 TiB |   22.61 TiB |   80.27 Mbit/s
>   Mar '18  9.00 TiB |9.10 TiB |   18.10 TiB |   58.05 Mbit/s
>   Apr '18  7.27 TiB |7.31 TiB |   14.57 TiB |   59.07 Mbit/s
> +-+-+---
> estimated  8.89 TiB |8.94 TiB |   17.83 TiB |
>
> Since I'm retired I will make changes in the relay.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 7:33 PM, Ralph Seichter 
> wrote:
>
>> On 25.04.18 13:33, mick wrote:
>>
>> > I had an email from them saying that as one or the group
>> > "grandfathered in" back in 2013 I could carry on regardless.
>>
>> Good on yer... DigitalOcean bills for outbound traffic, and with a price
>> of $0.01/GB (sadly not GiB) every TB in excess of a Droplet's monthly
>> allowance--a meager 1GB for their smallest model--will cost an extra 10
>> USD. Who has that kind of money?
>>
>> -Ralph
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>
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[wan sabai]

My droplet allows for 1TB . I suppose I'll have to find a part time job
or make changes in the relay.

eth0  /  monthly

   monthrx  | tx  |total|   avg. rate
+-+-+---
  May '17  2.69 TiB |2.74 TiB |5.43 TiB |   17.40 Mbit/s
  Jun '17  2.75 TiB |2.79 TiB |5.55 TiB |   18.39 Mbit/s
  Jul '17  4.17 TiB |4.22 TiB |8.40 TiB |   26.93 Mbit/s
  Aug '17  4.75 TiB |4.84 TiB |9.59 TiB |   30.76 Mbit/s
  Sep '17  5.26 TiB |5.36 TiB |   10.63 TiB |   35.22 Mbit/s
  Oct '17  8.72 TiB |8.85 TiB |   17.58 TiB |   56.37 Mbit/s
  Nov '17 12.44 TiB |   12.56 TiB |   25.00 TiB |   82.86 Mbit/s
  Dec '17 11.27 TiB |   11.36 TiB |   22.62 TiB |   72.55 Mbit/s
  Jan '18 12.17 TiB |   12.42 TiB |   24.59 TiB |   78.86 Mbit/s
  Feb '18 11.23 TiB |   11.38 TiB |   22.61 TiB |   80.27 Mbit/s
  Mar '18  9.00 TiB |9.10 TiB |   18.10 TiB |   58.05 Mbit/s
  Apr '18  7.27 TiB |7.31 TiB |   14.57 TiB |   59.07 Mbit/s
+-+-+---
estimated  8.89 TiB |8.94 TiB |   17.83 TiB |

Since I'm retired I will make changes in the relay.


On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 7:33 PM, Ralph Seichter 
wrote:

> On 25.04.18 13:33, mick wrote:
>
> > I had an email from them saying that as one or the group
> > "grandfathered in" back in 2013 I could carry on regardless.
>
> Good on yer... DigitalOcean bills for outbound traffic, and with a price
> of $0.01/GB (sadly not GiB) every TB in excess of a Droplet's monthly
> allowance--a meager 1GB for their smallest model--will cost an extra 10
> USD. Who has that kind of money?
>
> -Ralph
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Ralph Seichter]

Oops, need to correct a typo of mine:

> a meager 1GB for their smallest model [...]

The current monthly bandwidth allowance for DigitalOcean's smallest
Droplet is 1 TB, not 1 GB.

-Ralph
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[mick]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:33:16 +0200
Ralph Seichter  allegedly wrote:
> 
> Good on yer... DigitalOcean bills for outbound traffic, and with a
> price of $0.01/GB (sadly not GiB) every TB in excess of a Droplet's
> monthly allowance--a meager 1GB for their smallest model--will cost
> an extra 10 USD. Who has that kind of money?
> 

Not me. I think I'm immensely lucky to get the service I do.

