Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
The office was closed today because of the midwest blizzard which gave me some time to play. I decided to haul up a couple of Polk LSi 9's from the basement HT to see how the Touch would work as a preamp directly into an Emotiva XPA-2. It worked very well. The Polks are rated at 88db sensitivity and a volume of 65 or so was a comfortable listening level with most material. The Magnepan's I have on order are a few db less sensitive. If I decide the preamp I've ordered doesn't improve on the Touch I'd probably put in some in-line attenuator's to keep the touch volume control in the 85-90 range. Anyway, the Touch does work just fine as a preamp. -- mraub1 mraub1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43441 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
At least compare with Touch :-/ Tube magic *shiver* . Directly driving the power amp possibly via good attenuators such as endlers. But looking at the specs I see that it has an analog input ! very good and the tube out can be bypassed too as it has an normal output, very very good. So you can hook up the Touch both ways analog and digital and compare, note that output level is probably different so you have to adjust volume to make sure you compare at the same level. It takes a good DAC to beat Touch a very good DAC some say ? Getting a preamp can be a good move in itself , but is that one up to the same level as your nice looking power amp. Well you have to try and see what you get :) If on a really tigth budget I would look for a passive preamp as an option -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) PLEASE FIX BUG 112 http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112 Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
I'd have gone for a Transporter, using the balanced outputs to feed the Emotiva XPA-2. -- amcluesent amcluesent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10286 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
Thanks for all the advice. I finally decided on this DAC/Pre-amp: http://www.mav-audio.com/base/product/tube_magic_d1 It gives choice of tube or solid state output. I has no remote but is small enough that I can just set it under the the Touch. Best of it costs less than $250 shipped to the US. It has received very favorable reviews. -- mraub1 mraub1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43441 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
mraub1;605443 Wrote: I'm new to digital audio, so pardon if this question sounds asinine. I'm assembling a 2-channel music system. A pair of Magnepan 1.7's are on order and I've purchased an Emotiva XPA-2 (500 w/ch @ 4 ohms--the Maggies are massively power hungry). By all accounts on this board and others, the Touch's DAC is decent enough that most people can't distinguish its output from a much more expensive dedicated DAC. Since the Touch has a volume control I can't I need any additional gear for a decent hifi system. What I can't determine is whether the analog Touch outputs will drive the amp hard enough for use with very inefficient speakers like the Magnepan's. The book that came with the touch had no specification of the maximum voltage the Touch can output from the analog jacks. Is driving the XPA-2 with the Touch's analog outputs going to work? Emotiva also sells a relatively inexpensive digital pre-amp, but I can't see buying if I don't need it. Thanks for any advice. I wouldn't advise you to use Touch as an attenuator. It is much more important to ensure that the digital volume level on the Touch stays absolutely fixed at 100% (apply Soundcheck's mod, which you can find on another thread in this forum). I'm using Touch as a digital source to drive a pair of Magnepan speakers, and only if I disable the digital attenuation on the Touch do I get that much sought after high-end sound quality that is at the same time decidedly no 'hi fi' like. In other words, neutrality, truth in music presentation, production instead of re-production, and a complete absence of editorializing during the playback. But for that, you'll have to go with a highly refined DAC. The one inside the Touch is definitely not up to the task. In all seriousness, plan on doing all this because your Maggies deserve it. As you probably know already, Maggies don't lie, and they will mercilessly reveal sub-standard components in your chain. As it stands today, fully modded Touch (via Soundcheck's mods) is a formidable digital transport that can stand shoulder to shoulder with many high end digital transports. This incredible digital transport needs to be paired with a high quality DAC. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
mraub1;605443 Wrote: I'm new to digital audio, so pardon if this question sounds asinine. By all accounts on this board and others, the Touch's DAC is decent enough that most people can't distinguish its output from a much more expensive dedicated DAC. No, I don't think that's generally agreed on. I think it is generally agreed the the output of the Touch is comparable to that of modestly priced DACs. Some users think it equals the sound of more expensive DAC's. I have a decidedly mid-range DAC (MF-X-DACV3), for example, that I think significantly improves the sound coming from the Touch. Since the Touch has a volume control I can't I need any additional gear for a decent hifi system. What I can't determine is whether the analog Touch outputs will drive the amp hard enough for use with very inefficient speakers like the Magnepan's. The book that came with the touch had no specification of the maximum voltage the Touch can output from the analog jacks. Is driving the XPA-2 with the Touch's analog outputs going to work? Emotiva also sells a relatively inexpensive digital pre-amp, but I can't see buying if I don't need it. Thanks for any advice. The Touch has line-outs. Not the same as a pre-out. I think it's designed to be an input to a preamp line-in. I think you could have issues driving a power amp directly - among them the danger of blowing out your speakers. -- firedog Tranquil PC fanless WHS server running SqueezeServer; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF V DAC3, MF X-150 amp, Devore Gibbon Super 8 Speakers; Dual 506 + Ortofon 20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player. firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
