Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Hi Hendrik, Sadly, this happens from time to time. I am not aware of any case that could not be simply countered by explaining that you offer Tor exiting services to the public, and that you are not liable for the passing traffic. I really don't think it is necessary to consult a lawyer just yet. It is simply a threatening letter, and they usually don't bother with "more complicated" cases. They make money from the high percentage of people that just pay. Here's a quick draft of a reply in German: - snip --- Die von Ihnen genannte IP-Adresse wurde zum erwähnten Zeitpunkt X anderen Internetnutzern als "Tor Exit Relay" der Öffentlichkeit zur Verfügung gestellt. In Übereinstimmung mit dem Telemediengesetz §8 zur Durchleitung von Informationen hafte ich als Diensteanbieter nicht für fremde Informationen, die meine Systeme passieren. Da ich den Dienst kostenfrei anbiete, bin ich auf Basis von Telemediengesetz §15 auch nicht befugt, Nutzerdaten zu erfassen. Leider kann ich Ihnen mit Ihrer Anfrage somit nicht weiterhelfen. Ich versuche, Ihnen in kurzen Worten die technischen Hintergründe darzulegen: Zur Anonymisierung wird der Verkehr verschlüsselt durch eine Kette von unabhängigen Stellen betriebener Server geleitet und jeweils die Information entfernt, die einen Rückschluss auf den Pfad erlauben würde. Da zu jedem Zeitpunkt – je nach Geschwindigkeit des jeweiligen Knotens – an jedem Punkt mehrere zehntausend Verbindungen bestehen, wäre das Zurückverfolgen eines einzelnen Datenstroms, selbst wenn jede beteiligte Stelle weltweit die Verbindungsdaten vorhalten würde, durch den Aufwand der Rückverfolgung praktisch unmöglich. Wenn Sie weitere Fragen bezüglich dieser Dienste und dem Sinn von Anonymisierung haben stehe ich gerne für Rückfragen zur Verfügung. Ich verfolge mit meinen Tätigkeiten keinesfalls das Interesse, Straftaten zu verschleiern oder zu erleichtern. Eine Nachprüfung ist Ihnen selbst möglich. Unter https://metrics.torproject.org/exonerator.html?targetaddr=&targetPort=&ip=X.Y.Z.Z×tamp=20YY-MM-DD+#relay wird mein Anschluß für den Zeitpunkt der Tat als "Exit Relay" geführt. Mit freundlichen Grüßen - snip --- On 04.02.2013 13:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: > Hey guys, > > have been lurking here for a while, but now I need some advice on how > to handle this special situation: > > I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or > so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany > accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are > some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it > must have been a user from the TOR network. > > Now they want me to pay €1. (which I don't have due to recent > health problems and unemployment) and sign some papers. I'm not going > to do that. Even if it turns out to be more expensive, I'm looking for > legal advice now. So if you do happen to know a lawyer in Germany, who > knows about Torrents, TOR etc., please let me know! > > Also, I'd love to hear about similar experiences and how you dealt > with the issue. > -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Hi Moritz, thank you very much for your quick reply. The draft letter you provided is very helpful and I didn't know about metrics.torproject.org to "prove" that I was running an exit node on that IP address. I'll keep looking for a lawyer, though. Just in case. If you guys are interested, I'll post any updates here or blog about it. Cheers, Hendrik 2013/2/4 Moritz Bartl : > Hi Hendrik, > > Sadly, this happens from time to time. > > I am not aware of any case that could not be simply countered by > explaining that you offer Tor exiting services to the public, and that > you are not liable for the passing traffic. I really don't think it is > necessary to consult a lawyer just yet. It is simply a threatening > letter, and they usually don't bother with "more complicated" cases. > They make money from the high percentage of people that just pay. > > Here's a quick draft of a reply in German: > > - snip --- > Die von Ihnen genannte IP-Adresse wurde zum erwähnten Zeitpunkt X > anderen Internetnutzern als "Tor Exit Relay" der Öffentlichkeit zur > Verfügung gestellt. In Übereinstimmung mit dem Telemediengesetz §8 zur > Durchleitung von Informationen hafte ich als Diensteanbieter nicht für > fremde Informationen, die meine Systeme passieren. Da ich den Dienst > kostenfrei anbiete, bin ich auf Basis von Telemediengesetz §15 auch > nicht befugt, Nutzerdaten zu erfassen. > > Leider kann ich Ihnen mit Ihrer Anfrage somit nicht weiterhelfen. > > Ich versuche, Ihnen in kurzen Worten die technischen Hintergründe > darzulegen: Zur Anonymisierung wird der Verkehr verschlüsselt durch eine > Kette von unabhängigen Stellen betriebener Server geleitet und jeweils > die Information entfernt, die einen Rückschluss auf den Pfad erlauben > würde. Da zu jedem Zeitpunkt – je nach Geschwindigkeit des jeweiligen > Knotens – an jedem Punkt mehrere zehntausend Verbindungen bestehen, wäre > das Zurückverfolgen eines einzelnen Datenstroms, selbst wenn jede > beteiligte Stelle weltweit die Verbindungsdaten vorhalten würde, durch > den Aufwand der Rückverfolgung praktisch unmöglich. > > Wenn Sie weitere Fragen bezüglich dieser Dienste und dem Sinn von > Anonymisierung haben stehe ich gerne für Rückfragen zur Verfügung. Ich > verfolge mit meinen Tätigkeiten keinesfalls das Interesse, Straftaten zu > verschleiern oder zu erleichtern. > > Eine Nachprüfung ist Ihnen selbst möglich. Unter > https://metrics.torproject.org/exonerator.html?targetaddr=&targetPort=&ip=X.Y.Z.Z×tamp=20YY-MM-DD+#relay > wird mein Anschluß für den Zeitpunkt der Tat als "Exit Relay" geführt. > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen > - snip --- > > On 04.02.2013 13:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: >> Hey guys, >> >> have been lurking here for a while, but now I need some advice on how >> to handle this special situation: >> >> I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or >> so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany >> accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are >> some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it >> must have been a user from the TOR network. >> >> Now they want me to pay €1. (which I don't have due to recent >> health problems and unemployment) and sign some papers. I'm not going >> to do that. Even if it turns out to be more expensive, I'm looking for >> legal advice now. So if you do happen to know a lawyer in Germany, who >> knows about Torrents, TOR etc., please let me know! >> >> Also, I'd love to hear about similar experiences and how you dealt >> with the issue. >> > > -- > Moritz Bartl > https://www.torservers.net/ > ___ > tor-talk mailing list > tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Hendrik Neumann | tel: +49 (0)221 677 83 218 | web: http://armselig.me/ | blog: http://h4rk.net/ | twitter: http://twitter.com/armselig ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Hendrik Neumann wrote: > I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or > so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany > accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are > some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it > must have been a user from the TOR network. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they mixed up IP addresses or misinterpreted the results of their detection software ... > Now they want me to pay €1. (which I don't have due to recent > health problems and unemployment) and sign some papers. I'm not going > to do that. Even if it turns out to be more expensive, I'm looking for > legal advice now. So if you do happen to know a lawyer in Germany, who > knows about Torrents, TOR etc., please let me know! > > Also, I'd love to hear about similar experiences and how you dealt > with the issue. I generally ignore such donation offers if I get the impression that it has been created without human interaction. Otherwise I respond with a short explanation about Tor provided an email address is provided and I don't have to waste stamps. I don't see the point of consulting a lawyer if no court is involved as it makes it more complicated to get back the lawyer fees. The scam works by threatening enough people to pay up. Actually following through on the threads is more expensive than just writing more threats to other people. Fabian signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Hi, I've had one of those, too a few years ago. Not Tor related though, but for my privat internet connection at home. Interestingly enough I was on holidays during the time for which their "timestamp" claimed it had happened. So I explained that to them, but they didn't care. So I googled for an appropriate lawyer and took a "Erstberatung" which luckily isn't expensive in germany. My recommendation would be to send them the letter Moritz recommended, if they don't care, well find a lawyer who specializes in this. What the lawyer I talked to did, was to tell them, that I'm a university student and don't have any income, set up a "modifizierte Unterlassungserklärung" which we sent them and brokered a deal which was ~60 Euro instead of 1000 and I have never heard from them again ever since, nor have I payed a dime. From a friend of mine, who also got one of those, a few months back I heard, that he took on a lawyer who handles this by sending back a letter informing them, that "Störerhaftung" is void due to breaching privacy laws and that it was impossible to tell who did this since several people use that particular internet connection. That lawyer also claims, that he gets all his clients out of it with this method - I assume, that filesharing lawyers just won't go through the trouble of challenging german privacy laws. If you happen to need the addresses of either lawyer, let me know and I'll look it up. HTH Julian On 02/04/2013 01:33 PM, Hendrik Neumann wrote: > Hey guys, > > have been lurking here for a while, but now I need some advice on how > to handle this special situation: > > I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or > so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany > accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are > some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it > must have been a user from the TOR network. > > Now they want me to pay €1. (which I don't have due to recent > health problems and unemployment) and sign some papers. I'm not going > to do that. Even if it turns out to be more expensive, I'm looking for > legal advice now. So if you do happen to know a lawyer in Germany, who > knows about Torrents, TOR etc., please let me know! > > Also, I'd love to hear about similar experiences and how you dealt > with the issue. > ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Small update: I've snail-mailed them a letter based on what Moritz had posted. They replied with a standardized letter without even commenting on my statements. It's basically saying "Last chance to pay or we'll go to court." So I'm a little unsure whether or not it's now time to actually consult a lawyer or wait until FOX makes it's next move. Cheers, Hendrik -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Hendrik Neumann | tel: +49 (0)221 677 83 218 | web: http://armselig.me/ | blog: http://h4rk.net/ | twitter: http://twitter.com/armselig ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
I've forgotten the specifics of your OP. Exactly how much are they demanding (Eu / $US)? Other BIG factor (others familiar w/ European / German laws can comment): Do they have any SUBSTANTIAL proof, that a judge / jury would accept as reasonable proof, that YOU did something under your country's laws, to make you financially liable to the plaintiffs (for anywhere near what they're demanding)? And is the amount enough to make it worth the lawyers' time to go to court (how much would the LAWYERS make on a per hr basis, from their cut of the awarded amount)? I'm no expert on legalities in other countries, but ONLY as a general rule, in U.S., it's not worth a law firm's time to actually go to court over fairly small amts, if working for % of awarded judgment. In U.S., I've failed several times to get lawyers to take my cases against others on CONTINGENCY, even when I'd likely win, because - as numerous lawyers put it, "There simply isn't enough $ involved." If a law firm is working on a per hour basis (which I'd doubt for this type action), then lawyers get paid for time spent, but plaintiffs may well owe more than they are awarded. Most plaintiffs aren't that stupid. On 2/11/2013 7:11 AM, Hendrik Neumann wrote: Small update: I've snail-mailed them a letter based on what Moritz had posted. They replied with a standardized letter without even commenting on my statements. It's basically saying "Last chance to pay or we'll go to court." So I'm a little unsure whether or not it's now time to actually consult a lawyer or wait until FOX makes it's next move. Cheers, Hendrik ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Hey Joe, thanks for sharing! They're demanding €450 compensation for the alleged sharing of the movie via BitTorrent. Plus €506 lawyer's fees. So in total we're talking about €956,- FOX is working with a German company, ipoque GmbH, that monitors filesharing platforms. So they've logged my IP (the exit node), the time stamp, the hash of the file in question and got a court order that forced my ISP to handover my personal data to them. Cheers, Hendrik On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: > I've forgotten the specifics of your OP. Exactly how much are they > demanding (Eu / $US)? > > Other BIG factor (others familiar w/ European / German laws can comment): > Do they have any SUBSTANTIAL proof, that a judge / jury would accept as > reasonable proof, that YOU did something under your country's laws, to make > you financially liable to the plaintiffs (for anywhere near what they're > demanding)? And is the amount enough to make it worth the lawyers' time to > go to court (how much would the LAWYERS make on a per hr basis, from their > cut of the awarded amount)? > > I'm no expert on legalities in other countries, but ONLY as a general rule, > in U.S., it's not worth a law firm's time to actually go to court over > fairly small amts, if working for % of awarded judgment. > In U.S., I've failed several times to get lawyers to take my cases against > others on CONTINGENCY, even when I'd likely win, because - as numerous > lawyers put it, "There simply isn't enough $ involved." > > If a law firm is working on a per hour basis (which I'd doubt for this type > action), then lawyers get paid for time spent, but plaintiffs may well owe > more than they are awarded. Most plaintiffs aren't that stupid. > > > > On 2/11/2013 7:11 AM, Hendrik Neumann wrote: >> >> Small update: >> >> I've snail-mailed them a letter based on what Moritz had posted. They >> replied with a standardized letter without even commenting on my >> statements. It's basically saying "Last chance to pay or we'll go to >> court." >> >> So I'm a little unsure whether or not it's now time to actually >> consult a lawyer or wait until FOX makes it's next move. >> >> Cheers, >> Hendrik >> >> >> > > ___ > tor-talk mailing list > tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Hendrik Neumann | tel: +49 (0)221 677 83 218 | web: http://armselig.me/ | blog: http://h4rk.net/ | twitter: http://twitter.com/armselig ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
