Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
pgeorges wrote: > Could you precise why tinyLMS should be avoided so much ? I use it with > USB keys or SD cards of 32 GB and it seems CPU use of tinyLMS is low on > the SBT. Toby10 lays out the reasons very well. And as he notes, your use with just a few USB keys or SD cards with not too many files is probably the optimum situation for using the tinyLMS. And my brother has a USB drive plugged in with about 50,000 mp3 files and this works very well for him. But he never adds files, never edits tags, never unplugs the USB drive, uses no plugins, and controls the touch with the IR remote. That is, he is a very "basic" user. For him, TinyLMS is perfect. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
For small libraries the Touch's USB/SD is fine. But there are numerous issues with using this vs the full LMS server on a computer. - Touch must rescan entire contents on every device swap or Touch power up - while scanning Touch can become sluggish (sometimes not even usable) until scan completes - larger USB drives must be self powered - far less configurable & customizable - no transcoding - no web UI - no plugins - USB/SD compatibility issues - etc... Such limitations may or may not not affect your use of the Touch's server. toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
garym wrote: > And you should really avoid the tinyLMS option if at all possible. > Could you precise why tinyLMS should be avoided so much ? I use it with USB keys or SD cards of 32 GB and it seems CPU use of tinyLMS is low on the SBT. pgeorges's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56903 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
Too many questions here to reply to each separately. When using one of the software players on a computer on your network (hardwired or wifi) it connects to the server just like any other SB player. IF you are using the tinyLMS on the Touch it can actually serve music to a software player on a laptop, but just beware of the limitations. LMS on a real computer can handle many players at once. In my house we actually use all three of the software players mentioned. My wife has an older SB3 in her sewing room so she likes to use SoftSqueeze on here laptop since the interface is the same as the SB3. I use the Touch in a couple lacations in the House so I use SqueezePlay on my laptop which gives the same display as the Touch. The computer is the office has both SoftSqueeze and SqueezePlay, my wife uses SoftSqueeze when she is in there and I use SqueezePlay whenI am in there. I also have SqueezeSlave running on al old fanless EPIA board running linux connected to a USB DAC in one of the rooms. (I generally use an Android app to control this system) Aaack! my computer just went crazy, I need to send this before I shut it down, I'll respond more later. John S. JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
Jumping in on some questions you asked me, and more that you asked John S: jeromeharris wrote: > Does MySqueezebox.com allow players to receive music from a local > server's storage, as well as from Internet sources? Not that I foresee > my wanting to do that... No, mysb.com doesn't see your local storage at all. jeromeharris wrote: > For that, the laptop must have some server software like LMS running on > it, or be able to access a "server in the cloud", right? Just testing my > understanding here. BTW, could you list names of some of these software > players, so I can look them up, out of curiosity? (Hmm: now that I think > about it, iTunes and Windows Media Player--which also include server > functions-- are in this category, right? Do any of the others have > notable pluses or minuses over the player in the SBT? iTunes and WMP don't playback music from LMS, or at least not very conveniently. The Squeezebox software players are SqueezePlay, SoftSqueeze, and squeezeslave. Squeezeplay has the same interface as the SBT, and can be used to control the SBT (or any SB) and/or turn your pc into a SB. It is perpetual-beta software freely available from http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/. SoftSqueeze is Java-based software that has the look of "virtual" older SB devices (SB Classic, Transporter, Boom), but the functionality is more or less the same as SqueezePlay when it comes to playing streams on your pc. squeezeslave is a "headless" software player, ie, it has no GUI, but can be controlled by the LMS web ui or other remote devices like iPeng, Squeezepad, etc. jeromeharris wrote: > Hmm...do you know if there exists an alarm-clock app for the SBT? If so, > that could be a nifty use for a second SBT, as part of a small "zoned > music" setup. The SBT has a built-in alarm function. Very customizable in terms of multiple alarms, streams to play, days of week, etc. jeromeharris wrote: > > -- Does the LMS software have to re-scan the library drive when the > server wakes up (assuming no files on it have been changed, added or > deleted)?; > > -- Would a dedicated server computer (I'm currently favoring a fit-PC, > or perhaps a SheevaPlug) be less picky about what type of hard drive is > plugged into it than the SBT is? If so, that clinches the value of going > that route. I've tested several USB hard drives and thumb drives with my > Touch; so far, some hard drives are recognized and work, but some don't > (none of my thumb drives work); > > -- If I choose to use a dedicated server computer, are there advantages > or disadvantages to using a USB hard drive versus an NAS hard drive with > it?; > > -- Re adding newly purchased files and ripping new CDs to a library > drive, is there any particular reason to have the ripping and tagging > software running on the dedicated server computer, versus doing those > jobs on another machine and copying the folders and files to the library > drive (either over the network, or plugging the library drive into the > other computer)? Doing it on the server would require connecting an > optical drive, monitor and keyboard to it for ripping/tagging--its > location might make that inconvenient. -- no -- yes (ie, a pc is less picky than the Touch) -- Only minor. For example, having the library on a NAS but LMS on your pc means that scanning will be slower because it's being done over the network. A USB-drive or internal drive on your pc would be quicker for scanning, but there is no practical difference when it comes to playback. -- nope, no advantages to ripping and tagging on a server computer. I've never had an optical drive on my server computers/NASs -- I just copy over the network. aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
Welcome to the Squeezebox world! As an alternative to running Ethernet cables through the house, I've had excellent results with a D-Link Extreme N Duo Wireless Access Point Bridge into which I plugged the Touch via a short run of Ethernet cable. No drop offs or rebuffering. Plus you can also plug other devices into this gizmo. Maybe worth a try in your setup. Guido F. guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
And I rip and tag with dbpoweramp on a windows laptop and then move files over my network to my dedicated music server ( a vortexbox appliance). Also, a FitPC is head and shoulders above a sheevaplug in terms of performance (thus its higher price). But if you don't need small size or silent computer you can go with any old cheap computer. Remember, the server does not need to be anywhere near your listening room. That's one of the key advantages of the SB/LMS system. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
A quick one: essentially any USB drive can work connected to a computer running LMS. It is only when connecting to the touch itself to use tinyLMS that you have to be picky because of potential drive issues. And you should really avoid the tinyLMS option if at all possible. P.s. power line ethernet option can work very well. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
JohnSwenson wrote: > You asked for it! Indeed, and you delivered big time! Very helpful infomation--thanks so much. I have a few questions (please pardon my lack of knowledge)... JohnSwenson wrote: > MySqueezeBox.com is implemented by big server computers located in > various locations around the world implementing MANY MANY instances of s > special server. This server serves two primary purposes, it allows > players to receive music when you don't have a local LMS server (or > it's turned off) and it is the gateway to internet based "music > services" (Pandora, Rhapsody etc) Does MySqueezebox.com allow players to receive music from a local server's storage, as well as from Internet sources? Not that I foresee my wanting to do that... JohnSwenson wrote: > There are several software players, so you can listen to the music on > your laptop etc. For that, the laptop must have some server software like LMS running on it, or be able to access a "server in the cloud", right? Just testing my understanding here. BTW, could you list names of some of these software players, so I can look them up, out of curiosity? (Hmm: now that I think about it, iTunes and Windows Media Player--which also include server functions-- are in this category, right? Do any of the others have notable pluses or minuses over the player in the SBT? JohnSwenson wrote: > The parts in the hardware devices are not dedicated to each other, > although they usually work that way. For example you can use the > controller in the Touch to control the player in another SB and use your > phone to control the player in the Touch. You can have the Player in > the Touch connected to MySqueezeBox.com while the server in the Touch > is sending music to a software player on a laptop. Hmm...do you know if there exists an alarm-clock app for the SBT? If so, that could be a nifty use for a second SBT, as part of a small "zoned music" setup. JohnSwenson wrote: > It sounds like from your post you are NOT a person who would relish the > task of getting TinyLMS to do what you want. This is not to say it's > useless, some people manage to use it just fine, but others are > constantly fighting it. My impression here is that you would probably > be better off with a server on a separate computer. Yes, I'm not interested in fighting with TinyLMS--I'd rather