Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 09:13:39PM +0100, Julian Yon wrote: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:26:33 +0200 Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: So, let's please not overreact and let the people who want us to be manipulated by universal handles succeed. Because it's just where they want you to be: outraged, stupid, and easily goaded by the ring in your nose. I don't think such personal abuse is necessary. You don't seem to know what ad hominem is. Hint: this wasn't. In general, if a politician mentions any (or all) of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse and you're falling for it, you're thinking with your amygdala. Which is exactly where the manipulator wants you to be. The appropriate reaction is to yell Why are you lying? or accuse them of hating our freedoms, which they most assuredly do. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 07:34:48PM +, Lee Whitney wrote: Eugen do you have children? Not attacking you based on this but I'm curious how it affects perspective. Yes, I have a kid. Doesn't change a single thing in that attitude. In my mind it's pretty easy to drawn the line, things that have victims should usually be illegal and things that are unpopular but don't hurt anyone usually should be legal. No slippery slope necessary. Apart from that popular truism the only reason a politician will invoke one or more of the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse is in order to bamboozle his voters into something they ordinarily wouldn't do on the their own. Like Godwin's law, if a politician mentions pedophilia he has automatically lost the argument. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 07:34:48PM +, Lee Whitney wrote: Eugen do you have children? Not attacking you based on this but I'm curious how it affects perspective. In my mind it's pretty easy to drawn the line, things that have victims should usually be illegal and things that are unpopular but don't hurt anyone usually should be legal. No slippery slope necessary. ... and yet, we have seen child pornography convictions in recent years over cartoons [1] [2], written works of fiction [3] and obviously consensual photographs taken by the alleged victims themselves [4]. There does indeed to appear to be a slipper slope. [1] http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/120225-Missouri-Man-Pleads-Guilty-To-Possession-of-Cartoon-Child-Porn [2] http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/01/07/20-years-for-loli-manga-%E2%80%9Cvictims-don%E2%80%99t-have-to-exist%E2%80%9D/ [3] http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=213003 [4] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/15/self-made-kiddie-porn/ -- Andrea Shepard and...@torproject.org PGP fingerprint: 3611 95A4 0740 ED1B 7EA5 DF7E 4191 13D9 D0CF BDA5 pgprlRM81vRF5.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
This seems similar to when Australia outlawed porn involving women with small breasts: http://theweek.com/article/index/105766/australias-small-breast-ban Nobody is trying to support actual images of child abuse as far as I can tell in this thread. There are just some who think that anything that can be logically connected to child abuse should be illegal (like school uniforms, or small breasts), and some who think that only images that involve actual human children should be illegal. This also seems similar to when the UK tried to outlaw BDSM recently, presumably because it's similar to actual violent crimes (even though it would be entirely consensual). (I would like to declare myself personally as not being in either camp, but this entire conversation is vastly off-topic for this mailing list and probably an existential threat to the Tor project, so I'm not going to contribute further than this, hoping that I've elucidated some of the motivations behind the people involved such that everyone will stop talking about it.) On Sun, 2012-10-21 at 10:24 +0900, Nam Su wrote: I think there is some misunderstanding. Child pornography without child means video whose character looks under-19-year-old or wears a school uniform and animation whose character looks under-19-years old. However, there are a few sexual scenes in video, the video is child pornography. There is no principle. If south Korean police want to arrest netizen who download that video, they do it even Korean is democracy society. 2012. 10. 21. 오전 5:24 Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk 작성: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:27:13 +0100 Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk wrote: I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. Apparently I was wrong about this. *sigh* I guess I have to put up with more emails matching /child.*porn/ in my inbox, and hope the police don't add that to their list of reasons to harass us here in the UK. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk -- Sent from Ubuntu signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 07:39:41 -0700 Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote: this entire conversation is vastly off-topic for this mailing list and probably an existential threat to the Tor project, That was what I thought, but apparently that makes me pro-censorship. I admit to being successfully trolled, though. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
