Re: [tor-talk] StrictExitNodes deprecated?

2013-11-23 Thread Roger Dingledine
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 07:42:23AM +0200, Sherief Alaa wrote:
  I just see the options StrictExitNodes and StrictEntryNodes is deprecated?
 
 The correct syntax is:
 
 EntryNodes {node, node, ...}
 StrictNodes 0 or 1 #0 for disabled

No, you should not use StrictNodes with EntryNodes or ExitNodes. It
won't do anything (except confuse you I guess).

 Note: it's recommend to leave Tor handle your path selection
automatically rather than specifying one yourself as it can greatly harm
your anonymity.

This is likely still true.

--Roger

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Re: [tor-talk] How secure is check.torproject.org?

2013-11-23 Thread Katya Titov
Roger:
 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 07:35:54AM +1000, Katya Titov wrote:
 The advantage that I see is that is there is no way to directly
 access a .onion site without using Tor, so it is a clear indicator
 that Tor is in use, visible to the user.
 
 Not necessarily. Imagine a local network attacker who sees your
 request for a .onion address go out on the local network, and then
 supplies you with a DNS answer and then a webpage when you ask for
 one. Now you're not using Tor, but you think you are.

But if we're talking about TBB then a local network attacker should
never see the request, just the resultant Tor traffic. Unless my
understanding is very off.

 Now, it's harder for them to do that with
 https://check.torproject.org/ because of the https part, but the
 attacker could just recognize requests for check and route them
 through Tor, so the check page will congratulate you on using Tor
 when you're mostly not.
 
 The correct answer is for TBB to do some self-tests of its proxy
 settings, and not ask the big bad scary internet.

I certainly agree here, but I'm also a visual person. I use the Network
Map a lot to see that the traffic is passing through Tor. (This is one
of my issues with the 3.0 series - no Network Map. I've had a look at
writing FF plugins but they seem beyond my ability, or at least require
more time than I have available at the moment.) I guess that some way to
internally ensure that it is indeed using Tor as well as a visual cue
would be nice.
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Re: [tor-talk] Regarding #8244; Including a string not under authority control?

2013-11-23 Thread Sebastian G. bastik.tor
11.10.2013 15:44, Sebastian G. bastik.tor:
 Hello,
 
 beside having each authority call in for their vote about the random
 string, how about including a string in the consensus not under control
 by any authority?
 [...]

This has not received any comment whatsoever.

I had not wasted any thought on this since I posted it.

The reason for me bringing this thread back up is to avoid it being
overlooked, where I initially wanted to avoid to make the trac ticket
more messy with possible useless suggestions.

Regards,
Sebastian G.

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Re: [tor-talk] How secure is check.torproject.org?

2013-11-23 Thread Roger Dingledine
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 06:04:54PM +1000, Katya Titov wrote:
  On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 07:35:54AM +1000, Katya Titov wrote:
  The advantage that I see is that is there is no way to directly
  access a .onion site without using Tor, so it is a clear indicator
  that Tor is in use, visible to the user.
  
  Not necessarily. Imagine a local network attacker who sees your
  request for a .onion address go out on the local network, and then
  supplies you with a DNS answer and then a webpage when you ask for
  one. Now you're not using Tor, but you think you are.
 
 But if we're talking about TBB then a local network attacker should
 never see the request, just the resultant Tor traffic. Unless my
 understanding is very off.

If we're talking about TBB and it's working correctly, then there's no
need to check if it's working correctly, right? :)

Check.tp.o is from a time before TBB was standard, when users were trying
to muck with their proxy settings, install an extension, or otherwise
make their Tor work.

  The correct answer is for TBB to do some self-tests of its proxy
  settings, and not ask the big bad scary internet.
 
 I certainly agree here, but I'm also a visual person. I use the Network
 Map a lot to see that the traffic is passing through Tor. (This is one
 of my issues with the 3.0 series - no Network Map. I've had a look at
 writing FF plugins but they seem beyond my ability, or at least require
 more time than I have available at the moment.) I guess that some way to
 internally ensure that it is indeed using Tor as well as a visual cue
 would be nice.

