Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
Sorry for continuing an off topic discussion, but if your interested in the instability of Bitcoin, I recently did an in-depth analysis of some of the recent market behavior. You can find it here: The Bitcoin Bubble http://xqz3u5drneuzhaeo.onion/users/shew2/decentralization/20110615-the-bitcoin-bubble.php On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 05:40:27 +0200 andr...@fastmail.fm wrote: > Bitcoin is a scam. Money or value can't be created on a computer > (unless you consider the phoney fiat currency of the USD "money"). At > best bitcoin is a ponzi scheme where the initial holders of the digital > money get to see the increase in the computer value of the bitcoins they > "own" only to, at the right time, dump them onto suckers that got in the > this new fangled trickery at the end. Those that hold bitcoins at the > end will be at a loss as in reality, they're worth nothing. Bitcoins > are a classic example of the Wall Street method of Pump and Dump. Fake > or unrealistic information is circulated around the web about a certain > stock and how it's to perform which is always UP UP UP in value. This > is the Pump phase. The unsuspecting and gulible public rushes in to > purchase massive amounts of the (really) junk stock. The price rises > dramaticly. Those that promoted the stock then Dump itfast. They > make their profit and the dummies that believed the junk about how great > the equity was get stuck with a loss as the stock plummets. -- Shew pgpU1p5sbqweF.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
Eugen Leitl wrote: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:47:09AM -0400, and...@torproject.org wrote: For the record, Tor has not heard from the DEA nor US Senators about Silk Road. Hopefully they'll call first instead of sending SWAT teams. Shouldn't people in Ft Meade already know where the physical host for the hidden service is? They probably won't tell DEA, though. Yea..sh, but if its a CIA black op then gov officials will be playing stupid. "Duhh.. hey Joe, we know noytin .." Presumably, with quite a bit more work NSA could locate the real IP addresses of individual users as well. Though that would be more of interest to prolific Violent Desires posters. Steady on Eugen, this is a family forum. Joe ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
i think you read only first post on quora? :-) -- Jerzy Łogiewa -- jerz...@interia.eu On Jun 16, 2011, at 5:40 AM, andr...@fastmail.fm wrote: > Bitcoin is a scam. Money or value can't be created on a computer > (unless you consider the phoney fiat currency of the USD "money"). At > best bitcoin is a ponzi scheme where the initial holders of the digital > money get to see the increase in the computer value of the bitcoins they > "own" only to, at the right time, dump them onto suckers that got in the > this new fangled trickery at the end. Those that hold bitcoins at the > end will be at a loss as in reality, they're worth nothing. Bitcoins > are a classic example of the Wall Street method of Pump and Dump. Fake > or unrealistic information is circulated around the web about a certain > stock and how it's to perform which is always UP UP UP in value. This > is the Pump phase. The unsuspecting and gulible public rushes in to > purchase massive amounts of the (really) junk stock. The price rises > dramaticly. Those that promoted the stock then Dump itfast. They > make their profit and the dummies that believed the junk about how great > the equity was get stuck with a loss as the stock plummets. > > Whether the jackasses in the Senate want to go after bc or not doesn't > matter. Bitcoin will evaporate under its own weight with no help of the > government. > - > > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:41 -0400, "grarpamp" wrote: >>> Since it appears they're going to be targeting a Hidden Service, it will >>> be an interesting test of Tor's resilience given the resources available >>> to the US government. >> >> Guess they would have to block all the directory servers/mirrors. >> They probably don't care about drugs, underage and copyright stuff >> so much. But an untraceable, untaxable, easily used alternative >> currency that has value and works... now that might draw some >> global attention. Was not one of the topics at the recent G8 >> "What to do about the internet?" >> >> It would be interesting to see what might happen if directory servers >> could be run on the same SSL enabled server (and even port) as >> the various popular websites around the world, by their operators. >> >> Other than bootstrapping (via a shipped list or friendly tip), is there >> a way to make the directory services internal to Tor? Not sure there >> is due to chickens and eggs. >> >> Though with 9 authorities, 1200+ dirservers, and 2300+ relays, >> maybe no worries. >> ___ >> tor-talk mailing list >> tor-talk@lists.torproject.org >> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk >> > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software > or over the web > > ___ > tor-talk mailing list > tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk Dzwonki MP3 na telefon. To sa prawdziwe hity! Pobierz >> http://linkint.pl/f29c2 ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:47:09AM -0400, and...@torproject.org wrote: > For the record, Tor has not heard from the DEA nor US Senators about Silk > Road. Hopefully they'll call first instead of sending SWAT teams. Shouldn't people in Ft Meade already know where the physical host for the hidden service is? They probably won't tell DEA, though. Presumably, with quite a bit more work NSA could locate the real IP addresses of individual users as well. Though that would be more of interest to prolific Violent Desires posters. -- Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