Julian, thank you for speaking your mind. I am also disgusted by the term and whatever it is supposed to represent. I don't contribute to Tor, so some dude in Korea can watch youth being abused in the name of entertainment, where some see pleasure and fun, I see misery and suffering. --SiNA On Oct 20, 2012 1:11 PM, Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk wrote: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:34:48 + Lee Whitney l...@whitneyland.com wrote: Eugen do you have children? Not attacking you based on this but I'm curious how it affects perspective. In my mind it's pretty easy to drawn the line, things that have victims should usually be illegal and things that are unpopular but don't hurt anyone usually should be legal. No slippery slope necessary. I am willing to declare that I do have children, and previously worked with kids. I also have experience of victims of abuse. In the case of pornography, there is a *massive* moral/ethical difference between images which clearly state “only adults are involved” and those which purport to actually involve children. I don't think “obviousness” of a fake is a viable criterion for determining the appropriateness of such material. I am an anarchist and don't think that legislation is ever the “right” solution to a problem, but as we don't yet live in an anarchy sometimes it's the best we're going to get for now. As anarchism is about protecting *everybody's* right not to be abused, campaigning for the legalisation of a crime with obvious victims (especially ones such as children who are naturally vulnerable) is not something I see as helpful. I don't think it's helpful for Tor (or Tor users) to be associated with that either, hence my decision to respond. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:16:44 +0900 익명 namfree...@gmail.com wrote: Please help us. Child pornography without child is illegal in south Korea. This is one of the most disturbing messages I have read for a while. I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
In the US it seems there is a lot the FBI could be doing about Tor services like these but I'm not sure what their staff's level of knowledge is. Do FBI computer guys stick mostly to forensics using off the shelf tools, or do they also have software developers and people who consider theoretical attack vectors? On 10/20/12 1:27 PM, Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk wrote: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:16:44 +0900 익명 namfree...@gmail.com wrote: Please help us. Child pornography without child is illegal in south Korea. This is one of the most disturbing messages I have read for a while. I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 07:27:13PM +0100, Julian Yon wrote: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:16:44 +0900 익명 namfree...@gmail.com wrote: Please help us. Child pornography without child is illegal in south Korea. This is one of the most disturbing messages I have read for a while. You seem to be uncommonly easily disturbed. Consider taking some Xanax. I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. There is a serious trend to outlaw many things, using pedophilia as bait. In some countries, possession and trafficking in computer-generated child abuse (with no actual child being abused) is considered to be in the same class, which is frankly idiotic, and a precedent which will be used to censor issues of relevance to *you* in future. So, let's please not overreact and let the people who want us to be manipulated by universal handles succeed. Because it's just where they want you to be: outraged, stupid, and easily goaded by the ring in your nose. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
Eugen do you have children? Not attacking you based on this but I'm curious how it affects perspective. In my mind it's pretty easy to drawn the line, things that have victims should usually be illegal and things that are unpopular but don't hurt anyone usually should be legal. No slippery slope necessary. On 10/20/12 2:26 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 07:27:13PM +0100, Julian Yon wrote: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:16:44 +0900 익명 namfree...@gmail.com wrote: Please help us. Child pornography without child is illegal in south Korea. This is one of the most disturbing messages I have read for a while. You seem to be uncommonly easily disturbed. Consider taking some Xanax. I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. There is a serious trend to outlaw many things, using pedophilia as bait. In some countries, possession and trafficking in computer-generated child abuse (with no actual child being abused) is considered to be in the same class, which is frankly idiotic, and a precedent which will be used to censor issues of relevance to *you* in future. So, let's please not overreact and let the people who want us to be manipulated by universal handles succeed. Because it's just where they want you to be: outraged, stupid, and easily goaded by the ring in your nose. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Lee Whitney l...@whitneyland.com wrote: In my mind it's pretty easy to drawn the line, things that have victims should usually be illegal and things that are unpopular but don't hurt anyone usually should be legal. No slippery slope necessary. I think it should be pretty obvious that “child pornography without child” is an unfortunately bad translation of an idiom in Korean that probably means something like “pornography which is incorrectly labeled as CP”. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading Julian's response, since, him apparently being from UK, his attitude reminded me of the following old story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/901723.stm. -- Maxim Kammerer Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:34:48 + Lee Whitney l...@whitneyland.com wrote: Eugen do you have children? Not attacking you based on this but I'm curious how it affects perspective. In my mind it's pretty easy to drawn the line, things that have victims should usually be illegal and things that are unpopular but don't hurt anyone usually should be legal. No slippery slope necessary. I am willing to declare that I do have children, and previously worked with kids. I also have experience of victims of abuse. In the case of pornography, there is a *massive* moral/ethical difference between images which clearly state “only adults are involved” and those which purport to actually involve children. I don't think “obviousness” of a fake is a viable criterion for determining the appropriateness of such material. I am an anarchist and don't think that legislation is ever the “right” solution to a problem, but as we don't yet live in an anarchy sometimes it's the best we're going to get for now. As anarchism is about protecting *everybody's* right not to be abused, campaigning for the legalisation of a crime with obvious victims (especially ones such as children who are naturally vulnerable) is not something I see as helpful. I don't think it's helpful for Tor (or Tor users) to be associated with that either, hence my decision to respond. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:04:35 +0200 Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su wrote: Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading Julian's response, since, him apparently being from UK, his attitude reminded me of the following old story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/901723.stm. Ah yes, I remember that story. What part of my “attitude” links me to such idiocy, exactly? -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:26:33 +0200 Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: So, let's please not overreact and let the people who want us to be manipulated by universal handles succeed. Because it's just where they want you to be: outraged, stupid, and easily goaded by the ring in your nose. I don't think such personal abuse is necessary. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:27:13 +0100 Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk wrote: I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. Apparently I was wrong about this. *sigh* I guess I have to put up with more emails matching /child.*porn/ in my inbox, and hope the police don't add that to their list of reasons to harass us here in the UK. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
At 09:24 PM 10/20/2012 +0100, you wrote: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:27:13 +0100 Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk wrote: I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. Apparently I was wrong about this. *sigh* I guess I have to put up with more emails matching /child.*porn/ in my inbox, and hope the police don't add that to their list of reasons to harass us here in the UK. Well, you are against so called 'child porn'? - deal with your police friends then. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
I am an anarchist and don't think that legislation is ever the ârightâ solution to a problem, but as we don't yet live in an anarchy sometimes it's the best we're going to get for now. I am an 'anarchist' who joins the state's witch hunts. Makes lots of sense. As anarchism is about protecting *everybody's* right not to be abused, campaigning for the legalisation of a crime with obvious victims (especially ones such as children who are naturally vulnerable) is not something I see as helpful. I don't think it's helpful for Tor (or Tor users) to be associated with that either, hence my decision to respond. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:22:31 -0300 Juan Garofalo juan@gmail.com wrote: I am an 'anarchist' who joins the state's witch hunts. Makes lots of sense. Feel free to continue creatively interpreting my words. I'll engage with it when you reëngage with reality. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
I think there is some misunderstanding. Child pornography without child means video whose character looks under-19-year-old or wears a school uniform and animation whose character looks under-19-years old. However, there are a few sexual scenes in video, the video is child pornography. There is no principle. If south Korean police want to arrest netizen who download that video, they do it even Korean is democracy society. 2012. 10. 21. 오전 5:24 Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk 작성: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:27:13 +0100 Julian Yon jul...@yon.org.uk wrote: I'm not quite sure what child pornography without child is meant to mean, but I don't think you're going to find much support for child sexual abuse (real or faked) on this or any other public mailing list. Apparently I was wrong about this. *sigh* I guess I have to put up with more emails matching /child.*porn/ in my inbox, and hope the police don't add that to their list of reasons to harass us here in the UK. -- 3072D/F3A66B3A Julian Yon (2012 General Use) pgp.2...@jry.me ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
[tor-talk] help us:Korean government started to fine netizen who download child pornography without child
Due to many sexual illegal behavior, Korean government started to block sexual video about under-18-old people(=underage video) Nowadays, in south korea, they started to arrest people who download underage video due to child-teen law(in Korean, 아청법) However, there is big problem. If the title of underage sexual video include teenor school uniform, although people in that video is adult, Citizen who download that video can be arrest and they can be fine ₩20,000,000(=$20,000) there is many people who download videos whose names include teen or school uniform and which has only adult actors so they'll be fine $20,000 although *50-year-old actor wear school uniform*!! I think there is *no freedom in south korea's Internet*. The problem is they can search private message! Some people was arrested because of they share that one with private message! Please consider referring this problem in your blog, website. We want free internet. Please help us? Please read this article. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/10/113_122397.html Please help us. Child pornography without child is illegal in south Korea. And there is a member of national congress. She has twitter account. @motheryyy If you want to help us, please contact me, and her twitter. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