If you trusted the old check, you should trust the new about:tor page
in TBB 3 at least as much. It's more accurate, and it loads quicker too.

As for having a network map for TBB 3, I agree in theory. But somebody
needs to actually do it. Promising routes include writing it into Tor
Launcher (harder to do, but easier to maintain and probably safer)
or writing instructions for how best to attach your (old, eventually
obsolete) Vidalia to your shiny new TBB 3.

--Roger

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Re: [tor-talk] How secure is check.torproject.org?

2013-11-23 Thread Katya Titov
Roger:
 On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 06:04:54PM +1000, Katya Titov wrote:
 But if we're talking about TBB then a local network attacker should
 never see the request, just the resultant Tor traffic. Unless my
 understanding is very off.
 
 If we're talking about TBB and it's working correctly, then there's no
 need to check if it's working correctly, right? :)

Well, yes, I guess so.

 Check.tp.o is from a time before TBB was standard, when users were
 trying to muck with their proxy settings, install an extension, or
 otherwise make their Tor work.

Yes, I remember the good old days ...

 If you trusted the old check, you should trust the new about:tor page
 in TBB 3 at least as much. It's more accurate, and it loads quicker
 too.

It certainly loads quicker. I'll need to trust that it's more accurate.

 As for having a network map for TBB 3, I agree in theory. But somebody
 needs to actually do it. Promising routes include writing it into Tor
 Launcher (harder to do, but easier to maintain and probably safer)
 or writing instructions for how best to attach your (old, eventually
 obsolete) Vidalia to your shiny new TBB 3.

Great idea, and so very easy. Just run TBB 3, and then run TBB 2.4. TBB
2.4 just simply connects and works. Network Map and New Identity both
work nicely. I can't stop FF from starting (well, I can, but not
cleanly) so any hints on that would be appreciated.

Thanks!
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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread andrew
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 09:48:57PM -0500, grif...@cryptolab.net wrote 1.4K 
bytes in 0 lines about:
:   Perhaps your most pressing concern should be about whether or not it
: protects its users, given that it's using Tor as the vehicle to attempt
: that.  And any failure to do so would have the side-effect of making Tor

I have lots of concerns, but I'm trying to discuss them with Cloud
Engines first, before responding to the handful of reporters looking for
quotes. The world press seems to want us at Tor to come out swinging and
just simply bash the Safeplug. Rather than simply hand over pageviews
to press properties, I'd like a real discussion with the Safeplug people
first. Working off facts and understanding their side is more important
to me than simply reacting with only half the story. The community here
seems to be doing a fine job of raising questions.

When I have a response from them, I'll either encourage them to respond
or share what I've learned.

-- 
Andrew
http://tpo.is/contact
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[tor-talk] (maybe OT:) Dispute between RMS and WK on License Change for the GPH

2013-11-23 Thread to_delete
Hi,

This is a bit OT, but it might be of interest here, too.

I don't know whether you follow the GnuPG mailing lists, but in case you
missed it: there has been a dispute between Richard Stallman and Werner
Koch on a license change for the GNU Privacy Handbook (GPH).
 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gnupg/doc/63276?page=last

I don't know them personally, but usually their wording in the mailing
lists is much more balanced; however in this case, there's been things
said that make me very concerned about the future of GnuPG, like
 Werner:
 I have always spoken out in favor of the GNU project - maybe now is
 the time to reconsider.

Currently it seems that the discussion has stopped without solution (or
maybe the solution to rewrite the documentation from scratch. IMHO not
a real solution).

To me, GnuPG is a key infrastructure component (same as Tor and the GNU
Project) and it makes me concerned, that RMS and WK seem to have a
personal conflict (as the arguments very quickly rose to a personal level).

What do you think on that situation? Is there a possibility to bring
them back to the round table, or otherwise solve the problem?

I don't want to post this on the GnuPG list, as it could look like
voting for one side. Maybe, what I want to achieve is that people who
are in closer contact with RMS/WK know about the issue and talk to them.
Of course I didn't ask RMS nor WK whether they would accept (or need) a
third party to mediate.