If they are going to answer your mail with a proforma reply, just resend it. Recorded delivery is a good idea too. And contact your local Piratpartei. Simon On Monday, February 4, 2013, Hendrik Neumann wrote: > Hey guys, > > have been lurking here for a while, but now I need some advice on how > to handle this special situation: > > I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or > so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany > accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are > some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it > must have been a user from the TOR network. > > Now they want me to pay €1. (which I don't have due to recent > health problems and unemployment) and sign some papers. I'm not going > to do that. Even if it turns out to be more expensive, I'm looking for > legal advice now. So if you do happen to know a lawyer in Germany, who > knows about Torrents, TOR etc., please let me know! > > Also, I'd love to hear about similar experiences and how you dealt > with the issue. > > -- > Mit freundlichen Grüßen, > Hendrik Neumann > > | tel: +49 (0)221 677 83 218 > | web: http://armselig.me/ > | blog: http://h4rk.net/ > | twitter: http://twitter.com/armselig > ___ > tor-talk mailing list > tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
On 2/11/2013 1:31 PM, Hendrik Neumann wrote: Hey Joe, thanks for sharing! They're demanding €450 compensation for the alleged sharing of the movie via BitTorrent. Plus €506 lawyer's fees. So in total we're talking about €956,- FOX is working with a German company, ipoque GmbH, that monitors filesharing platforms. So they've logged my IP (the exit node), the time stamp, the hash of the file in question and got a court order that forced my ISP to handover my personal data to them. Cheers, Hendrik On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: I've forgotten the specifics of your OP. Exactly how much are they demanding (Eu / $US)? Hendrik, There are people associated with Tor / very knowledgeable about problems of exit relays & to some extent, laws in certain countries. If you haven't gotten in touch w/ them, I suggest doing so. But Simon is correct - send any correspondence to the via certified, return receipt mail (U.S. postal terms, for mail w/ a record of sending & record of recipient's signature for receipt). They also tend to know "you're serious" when the letter is sent certified, return receipt. In many US cities, there are free legal services / advice on civil matters, available once or twice / mo, depending on the city. I have OFTEN talked my way into getting a few min of free time for short consultation w/ lawyers, by just calling their office. Sometimes, I've paid a small amount for 30 min consultation (that often ran over 30 min, but wasn't charged any more). (please seek others experiences on this same matter in your country; or legal advice - if you feel the need. I know NOTHING about German law, but I know a great deal about U.S. / my state's laws) Do what you wish w/ my writing here - or nothing at all. You may be able to take some of it, adapt it to LOCAL laws, plus info from Tor Project's "form letters" & then compose a very convincing letter. Or write a draft letter, then have a lawyer revise it. That would probably cost much less than walking into a lawyer's office w/ absolutely nothing for him to start with. When my spouse sued an employer, she had a "free" lawyer, board certified in Employment Law, through a type of "Union." I drafted and / or edited / amended many of the letters that went back / forth during the long grievance process, which the lawyer sometimes revised (sometimes sent as I'd written them). Many times, I pointed out things he failed to include in the letters and final settlement agreement, that he conceded were good ideas. My take is they are acting more like a bill collection agency (in the US), hoping to scare people into paying up. They likely know from experience, some will pay out of fear. Some won't - but it costs very little to send threatening letters. If it's that kind of a fishing expedition, my experience is once they find out a person is aware of the legalities of a situation, they back off. It's not uncommon for them to offer a "reduced settlement" amount, as a last ditch effort to get something. A lot of people then jump at that, to get them off their backs. One thing I can say w/ certainty - 506 Euros is probably NO where near enough for an attorney to agree to actually go to court. Which is exactly what they'd have to do, to get money, if you refuse to voluntarily pay. In the US, NO, NO, NO lawyer would agree to actually take a case to court for ~ $679 US. For that amount, ALL they will do is write some letters. To take a case to court, they'd require $2000 US - probably more - from their client, unless they were taking it on contingency & TRULY believed they could win a judgement of many thousands. Then, in U.S., they would get (by contract) 33 - 40% of the judgement. What's 40% of 450 Euro? Believe me, I've tried to get lawyers to take cases on contingency, but none were interested because they said either there wasn't enough $ that would be awarded (even if we won) and / or they weren't confident that the case could be won, based on laws & circumstances. Unless I was willing to pay a hefty, non refundable retainer ($2000 - $5000 US), they said "no way" on cases that didn't involve 10's of 1000's of $. BUT... it depends on laws in YOUR jurisdiction. _Is it *ILLEGAL* to RUN a Tor exit relay in (Germany?)