spend a little money and have a more stable and robust setup--especially if doing so would confer certain other benefits (see questions below). JohnSwenson wrote: > You can use an already existing computer, but when that computer is > turned off, you can't get any music out of it. If a computer has WOL > (Wake On Lan) the server can be sleeping when not playing music and the > Touch can tell it to wake up when you want to listen to music. A couple of questions: -- Does the LMS software have to re-scan the library drive when the server wakes up (assuming no files on it have been changed, added or deleted)?; -- Would a dedicated server computer (I'm currently favoring a fit-PC, or perhaps a SheevaPlug) be less picky about what type of hard drive is plugged into it than the SBT is? If so, that clinches the value of going that route. I've tested several USB hard drives and thumb drives with my Touch; so far, some hard drives are recognized and work, but some don't (none of my thumb drives work); -- If I choose to use a dedicated server computer, are there advantages or disadvantages to using a USB hard drive versus an NAS hard drive with it?; -- Re adding newly purchased files and ripping new CDs to a library drive, is there any particular reason to have the ripping and tagging software running on the dedicated server computer, versus doing those jobs on another machine and copying the folders and files to the library drive (either over the network, or plugging the library drive into the other computer)? Doing it on the server would require connecting an optical drive, monitor and keyboard to it for ripping/tagging--its location might make that inconvenient. JohnSwenson wrote: > I hope you get the impression the SqueezeBox universe is rather flexible > I'll say! I had no idea. I'm glad to be entering this universe--it seemed like it could provide the highest sound quality for the lowest cost (having access to 24/192 files through Triode's EDO software was the factor that finally pulled me to buy an SBT), plus not having to shell out money for a complete system all at once is great, given my "artist-class" musician's cash flow. Thanks again for your very helpful information--much appreciated. Jerome jeromeharris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
aubuti wrote: > First, just because the wifi in your listening room is iffy doesn't mean > you have to go with the Touch's built-in server (I'll call it TinyLMS) > and a directly-attached USB drive. The TinyLMS+USB drive approach works > for some and fails for others, but overall it has to be the most > unreliable aspect of the whole SB system. That's been a notable concern for me; I've tried several USB drives plugged directly into my Touch (hard drives and thumb drives)--some work, some don't. When I buy a hard drive for my music library, I want to know that it will work (connected to my network; it would be nice if it also worked directly connected to the Touch, but I'm moving away from seeing that as a must-have). aubuti wrote: > Is there a way to run ethernet (cat5e or cat6) cable to your listening > room? If not, what about homeplug adapters, which carry wired network > traffic over your home's electrical wiring? Or adding a wifi access > point in or near the listening room? In the end, improving the > connectivity of your listening room to avoid dropouts is likely to be > more satisfying than using TinyLMS plus an external drive. That makes sense to me. I wish that I could easily run Ethernet cable into my listening room, but that would involve messing up parts of a recent kitchen renovation (had I only thought further ahead...sigh. Part of that renovation work worsened the WiFi connectivity in our living room area)--that's not feasible right now. I'll look into the Homeplug option; meanwhile, we moved an Airport Express box that we're using as a signal extender for that area; connectivity seems better (I must test it a bit more for audio use). aubuti wrote: > there is a paid subscription service on mysqueezebox.com called > MP3Tunes that allows you to upload your tracks (MP3 versions only) to an > online storage site, and then play them back from there. I probably won't bother with that-- for home listening, I don't want to convert anything to MP3 format and lose audio quality. aubuti wrote: > But usually mysqueezebox.com (or mysb.com for lazy typists like me) is > used for streaming from the internet: internet radio and services such > as Pandora, Slacker, Rhapsody, Spotify, MOG, Last.fm, and others. You > can also access all of those online services when your SB is connected > to LMS on your home network -- you only ever _need_ to connect > explicitly to mysb.com if you want to turn your local server off. Wow; that's useful to know--more incentive for properly understanding and implementing a stable instance of LMS on my system. aubuti wrote: > Btw, it probably also helps to know that slimserver, SqueezeCenter (SC), > Squeezebox Server (SBS), and Logitech Media Server (LMS) are all > different names for the same thing, namely the server software that runs > on a pc, NAS, or Touch (in a stripped-down version on the Touch). > Apparently