Both sides have reasonable arguments for their positions and personally,
I don't feel authorized enough to vote for one side.
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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread Mark McCarron
How about a certification program?  A company can donate some funds to have 
their product evaluated and if successful gain TOR Certified status.  It 
would stop all this nonsense and provide everyone the opportunity to request 
specific features or amendments to designs.

I understand that no one wants to become a gatekeeper, but ensuring the 
integrity of the underlying platform is critical.


 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 13:46:40 +
 From: and...@torproject.is
 To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
 Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug
 
 On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 09:48:57PM -0500, grif...@cryptolab.net wrote 1.4K 
 bytes in 0 lines about:
 :   Perhaps your most pressing concern should be about whether or not it
 : protects its users, given that it's using Tor as the vehicle to attempt
 : that.  And any failure to do so would have the side-effect of making Tor
 
 I have lots of concerns, but I'm trying to discuss them with Cloud
 Engines first, before responding to the handful of reporters looking for
 quotes. The world press seems to want us at Tor to come out swinging and
 just simply bash the Safeplug. Rather than simply hand over pageviews
 to press properties, I'd like a real discussion with the Safeplug people
 first. Working off facts and understanding their side is more important
 to me than simply reacting with only half the story. The community here
 seems to be doing a fine job of raising questions.
 
 When I have a response from them, I'll either encourage them to respond
 or share what I've learned.
 
 -- 
 Andrew
 http://tpo.is/contact
 pgp 0x6B4D6475
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[tor-talk] European commission seems to have unblocked Tor network

2013-11-23 Thread tor-admin
Hi,

in October I tried to access the blog of Neelie Kroes with Tor browser. Neelie 
Kroes is Vice-President of the European Commission and responsible for the 
Digital Agenda for Europe. At that time she asked the public in her blog about 
their views: 
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/kroes/en/content/internet-governance-
i-want-your-views

Using the Tor browser the access to the site was blocked with this message:

-
Access Denied

Your request has been denied for security reason.

If you believe that this request should not be blocked, please contact EC 
DIGIT SNet s...@ec.europa.eu.

If your request is urgent, please contact also the service helpdesk (+32)2 29 
58181. 
--

An email to s...@ec.europa.eu and the office of Neelies Kroes seems to have 
helped. In the mean time it is possible again to access the European 
Commission web site http://ec.europa.eu/ from the Tor network.

Regards,

torland




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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread Philipp Winter
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 02:22:48PM +, Mark McCarron wrote:
 How about a certification program?  A company can donate some
 funds to have their product evaluated and if successful gain
 TOR Certified status.  It would stop all this nonsense and
 provide everyone the opportunity to request specific features
 or amendments to designs.

I would imagine such a certificate to be quite misleading.  Even
professional code audits never catch all bugs.  So it would only
be a matter of time until one of these Tor certified products
would fail horribly which would then provoke reactions along the
lines of but... it was certified?.

Also, audits are one time snapshots.  The very first commit
after the certification process might already introduce new
bugs.

Cheers,
Philipp
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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread Mike Cardwell
* on the Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 06:17:24PM +, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:

 You shouldn't just route people through Tor without their knowledge.
 They need to understand the risks and adapt their use accordingly.
 
 And what is the risk of barebacking with a network?

When your traffic comes out of a Tor exit node, there is a significantly
increased risk of passive and active MITM attacks against you, and also
increased risk of being locked out of your accounts.

 Why should I let traffic trace back to my network?

 Does that user gather my consent for every action that will be tied
 to me? No.

I did not say, don't route people through Tor. I said, don't route
people through Tor without their knowledge.

-- 
Mike Cardwell  https://grepular.com/ http://cardwellit.com/
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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread Roman Mamedov
Some more information from [1]

- users can whitelist certain sites so that their use is not run through Tor.

- Users can also set up Safeplug to work on a per-browser basis, so for
  example Firefox may always run through Tor while Chrome won’t.

- users can also set themselves up as Tor nodes to help others surf
  anonymously (the default setting for this is “off” as it has bandwidth
  implications).

- People who are sceptical can look at the Linux level(sic) and see exactly
  what processes are running. Technical users can look inside the box and feel
  safe that it’s only running Tor.”