??_ That's 1st & foremost. Legally, what would be the difference (or liability, if any existed) in running an exit vs. entry or middle relay? If anyone, anywhere (democratic society) were to d/l copy righted material through a mainstream, commercial ISP, would the copy right owner sue the ISP (or be able to), because the file was downloaded through their server? I doubt it. I personally never heard of such a case. The ISP may warn or even terminate the user's service if they are notified about d/l copy righted material, but they're never sued (AFAIK). Yet, copy righted material is downloaded 24 / 7 / 365 through mainstream ISPs. They MIGHT ev
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it must have been a user from the TOR network. Hi Hendrik, Have a look at this article from Thursday's New York Times: www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/business/global/europol-takes-down-cybercrime-gang-in-spain.html and particularly the last para: "While the virus generally came with a police warning, the gang is believed to have used different versions to deceive more users, including one fraudulent message that was designed to look as if it had been sent by the Spanish association that defends artists’ copyrights." I would give some thought to the possibility that there is another criminal gang behind your letter, pretending to be Fox in order to get your money. This kind of scareware seems to have appeared only in the last year or two. * Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I have any direct experience of this kind of scam. Do not rely on my advice in a court of law! * Having said that, several aspects of this do seem very suspect to me. First, the vagueness of the initial accusation. They could send an identical message to any IP address with substantial steady upload traffic. You write on 11/02/13 19:31 that: > >FOX is working with a German company, ipoque GmbH, that monitors >filesharing platforms. So they've logged my IP (the exit node), the >time stamp, the hash of the file in question and got a court order >that forced my ISP to handover my personal data to them. > Do you have independent confirmation of this, or does it come only from the "Fox" letter? For what it's worth, a Google search on 'ipoque GmbH 21st Century Fox' with time set to 'past year' gives no results at all. So if it's a media industry initiative, it's not a well publicised one! And ipoque GmbH are well known for Deep Packet Inspection, so if I were concocting a scareware letter, they are the company I'd name. You might consider contacting ipoque GmbH; you could say you suspect their name is being used in a scareware extortion scam. That should get their attention. If they're not actually working with Fox, you can relax (and call the police); if they are, that still doesn't necessarily mean your particular letter is genuine. Have "Fox" actually given you the time stamp and hash, or simply told you that they have them? Even if they have given you numbers, they may simply be invented; they know that you have no way of checking whether the "torrenting" actually happened or not. If it is genuine, the court order at least must be on public record somewhere. If the letter they sent you does not give details of this court order (enough for you - or potentially, your lawyers - to be able to verify it for yourself), be very suspicious. It's almost certainly a scam, like all those emails "from the Bank" that start "Dear Customer" instead of using your name. Now they want me to pay €1. (which I don't have due to recent health problems and unemployment) and sign some papers. Second, this immediate demand for money. In my experience, real lawyers work much more slowly than this (after all, they can charge for every letter they write). First one or two demands that you stop what you're doing, then a threat of eventual legal action, and so on. If they want to build a case against you that will stand up in court, they would usually have to show that you were given fair warning, and then wilfully and knowingly persisted in your evil-doing for a substantial time. ** Repeat disclaimer: I am not a lawyer! This is only my gut-feeling as an interested bystander. *** Was the demand for money in the very first communication you received from "Fox"? If it was, it looks very much like a scam artfully designed to bounce you into sending the money without thinking, especially if they gave you a tight deadline and threatened drastic consequences on non-payment. What was their suggested payment method? A payment into an account verifiably owned by the real Fox? Or something more gang-friendly? All in all, if it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Or a scam. Don't be fooled by impressive letterheads and so on, they're really easy to forge. From the article: “It used the idiom and logo of each specific police service,” [Mr Wainwright] said. “Even Europol and my own name have been used to defraud citizens.” Don't give too much weight to the fact that t