Pad 0c wrote: - I bet on the fact that others will came after me. - I bet that bitcoin will be still used at some later point. Only the first describe a ponzi scheme and I think only the second apply for bitcoins. This is very true and is something which differentiates BitCoin from a ponzi scheme. The ponzi scheme is ALWAYS based on nothing right to its bitter end. But BC does have INTRINSIC value, because it... 1. has only a known/set limited availability 2. is provably unforgeable these are the qualities desirable in ANY value based exchange token (barter), whether it be gold bullion, chickens or sheep. This is why England used the "tally stick", for a long time, when England had no Gold etc, it generated a barter system based it. So BC is also a barter substitute (or currency), that is this all the same, its just a token between. At the end of the day, it matters not a single jot what its current comparative value is, as long a people are trading it. For day to day transactions, it is ALL that is needed. But for horders, banksters and other similar blood sucking manipulators, they cannot predict its value in the long term, and this they hate, as there is no "promise to pay the bearer" anything. So they will slander it. As more people trade in it, then the more stable it becomes, as people get frightened a government will collapse (not just outlaw) it, then its use will fall and so too will its price. I have had my own reservations about BitCoin, that is, that its designers did not anonymize BitCoins rendezvous and had non-anonymously centralized itself so it could be attacked by a hostile government, like it is being attacked now by the US. I think it is highly likely that the drug supplier "Silk Road" is a protected CIA black op. to attack BC and to destroy it. This was an obvious draw-back right from the start and was the reason I stopped generating BC's a long while back. Governments and other evil people do not play fairly, so never assume they will. The designers of BC did assume just that, and that was there error. To design adn test it was one thing but the implementation had to be completely anonymous. What needs to be done is that a NewBitCoin (NBC) system needs to be started up behind hidden services and for them to offer a swap with the existing BC. Perhaps there should even be "official" completely anonymous NBC consortium with several NBC servers each doing multiple NBC i.e. NBC1, NBC2, NBC3 etc (all interchangeable currencies - at least at the start), so as to be locationally robust. Joe ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:14 +0100, "Anon Mus" wrote: > Pad 0c wrote: > > - I bet on the fact that others will came after me. > > - I bet that bitcoin will be still used at some later point. > > > > Only the first describe a ponzi scheme and I think only the second apply for > > bitcoins. > > > > > > This is very true and is something which differentiates BitCoin from a > ponzi scheme. The ponzi scheme is ALWAYS based on nothing right to its > bitter end. > > But BC does have INTRINSIC value, because it... > > 1. has only a known/set limited availability > 2. is provably unforgeable Bitcoin fails on point 1 above as the market place and suppliers of the unit of exchange (money) can determine quantity and not some stupid computer. That's exactly what the Federal Reserve is doing now with their "quantitative easing" (inflation) methods. Bitcoin fails on point 2 above as someone will be able to figure out how to counterfeit a digital quantity. Let's see you counterfeit a 1 ounce Gold or Silver piece. > > these are the qualities desirable in ANY value based exchange token > (barter), whether it be gold bullion, chickens or sheep. This is why > England used the "tally stick", for a long time, when England had no > Gold etc, it generated a barter system based it. > > So BC is also a barter substitute (or currency), that is this all the > same, its just a token between. > > At the end of the day, it matters not a single jot what its current > comparative value is, as long a people are trading it. For day to day > transactions, it is ALL that is needed. But for horders, banksters and > other similar blood sucking manipulators, they cannot predict its value > in the long term, and this they hate, as there is no "promise to pay the > bearer" anything. So they will slander it. As more people trade in it, > then the more stable it becomes, as people get frightened a government > will collapse (not just outlaw) it, then its use will fall and so too > will its price > > I have had my own reservations about BitCoin, that is, that its > designers did not anonymize BitCoins rendezvous and had non-anonymously > centralized itself so it could be attacked by a hostile government, like > it is being attacked now by the US. > > I think it is highly likely that the drug supplier "Silk Road" is a > protected CIA black op. to attack BC and to destroy it. This was an > obvious draw-back right from the start and was the reason I stopped > generating BC's a long while back. Governments and other evil people do > not play fairly, so never assume they will. The designers of BC did > assume just that, and that was there error. To design adn test it was > one thing but the implementation had to be completely anonymous. > > What needs to be done is that a NewBitCoin (NBC) system needs to be > started up behind hidden services and for them to offer a swap with the > existing BC. Perhaps there should even be "official" completely > anonymous NBC consortium with several NBC servers each doing multiple > NBC i.e. NBC1, NBC2, NBC3 etc (all interchangeable currencies - at least > at the start), so as to be locationally robust. Bitcoins are worthless and have no value. Here's an article about Bitcoin from LewRockwell.com June 9, 2011 Bitcoin: Just Another Bogus Medium of Exchange Posted by David Kramer on June 9, 2011 03:00 PM I'm sure by now many of you have heard about Bitcoin. The fact that it's called "virtual currency" gives you an idea about its actual value as a real medium of exchange. While many people who are touting it on Facebook are enamored with the fact that it was voluntarily created by the marketplace (i.e., is not forced down our throats by a private central bank), I'm afraid that those people are losing sight of how a real medium of exchange arises in a free market. A medium of exchange arises from something that had a material use/value in the market prior to becoming a medium of exchange, i.e., it was also a good being bartered for other goods and services. Over the centuries, the commodities gold and silver won out as the two most preferred mediums of exchange—with gold holding the number one position due to its being more scarce than silver. What was Bitcoin's prior material use/value? Zero. It is just bits in a computer. And what's with the "fixed" amount of Bitcoins? Who/what determined the "proper" amount of 21 million for Bitcoins to top out at? A computer program? (Next we'll find out what the proper minimum wage should be.) Only the free market can voluntarily determine how much of a real medium of exchange is needed in the marketplace over time. While the idea of attempting to get rid of the Bankster monopoly on creating money out of thin air is commendable, Bitcoin is also money created out of thin air. Bitcoin is just substituting one bogus medium of exchange for another. UPDATE: I've been getting a lot of reader response trying to "explain" to me th
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
This thread has wandered way off topic. I suggest we let it die. The battle for bitcoin or not is already being fought elsewhere, on more relevant lists. For the record, Tor has not heard from the DEA nor US Senators about Silk Road. Hopefully they'll call first instead of sending SWAT teams. -- Andrew pgp key: 0x74ED336B ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
On Thu 16 Jun 2011 - 05:40:27 [+0200], andr...@fastmail.fm wrote: > Bitcoin is a scam. Money or value can't be created on a computer > (unless you consider the phoney fiat currency of the USD "money"). At > best bitcoin is a ponzi scheme where the initial holders of the digital > money get to see the increase in the computer value of the bitcoins they > "own" only to, at the right time, dump them onto suckers that got in the > this new fangled trickery at the end. Those that hold bitcoins at the > end will be at a loss as in reality, they're worth nothing. Bitcoins > are a classic example of the Wall Street method of Pump and Dump. Fake > or unrealistic information is circulated around the web about a certain > stock and how it's to perform which is always UP UP UP in value. This > is the Pump phase. The unsuspecting and gulible public rushes in to > purchase massive amounts of the (really) junk stock. The price rises > dramaticly. Those that promoted the stock then Dump itfast. They > make their profit and the dummies that believed the junk about how great > the equity was get stuck with a loss as the stock plummets. Money is not made to make people rich or poor. Money is here to ease trading. With this perspective the goal is not to get a pile of bitcoins and wait. You buy bitcoins or get paid with them and you spend them to get goods and services. On the ponzi scheme worry, one has to ask us which one of these holds: - I bet on the fact that others will came after me. - I bet that bitcoin will be still used at some later point. Only the first describe a ponzi scheme and I think only the second apply for bitcoins. Early adopters will get rewarded for the risk they took and the time they spent. Late adopters will benefit from a stable and secure money with a finite supply. Regards. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
All fiat money is a scam by this definition. Value cannot be created by print a paper (or in Fed's case, an open market operation) either, but that's what the governments do everyday. On 6/16/2011 11:40 AM, andr...@fastmail.fm wrote: Bitcoin is a scam. Money or value can't be created on a computer (unless you consider the phoney fiat currency of the USD "money"). At best bitcoin is a ponzi scheme where the initial holders of the digital money get to see the increase in the computer value of the bitcoins they "own" only to, at the right time, dump them onto suckers that got in the this new fangled trickery at the end. Those that hold bitcoins at the end will be at a loss as in reality, they're worth nothing. Bitcoins are a classic example of the Wall Street method of Pump and Dump. Fake or unrealistic information is circulated around the web about a certain stock and how it's to perform which is always UP UP UP in value. This is the Pump phase. The unsuspecting and gulible public rushes in to purchase massive amounts of the (really) junk stock. The price rises dramaticly. Those that promoted the stock then Dump itfast. They make their profit and the dummies that believed the junk about how great the equity was get stuck with a loss as the stock plummets. Whether the jackasses in the Senate want to go after