- Pogoplug has even made firmware updates for the device pull-only, not push
  – “If we pushed, we’d have to track all the boxes. It’s pull-based for
  security reasons.”

[1]
http://gigaom.com/2013/11/21/say-hello-to-safeplug-pogoplugs-49-tor-in-a-box-for-anonymous-surfing/

-- 
With respect,
Roman


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Re: [tor-talk] StrictExitNodes deprecated?

2013-11-23 Thread Joe Btfsplk

On 11/23/2013 2:16 AM, Roger Dingledine wrote:

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 07:42:23AM +0200, Sherief Alaa wrote:

I just see the options StrictExitNodes and StrictEntryNodes is deprecated?

The correct syntax is:

EntryNodes {node, node, ...}
StrictNodes 0 or 1 #0 for disabled

No, you should not use StrictNodes with EntryNodes or ExitNodes. It
won't do anything (except confuse you I guess).


Note: it's recommend to leave Tor handle your path selection
automatically rather than specifying one yourself as it can greatly harm
your anonymity.

This is likely still true.
What about when using TBB is desired, but sites (say web mail) won't 
accept addresses from countries other than used to sign up?
At least not w/o headaches - at times.  Just one example.  How can this 
be handled - or can it?

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Re: [tor-talk] How secure is check.torproject.org?

2013-11-23 Thread Katya Titov
On reflection, I think I should clarify ...

Roger:
 As for having a network map for TBB 3, I agree in theory. But
 somebody needs to actually do it. Promising routes include writing
 it into Tor Launcher (harder to do, but easier to maintain and
 probably safer) or writing instructions for how best to attach your
 (old, eventually obsolete) Vidalia to your shiny new TBB 3.
 
Great idea, and so very easy. Just run TBB 3, and then run TBB 2.4.
Vidalia from TBB 2.4 just simply finds the running Tor instance,
connects, and works. Network Map and New Identity both work nicely. I
can't stop FF from starting (well, I can, but not cleanly) so any hints
on that would be appreciated.

Thanks!
-- 
kat
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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread Joshua Datko
Gordon Morehouse has been spending a lot of time getting the Pi to run as
Tor relay: https://github.com/gordon-morehouse/cipollini

I've been running a BeagleBone Black relay on a home network for over 2
months now: http://datko.net/2013/09/13/update_bbb_tor/

Josh


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:43 AM, Chris Burge burgech...@gmail.com wrote:

 I very rarely (if ever) comment on this list (I like to read and
 learn).  That said, I've been looking into building a TOR router using
 Pi.  This is because I have elements within my home that are
 technically inept and thus are a danger to themselves and everyone
 else (ageing parents...what can you say).  I've been planning a coup
 by secretly replacing the current Tomato router with something like
 the Pi (I've been unsuccessful in getting TOR to work on the Tomato
 router).  The scare, to me, of buying a device is what is in there
 (things that compromise TOR) but it does tempt me because I'm lazy
 (probably the cause of my downfall).  Granted a router does not
 guarantee safety from Grandpa downloading something bad that
 compromises the router but one step at a time...right?

 On 11/22/13, Sean Alexandre s...@alexan.org wrote:
  On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 04:50:44PM +0600, Roman Mamedov wrote:
  https://pogoplug.com/safeplug
 
  Someone should buy this and post a teardown. :)
 
  (via
 
 http://www.cnx-software.com/2013/11/22/49-safeplug-tor-router-let-you-browse-the-net-anonymously/
  )
 
  I think these kind of devices configured for Tor make good relays, but
  aren't
  great for anonymity. Tor anonymizes your IP address and DNS requests, but
  application protocols can still reveal your identity.
 
  From Want Tor to really work? [1]: Tor does not protect all of your
  computer's Internet traffic when you run it.  Tor only protects your
  applications that are properly configured to send their Internet traffic
  through Tor. To avoid problems with Tor configuration, we strongly
  recommend
  you use the Tor Browser Bundle. It is pre-configured to protect your
  privacy
  and anonymity on the web as long as you're browsing with the Tor Browser
  itself. Almost any other web browser configuration is likely to be unsafe
  to
  use with Tor.
 
  Articles like these [2,3] should talk about being good relays versus
 being
  good
  for anonymity.
 