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
On 2/16/2013 6:44 AM, Nick Sheppard wrote: On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it must have been a user from the TOR network. Hi Hendrik, Second, this immediate demand for money. In my experience, real lawyers work much more slowly than this (after all, they can charge for every letter they write). First one or two demands that you stop what you're doing, then a threat of eventual legal action, and so on. If they want to build a case against you that will stand up in court, they would usually have to show that you were given fair warning, and then wilfully and knowingly persisted in your evil-doing for a substantial time. Nick, you could be right about a scam - at least warrants some consideration. But in many countries, if one breaks an actual LAW, there's no *requirement* for anyone to give the accused any "warning" or Cease & Desist Letter, before filing civil or criminal charges. In civil law issues, they MIGHT give a warning (like to take down copyrighted material from a website), but they certainly wouldn't be required to, if they can prove you broke laws & if the damages allowed by local law / courts for a given offense, make it worthwhile to file a law suit. If it's legit, they either have enough evidence or they don't. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
On 16/02/13 15:04, Joe Btfsplk wrote: On 2/16/2013 6:44 AM, Nick Sheppard wrote: On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it must have been a user from the TOR network. Hi Hendrik, Second, this immediate demand for money. In my experience, real lawyers work much more slowly than this (after all, they can charge for every letter they write). First one or two demands that you stop what you're doing, then a threat of eventual legal action, and so on. If they want to build a case against you that will stand up in court, they would usually have to show that you were given fair warning, and then wilfully and knowingly persisted in your evil-doing for a substantial time. Nick, you could be right about a scam - at least warrants some consideration. But in many countries, if one breaks an actual LAW, there's no *requirement* for anyone to give the accused any "warning" or Cease & Desist Letter, before filing civil or criminal charges. In civil law issues, they MIGHT give a warning (like to take down copyrighted material from a website), but they certainly wouldn't be required to, if they can prove you broke laws & if the damages allowed by local law / courts for a given offense, make it worthwhile to file a law suit. If it's legit, they either have enough evidence or they don't. Hi Joe, Of course you're right, and I could easily be making the wrong assumptions about the regulatory regime where Hendrik is. * Repeat disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. Don't rely on me in court! * At this distance from the facts, all I can really do is point out possibilities, suggest lines of enquiry, and offer encouragement. There has been one interesting development. The Google search for 'ipoque GmbH 21st Century Fox' (time set to 'past year') that gave no results yesterday now gives four hits. One is my own post. The others are in German and do seem relevant: http://anwaltstipps.recht-gehabt.de/markenrecht-urheberrecht/abmahnung-prometheus-dunkle-zeichen.php seems to be describing Hendrik's situation exactly - so it MAY be genuine; and the other (duplicated) hit is: http://www.abmahnung-urheberrechtsverletzung.de/News/Waldorf_Frommer_Abmahnung_Twentieth_Century_Fox_The_Sessions_-_Wenn_Worte_beruehren which (I think) offers advice about the same situation. I'm relying on very rusty school German and Google Translate, which is not a lot of help! I certainly can't judge whether those sites are genuine. I have no idea why these two didn't show up in my search yesterday - I was searching in all languages. Maybe Google's search engines were prompted by that to cast their net a little wider? Any use, Hendrik? Nick Sheppard ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
On 2/17/2013 9:38 AM, Nick Sheppard wrote: On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it must have been a user from the TOR network. Hi Joe, Of course you're right, and I could easily be making the wrong assumptions about the regulatory regime where Hendrik is. * Repeat disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. Don't rely on me in court! * At this distance from the facts, all I can really do is point out possibilities, suggest lines of enquiry, and offer encouragement. There has been one interesting development. The Google search for 'ipoque GmbH 21st Century Fox' (time set to 'past year') that gave no results yesterday now gives four hits. One is my own post. The others are in German and do seem relevant: http://anwaltstipps.recht-gehabt.de/markenrecht-urheberrecht/abmahnung-prometheus-dunkle-zeichen.php