when they get bored at Logitech they rename things fairly > indiscriminately. Hah! Thanks *very* much for that info--I had no idea! aubuti wrote: > As for the pluses and minuses of Vortexbox Appliance, squeezeplug, or > FitPC, my advice is that there is no hurry. Perhaps, but if using such a device would mean that I don't have to research and pick a specific brand and model of hard drive to know that the drive will work, I could go ahead and buy a drive and start ripping CDs; that would be a real plus (along with the benefits of running the full version of LMS on it). Is that the case--that a "host computer" like those mentioned would be drive-agnostic--less picky than the Touch? Also, if the FitPC-connected library drive is powered down or goes into sleep mode, does LMS have to re-scan it when the drive is re-powered or awakened (assuming no files have been added, deleted or edited)? That too would be a plus for me. aubuti wrote: > Presumably you have a computer at present. Can you run LMS on that? If > so, I would get started with that while you sort out more critical > issues such as the wifi in your listening room and ripping your CDs. > It's always easy to upgrade/change your LMS server hardware later. I have installed LMS on one of my laptops, as a test; my Touch found it, scanned its drive, and plays its music files with no problem. I'll soon try connecting a USB hard drive to it--one that my Touch couldn't recognize--and see if the Touch finds it and can access it. aubuti wrote: > Hope this helps at least a little. It sure does--much thanks. jeromeharris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
jeromeharris wrote: > Has anyone posted a function-oriented description of the various > hardware and software elements of the SBT--sort of a "system > architecture" portrait? You asked for it! I'll describe the architecture for the newer devices such as the SBT, it's slightly different for the older devices. The squeeze box system architecture consists of three logical parts: servers, players and controllers connected by a network. These do NOT have to be separate boxes. The server is the brains of the operation. Servers send audio data to players, the players can only play what they get sent by a server. There are two basic categories of server: local server (currently called LMS) and the server in the cloud: MySqueezeBox.com. LMS manages a collection of music files, it keeps a database of information about each of these files, name, artist, album, year etc. In most cases this information is stored in tags embedded in the files. (It can come from other sources, but thats another discussion). The server allows the user to search through this information in various ways to choose what music to listen to. After the user chooses a selection of files to listen to it reads the files and streams the audio data to one or more players over the network. There are several different stream formats supported, the user can choose which to use. LMS can also connect to music streams over the internet (internet radio) and stream this to the players. MySqueezeBox.com is implemented by big server computers located in various locations around the world implementing MANY MANY instances of s special server. This server serves two primary purposes, it allows players to receive music when you don't have a local LMS server (or it's turned off) and it is the gateway to internet based "music services" (Pandora, Rhapsody etc) The logical player is a black box, audio data comes in over the network and audio of some form comes out. Note there is NO user interface on this logical construct. The user interface exists in the controller entity. The controller is the user interface for the system. It talks to a SERVER, NOT a player. It tells the server to start sending audio to a specific player. It sends queries to the server (to find music by different criteria), displays the results and send the user's slection back to the server. Most of the servers actually contain a controller in the form of a web page as well These different logical parts of the system can come in different combinations in actual hardware. For example the Touch has all three. The Duet comes with a separte black box player and separate hand held controller. There are several software players, so you can listen to the music on your laptop etc. Some have controlers, some do not. There are controller programs that run on all kinds of computers, and controller apps for iPhones, iPads and android devices. You can also get player apps for these as well so you can plug a headphone into the phone and listen to the music as well as using it to control the hardware devices. The parts in the hardware devices are not dedicated to each other, although they usually work that way. For example you can use the controller in the Touch to control the player in another SB and use your phone to control the player in the Touch. You can have the Player in the Touch connected to MySqueezeBox.com while the server in the Touch is sending music to a software player on a laptop. It's an incredibly flexible system. The server in the Touch is "special", it's