bc or not doesn't matter. Bitcoin will evaporate under its own weight with no help of the government. - On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:41 -0400, "grarpamp" wrote: Since it appears they're going to be targeting a Hidden Service, it will be an interesting test of Tor's resilience given the resources available to the US government. Guess they would have to block all the directory servers/mirrors. They probably don't care about drugs, underage and copyright stuff so much. But an untraceable, untaxable, easily used alternative currency that has value and works... now that might draw some global attention. Was not one of the topics at the recent G8 "What to do about the internet?" It would be interesting to see what might happen if directory servers could be run on the same SSL enabled server (and even port) as the various popular websites around the world, by their operators. Other than bootstrapping (via a shipped list or friendly tip), is there a way to make the directory services internal to Tor? Not sure there is due to chickens and eggs. Though with 9 authorities, 1200+ dirservers, and 2300+ relays, maybe no worries. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
Bitcoin is a scam. Money or value can't be created on a computer (unless you consider the phoney fiat currency of the USD "money"). At best bitcoin is a ponzi scheme where the initial holders of the digital money get to see the increase in the computer value of the bitcoins they "own" only to, at the right time, dump them onto suckers that got in the this new fangled trickery at the end. Those that hold bitcoins at the end will be at a loss as in reality, they're worth nothing. Bitcoins are a classic example of the Wall Street method of Pump and Dump. Fake or unrealistic information is circulated around the web about a certain stock and how it's to perform which is always UP UP UP in value. This is the Pump phase. The unsuspecting and gulible public rushes in to purchase massive amounts of the (really) junk stock. The price rises dramaticly. Those that promoted the stock then Dump itfast. They make their profit and the dummies that believed the junk about how great the equity was get stuck with a loss as the stock plummets. Whether the jackasses in the Senate want to go after bc or not doesn't matter. Bitcoin will evaporate under its own weight with no help of the government. - On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:41 -0400, "grarpamp" wrote: > > Since it appears they're going to be targeting a Hidden Service, it will > > be an interesting test of Tor's resilience given the resources available > > to the US government. > > Guess they would have to block all the directory servers/mirrors. > They probably don't care about drugs, underage and copyright stuff > so much. But an untraceable, untaxable, easily used alternative > currency that has value and works... now that might draw some > global attention. Was not one of the topics at the recent G8 > "What to do about the internet?" > > It would be interesting to see what might happen if directory servers > could be run on the same SSL enabled server (and even port) as > the various popular websites around the world, by their operators. > > Other than bootstrapping (via a shipped list or friendly tip), is there > a way to make the directory services internal to Tor? Not sure there > is due to chickens and eggs. > > Though with 9 authorities, 1200+ dirservers, and 2300+ relays, > maybe no worries. > ___ > tor-talk mailing list > tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
> Since it appears they're going to be targeting a Hidden Service, it will > be an interesting test of Tor's resilience given the resources available > to the US government. Guess they would have to block all the directory servers/mirrors. They probably don't care about drugs, underage and copyright stuff so much. But an untraceable, untaxable, easily used alternative currency that has value and works... now that might draw some global attention. Was not one of the topics at the recent G8 "What to do about the internet?" It would be interesting to see what might happen if directory servers could be run on the same SSL enabled server (and even port) as the various popular websites around the world, by their operators. Other than bootstrapping (via a shipped list or friendly tip), is there a way to make the directory services internal to Tor? Not sure there is due to chickens and eggs. Though with 9 authorities, 1200+ dirservers, and 2300+ relays, maybe no worries. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
[tor-talk] US Senators Seek to Crackdown on Bitcoin
From the article as it applies to Tor: "Senators Charles Schumer (D, New York) and Joe Manchin (D, West Virginia) have written to Attorney General Eric Holder and the DEA asking that action be taken to crackdown on the Silk Road. Silk Road is an online exchange that deals in drugs and Bitcoins. Since the Bitcoin transactions are anonymous, and Silk Road is accessed through Tor, authorities have no way to track down users buying drugs." Original article here: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/us_senators_seek_crackdown_bitcoin A more verbose version here: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/09/senators-call-for-crackdown-on-bitcoin-as-drug-traffickers-take-hold/ Since it appears they're going to be targeting a Hidden Service, it will be an interesting test of Tor's resilience given the resources available to the US government. Take care, Chris -- Christopher A. Lindsey Garuda, LLC signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