seems to be describing Hendrik's situation exactly - so it MAY be genuine; and the other (duplicated) hit is: http://www.abmahnung-urheberrechtsverletzung.de/News/Waldorf_Frommer_Abmahnung_Twentieth_Century_Fox_The_Sessions_-_Wenn_Worte_beruehren which (I think) offers advice about the same situation. I'm relying on very rusty school German and Google Translate, which is not a lot of help! I certainly can't judge whether those sites are genuine. I have no idea why these two didn't show up in my search yesterday - I was searching in all languages. Maybe Google's search engines were prompted by that to cast their net a little wider? Any use, Hendrik? Nick Sheppard Thanks Nick. I "translated" the 1st page you linked. It's a bit rough, but the main theme seems to reference downloading, P2P sharing, etc., of the file(s) and possibly ? hosting the file for d/l. A Tor relay does none of those things, unless Hendrik also did some d/l'g from the same Tor IP. Assuming he did NOT: The lawyers may / may not know how a Tor relay works. They may not care. They may just cast as wide a net as possible & see what they can haul in. They likely don't care if persons are actually guilty, as long as they make money. They know / hope a certain # of people will pay out of fear / ignorance or because they actually d/l a copy righted movie / game. Lawyers regularly try to get money out of persons having no legal liability to pay anything. The lawyers are either ignorant how a Tor relay works or just on a fishing expedition. They may / may not know Hendrick hosts some torrents & figure he had a hand in torrenting this movie. Again, they probably don't care if he's guilty of anything, as long as he pays. If I were to run an exit relay (which I probably wouldn't - for this type reason - until things change), I would not host torrents on the same server, even though they may not be copy righted. It could create appearance you're also in both the torrent hosting & Tor relay business. If Hendrik hasn't left any details out (intentionally or not), he doesn't seem to fit into the type persons they're targeting (based on the translated web page). He didn't share the file, didn't d/l it, didn't host it. I would put those details & some other facts / explanations, I mentioned in earlier post (or have a lawyer do it) & send a certified, return receipt letter to them. I'm guessing in Germany, they have the burden of proving he ACTUALLY did something illegal. Other than explaining the facts, as a good faith act, he doesn't have the burden of proving he's innocent (AFAIK). Certainly not in response to what's basically a form letter. Unless in Germany, you're responsible for anything someone d/l's through your server. But then, as I said, the ISPs would quickly go bankrupt. Unless they have "special immunity" from such liability. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Off topic, except to as possible defences... Have any of these entities suing people ever produced actual blocks downloaded by the entity from a peer? As far as I know all the cases they've tried have been with 'making available' client screengrabs and tracker scrapes. What's to say you didn't fakeup a client to make available urandom/zero/null under some recent boyband album infohash? Would like to run such a client btw ;) ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
On 2/17/2013 11:40 AM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it must have been a user from the TOR network. Let us know how your legal problems are going, if they're resolved & what actions you finally took. ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de
Hey guys, it's been a while since my last mail, but I had decided to keep it low and not post anything public on the subject. Several months have passed since the last mail from FOX's lawyers and I've heard nothing from them since then. Therefore I've come to the conclusion that they dropped the case because of the statement I sent that Moritz had prepared. Special thanks for that! My exit relay is back up and pumping the GBs. Thank you very much for your support and input! Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With kind regards, Hendrik Neumann -- | Web: http://armselig.me/ | Blog; http://h4rk.net/ | Twitter: https://twitter.com/armselig | LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hneumann | XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Hendrik_Neumann23 On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: > On 2/17/2013 11:40 AM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: >> >> On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote: >> I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or >> so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany >> accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are >> some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it >> must have been a user from the TOR network. > > > Let us know how your legal problems are going, if they're resolved & what > actions you finally took. > > > > ___ > tor-talk mailing list > tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ___ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