called TinyLMS, it's the same server but it has a lot of stuff turned off so it will fit in the small amount of memory in the Touch hardware. It's not exactly what you would call "rock solid, plug and play", it's trying to do a lot on very limited resources and if you are not careful it can become a very frustrating experience. It sounds like from your post you are NOT a person who would relish the task of getting TinyLMS to do what you want. This is not to say it's useless, some people manage to use it just fine, but others are constantly fighting it. My impression here is that you would probably be better off with a server on a separate computer. This does NOT have to be a full blown expensive computer, it can be a something like a SheevaPlug (which looks like a wall wart power supply, but is actually a computer) which costs $100. You plug your USB drive into it and plug the ethernet into the network or directly into the Touch. There are MANY choices for a server and how you can hookup a system. You can use an already existing computer, but when that computer is turned off, you can't get any music out of it. If a computer has WOL (Wake On Lan) the server can be sleeping when not playing music and the Touch can tell it to wake up when you want to listen to music. Many of us hard core SqueezBox users have dedicated music servers, because the music goes over the network you can st
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
Welcome to the Squeezebox (SB) world. You've got a whole lot of questions in your first post, mixed in with some correct observations and some apparent misperceptions. I don't think I can address all of them, but I'll try to get to the key ones. First, just because the wifi in your listening room is iffy doesn't mean you have to go with the Touch's built-in server (I'll call it TinyLMS) and a directly-attached USB drive. The TinyLMS+USB drive approach works for some and fails for others, but overall it has to be the most unreliable aspect of the whole SB system. Is there a way to run ethernet (cat5e or cat6) cable to your listening room? If not, what about homeplug adapters, which carry wired network traffic over your home's electrical wiring? Or adding a wifi access point in or near the listening room? In the end, improving the connectivity of your listening room to avoid dropouts is likely to be more satisfying than using TinyLMS plus an external drive. Second, as for system architecture, you correctly surmise that it's a client/server system. However, the Touch is primarily a client, and its server function is a distant second. The Touch, like all Squeezebox models, has to be connected to a server. That server could be LMS running on a computer (or on a NAS, or TinyLMS on an SB Touch) on your local network, or it could be mysqueezebox.com, which is "the server in the cloud." For playing back your ripped CDs, you usually need to have a local LMS/TinyLMS running. I say "usually" because there is a paid subscription service on mysqueezebox.com called MP3Tunes that allows you to upload your tracks (MP3 versions only) to an online storage site, and then play them back from there. But usually mysqueezebox.com (or mysb.com for lazy typists like me) is used for streaming from the internet: internet radio and services such as Pandora, Slacker, Rhapsody, Spotify, MOG, Last.fm, and others. Btw, it probably also helps to know that slimserver, SqueezeCenter (SC), Squeezebox Server (SBS), and Logitech Media Server (LMS) are all different names for the same thing, namely the server software that runs on a pc, NAS, or Touch (in a stripped-down version on the Touch). Apparently when they get bored at Logitech they rename things fairly indiscriminately. As for the pluses and minuses of Vortexbox Appliance, squeezeplug, or FitPC, my advice is that there is no hurry. Presumably you have a computer at present. Can you run LMS on that? If so, I would get started with that while you sort out issues such as the wifi in your listening room and ripping your CDs. It's always easy to upgrade/change your LMS server hardware later. My particular route started from an old surplus Dell desktop running Ubuntu to a hacked LinkStation NAS to a different hacked LinkStation NAS to my current headless Atom-based "nettop" that I assembled using largely the same hardware as a Vortexbox Appliance. And I still do all my ripping on my Windows laptop. Hope this helps at least a little. aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Seeking SBT Hard- & Software "Architecture" Description
To get you started read a bunch of this material. Somewhat outdated with terms (squeezenetwork is now my squeezebox.com and squeezecenter is LMS). But still very useful. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Main_Page Also, much more active group at Forums.slimdevices.com I'll post more, but for now id say avoid tinyLMS built into touch. Otherwise, great system. I have about 70,000 FLAC files and play them with no issues, controlling my whole house system from laptop, iPhone, or iPad. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96003 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