firedog;605517 Wrote: The Touch has line-outs. Not the same as a pre-out. I think it's designed to be an input to a preamp line-in. I think you could have issues driving a power amp directly - among them the danger of blowing out your speakers. How so? Line out with a volume control is exactly what a pre-amp provides. The Touch maintains the last volume setting when turned off. I'm more concerned it won't provide a high enough output to drive the amp. In the past I've used a CD player with variable outputs to drive a power amp and am hoping to do the same with the Touch. -- mraub1 mraub1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43441 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
If you want to use the Touch's analog out to feed an audiophile setup, you may be interested in reading 'this thread' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83412). Whether it will feed your amp too quietly (or too loudly) I can't answer. Depends on your amp, I suppose. -- Soulkeeper -that is not dead which can eternal lie. and with strange aeons even death may die.- touch + duet + boom + radio / wrt160n/dd-wrt / sbs 7.5.1 or higher/win7(32b)/avira free Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
Our wiki has some great info. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connecting_directly_to_a_power_amplifier http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/DIY_passive_attenuation http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Digital_Volume_Control_and_SNR Touch uses an 24bit digital volume. The thing is that you should use passive attenuators before the amp so that you use the Touch at decent levels or if you have a power amp where you can adjust input sensitivity. You should try to make it so that 100% volume on the Touch is as loud as you wanna go but -not- louder, you should be able to use that volume that means that ~70% is normal level . You don't want level mismatch so that you use volume at 10-20 ,. The SNR of the Touch would not be fabulous there. Touch outputs circa 2V rms , so it should be able to drive most power amps. Read you power amps manual regarding input sensitivity. Also the attenuators would protect you if you by mistake play at very high volume or a bug put's the volume to 100% . The player could have other bugs too outputting strange noises or something, but I've never heard of one with the Touch . The old ip3k players has a rare bug when they can output very loud noise that sounds horrible, but that bug is very rare. I use these attenuators, they damp -10dB if thats to much consider DIY . These thing are 2 resistor so they don't affect sound quality at all . http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html Other people wants adjustable attenuators for example endlers . This is a more flexible solution. But can cost more as you want a good quality switch in theese (so it does not corrode and cause contact problems ) I have not tied the endlesrs but they come higly recomended by other here on the forum . http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4c5pt/ -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) PLEASE FIX BUG 112 http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112 Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
WARNING: It is important to be very careful and follow proper setup when determining if it is possible to use only a Touch (or any other Squeezebox) as a pre-amp to directly drive an amplifier. It is important that before the amp is turned on that the Touch (or other Squeezebox) is verified to be at its minimum digital volume setting and that 100% output option is disabled. The thing to do is try it. My son and now several of his friends are using a Touch, Adcom GFA-555SE, and a pair of Vandersteen Model 2 Signature II speakers and are enjoying the minimalist setup immensely. Soulkeeper is correct that the Touch might not have enough gain to drive the amp loud enough or it could have to much. So again the only way to find out is by trying it. If it has to much gain then the simple thing to do is add inline attenuators (this is also required to be safe for the speakers if the Touch IS able to over drive the amp). I prefer fixed attenuators by finding out where the limit is as this will always keep ones ears and speakers safe. If it doesn't get loud enough for you, then its time for a pre-amp with a healthy gain stage to drive the amp. Line level RCA outs are normally enough to drive an amp above the safe level of most speakers, but all amps don't have the same amount of gain. As an example, my Class A amp is fine with any Squeezebox or Transporter driving it and the speakers are safe as it never gets louder then I can stand listening even at full output from the Transporter. Where as I HAVE to have attenuators if I drive my Cinepro directly with a Squeezebox. Again be careful when testing. Do things one thing at a time. And double check the setup before applying power to the amps. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
Thanks for the great advice. Does anyone know how many volts the Touch puts out at 100% volume? I can't find that specification anywhere. -- mraub1 mraub1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43441 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
mraub1;605703 Wrote: Thanks for the great advice. Does anyone know how many volts the Touch puts out at 100% volume? I can't find that specification anywhere. I Googled and found this: http://www.stereophile.com/content/logitech-squeezebox-touch-network-music-player-measurements -Measured at its RCA output jacks, the Squeezebox Touch's maximum output level at 1kHz was 2.06V, which meets the CD standard.- -- Henry66 Henry66's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
[SlimDevices: Touch] Touch As Pre-amp
I'm new to digital audio, so pardon if this question sounds asinine. I'm assembling a 2-channel music system. A pair of Magnepan 1.7's are on order and I've purchased an Emotiva XPA-2 (500 w/ch @ 4 ohms--the Maggies are massively power hungry). By all accounts on this board and others, the Touch's DAC is decent enough that most people can't distinguish its output from a much more expensive dedicated DAC. Since the Touch has a volume control I can't I need any additional gear for a decent hifi system. What I can't determine is whether the analog Touch outputs will drive the amp hard enough for use with very inefficient speakers like the Magnepan's. The book that came with the touch had no specification of the maximum voltage the Touch can output from the analog jacks. Is driving the XPA-2 with the Touch's analog outputs going to work? Emotiva also sells a relatively inexpensive digital pre-amp, but I can't see buying if I don't need it. Thanks for any advice. -- mraub1 mraub1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43441 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85096 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