Mick

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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[gustavo]

Hi

On April 25, 2018 11:33:11 AM UTC, mick  wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 12:09:24 +0200
>Ralph Seichter  allegedly wrote:
>
>> Looks like DigitalOcean has just begun measuring bandwidth usage
>> "officially", starting yesterday:
>> 
>>  
>https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/digitalocean-bandwidth-billing-faq
>> 
>>   "Based on our analysis of the historical usage patterns of our
>>   customers, less than one percent of users will exceed their pooled
>>   allowance."
>> 
>> I had heard of the One Percent, but never thought I'd become a part
>of
>> that illustrious group... :-)
>
>I had an email from them saying that as one or the group "grandfathered
>in" back in 2013 I could carry on regardless.
>
>Good job really, take a look at my vnstats..
>
> eth0  /  monthly
>
>   monthrx  | tx  |total|   avg. rate
>   +-+-+---
> May '17 10.71 TiB |   10.74 TiB |   21.46 TiB |   68.81 Mbit/s
> Jun '17 10.20 TiB |   10.24 TiB |   20.44 TiB |   67.75 Mbit/s
> Jul '17 11.92 TiB |   11.94 TiB |   23.87 TiB |   76.55 Mbit/s
> Aug '17 14.01 TiB |   13.98 TiB |   27.99 TiB |   89.77 Mbit/s
> Sep '17 12.28 TiB |   12.29 TiB |   24.57 TiB |   81.43 Mbit/s
> Oct '17 15.04 TiB |   15.06 TiB |   30.10 TiB |   96.53 Mbit/s
> Nov '17 15.25 TiB |   15.24 TiB |   30.50 TiB |  101.06 Mbit/s
> Dec '17 12.79 TiB |   12.76 TiB |   25.54 TiB |   81.92 Mbit/s
> Jan '18  7.97 TiB |7.98 TiB |   15.96 TiB |   51.17 Mbit/s
> Feb '18 10.53 TiB |   10.80 TiB |   21.33 TiB |   75.75 Mbit/s
> Mar '18 10.83 TiB |   10.78 TiB |   21.60 TiB |   69.28 Mbit/s
> Apr '18  8.38 TiB |8.37 TiB |   16.76 TiB |   67.94 Mbit/s
>   +-+-+---
>estimated 10.26 TiB |   10.24 TiB |   20.50 TiB |
>
Whooa

What size is that droplet? Is it in the US? Exit or relay?


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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[Ralph Seichter]

On 25.04.18 13:33, mick wrote:

> I had an email from them saying that as one or the group
> "grandfathered in" back in 2013 I could carry on regardless.

Good on yer... DigitalOcean bills for outbound traffic, and with a price
of $0.01/GB (sadly not GiB) every TB in excess of a Droplet's monthly
allowance--a meager 1GB for their smallest model--will cost an extra 10
USD. Who has that kind of money?

-Ralph
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Re: [tor-relays] DigitalOcean bandwidth billing changes

[mick]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 12:09:24 +0200
Ralph Seichter  allegedly wrote:

> Looks like DigitalOcean has just begun measuring bandwidth usage
> "officially", starting yesterday:
> 
>   
> https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/digitalocean-bandwidth-billing-faq
> 
>   "Based on our analysis of the historical usage patterns of our
>   customers, less than one percent of users will exceed their pooled
>   allowance."
> 
> I had heard of the One Percent, but never thought I'd become a part of
> that illustrious group... :-)

I had an email from them saying that as one or the group "grandfathered
in" back in 2013 I could carry on regardless.

Good job really, take a look at my vnstats..

 eth0  /  monthly

   monthrx  | tx  |total|   avg. rate
+-+-+---
  May '17 10.71 TiB |   10.74 TiB |   21.46 TiB |   68.81 Mbit/s
  Jun '17 10.20 TiB |   10.24 TiB |   20.44 TiB |   67.75 Mbit/s
  Jul '17 11.92 TiB |   11.94 TiB |   23.87 TiB |   76.55 Mbit/s
  Aug '17 14.01 TiB |   13.98 TiB |   27.99 TiB |   89.77 Mbit/s
  Sep '17 12.28 TiB |   12.29 TiB |   24.57 TiB |   81.43 Mbit/s
  Oct '17 15.04 TiB |   15.06 TiB |   30.10 TiB |   96.53 Mbit/s
  Nov '17 15.25 TiB |   15.24 TiB |   30.50 TiB |  101.06 Mbit/s
  Dec '17 12.79 TiB |   12.76 TiB |   25.54 TiB |   81.92 Mbit/s
  Jan '18  7.97 TiB |7.98 TiB |   15.96 TiB |   51.17 Mbit/s
  Feb '18 10.53 TiB |   10.80 TiB |   21.33 TiB |   75.75 Mbit/s
  Mar '18 10.83 TiB |   10.78 TiB |   21.60 TiB |   69.28 Mbit/s
  Apr '18  8.38 TiB |8.37 TiB |   16.76 TiB |   67.94 Mbit/s
+-+-+---
estimated 10.26 TiB |   10.24 TiB |   20.50 TiB |


Mick


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