  [1] https://www.torproject.org/download/download-easy.html.en#warning
  [2]
 
 http://www.cnx-software.com/2013/11/22/49-safeplug-tor-router-let-you-browse-the-net-anonymously/
  [3] http://learn.adafruit.com/onion-pi/
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[tor-talk] tordns incapable of MX lookups (was Basics of secure email platform)

2013-11-23 Thread tor
1) Create a list of tor exit nodes that do not block port 25
2) Command the tor daemon to exit those nodes exclusively.
 SSL-SMTP configured to works over 465 port in most cases.
 On Windows Yes.
 SMTP over ssl/tls is configured on port 25. Starttls, aca
 submission, is configured for port 587

You guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.  Before talking ports
(which is a non-issue), realize that tordns cannot do an MX lookup.
This remains the biggest hurdle to sending mail.

Postfix must run with a transparent proxy (no SOCKS proxy capability),
so it relies wholly on tordns for MX lookups.  

Torsocks has a (now broken) feature to disable TorDNS.  If tordns
could be disabled, then postfix could do an MX lookup.  It would be a
leak, but at least it would work.  At the moment, the tordns disabler
has been removed, so there is no hope of running a mail
server... Unless someone comes up with a SOCKS-capable mail server.

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Re: [tor-talk] Safeplug

2013-11-23 Thread Yuri

On 11/22/2013 16:53, Red Sonja wrote:

How can one be sure that firmware that is running on the router is
built from this particular source code and not from some modified
version or different revision?

Hashes?

The ability to build it from sources?

If you search you can find a few other solutions.


Nope, there is no solution. Hash can only prove it comes from this 
vendor, it doesn't establish vendor trust. You practically can't prove 
that firmware is built from the particular source since it is 
practically impossible to duplicate the build environment for any 
complex project from the real world.




Also how can one be sure that one extra service wasn't added on top
of this open source?

Go for your own compile and see what's broken.


Sorry, this doesn't make any sense.


Open source only makes sense when built and installed by the party
interested in security, or maybe when it is built by some trustworthy
organization, like some trusted linux distro, and not just some
random commercial company without any reputation.

Not really. How about the tor project? Trust comes precisely from this
open source, open review. In fact, Tor is one step above: it's Free
Software.



Yes, trust comes with the open review, and transparent build process.
None of these is possible with firmwares supplied by commercial 
companies. Therefore, no trust. Product in its original form is pretty 
much useless for what it is advertised.


However, there are many useless products on the market, and commercial 
success doesn't seem to correlate with usefulness. So I only wish them 
well in their endeavor. Nice try anyway.


Yuri
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Re: [tor-talk] tordns incapable of MX lookups (was Basics of secure email platform)

2013-11-23 Thread Conrad Rockenhaus
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 8:04 PM,  t...@lists.grepular.com wrote:
1) Create a list of tor exit nodes that do not block port 25
2) Command the tor daemon to exit those nodes exclusively.
 SSL-SMTP configured to works over 465 port in most cases.
 On Windows Yes.
 SMTP over ssl/tls is configured on port 25. Starttls, aca
 submission, is configured for port 587

 You guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.  Before talking ports
 (which is a non-issue), realize that tordns cannot do an MX lookup.
 This remains the biggest hurdle to sending mail.

 Postfix must run with a transparent proxy (no SOCKS proxy capability),
 so it relies wholly on tordns for MX lookups.

 Torsocks has a (now broken) feature to disable TorDNS.  If tordns
 could be disabled, then postfix could do an MX lookup.  It would be a
 leak, but at least it would work.  At the moment, the tordns disabler
 has been removed, so there is no hope of running a mail
 server... Unless someone comes up with a SOCKS-capable mail server.

Well, there's a way to get this done, but it's not a *nix based
solution.  You can utilize ISA Server, Microsoft Exchange, and the
Socksv4 firewall client.  Use the ISA Server to centrally connect to
Tor, use the Socksv4 client to let Microsoft Exchange connect via
socks to the client.  It's something I'm willing to try out and see if
it works if anyone wants to know the results of such test, but I'm
pretty sure this type of solution should work.

-Rock

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