RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Terry wrote: > Jesus and His disciples were Jews, still under > the law at the time. To break the law would be > sin, yet Jesus never sinned. The only explanation, > therefore is that the Jewish leaders did not understand > what keeping the sabbath entailed. Jesus knew the law. > They did not. Hi Terry. Previously you said that not to obey authorities would be a sin. Then you said that the only exception would be if we had to obey God rather than man. This is what led to me bringing up this passage in Matthew 12. Do you now see that "obeying God rather than man" is not the only exception to the teaching of the law to be subject to those in authority? Do you now see that one might disobey the law of authorities and yet not sin, even if it was for something as carnal as eating? I agree with you that Jesus knew the law, but more importantly, Jesus followed the spirit of the law and not the letter. May we who believe in him follow his example and inherit his wisdom. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Slade wrote: > There is one fact I would like to point out > to you. I have no idea what is in your heart. > I have no idea the inflection in the "voice" > of your writings. I could very well be > misunderstanding you. Who is the "you" that you would like to point something out to? Is your post something directed toward me or toward someone else? I find a lot of agreement with your posts, so I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding me, or just sharing something that is on your heart, or maybe even cross posting from another list. I see you countering those who are lawless, those who use grace to excuse sin. I'm in agreement with you concerning this. Nevertheless, the handwriting of ordinances is not the answer. I do have some concern that you don't understand the letter to the Galatians, but I'm not sure because you write into the air so-to-speak, rather than directing it toward what you are hearing. If you think that you and I might differ a little in how we understand things, let's try to find out where it is. Maybe one of us would grow in knowledge if we focus upon where our thoughts intersect. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Slade's Understanding
In other words, Deny self, take up your cross, follow Him. I got no problem with that. Sounds like you got your head on straight. Keep up the good work, brother. Terry - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Slade's Understanding Ok, Terry, here's the Email I promised. I believe I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself for it is the gift of God. This gift is not given to me as a result of my works so I have no room to boast. However, I cannot stop there for the very next verse says that I am His workmanship created in Messiah Yeshua for good works which God prepared beforehand so that I would walk in them. What am I to walk in? Whatever it was, it was prepared beforehand JUST FOR ME! I am to walk in them. The Psalms uses the same language saying that I am to walk in the Torah of YHVH. To me that makes sense, especially when I remember that I am a member of a peculiar people. Peculiar people stand out and they seem a little odd at times. I look odd compared to the average 39 year old, and that's OK. I was designed by my YHVH to be odd (and He is mine!!). As we grow in grace and knowledge, we will be reading His word and learning, applying the truths as we see and understand them. As we read, we will discover that we're to love Him with all our hearts. We learn we're to love our neighbor. We discover that we're not to take His Name in vain, that we should keep the seventh day Shabbat, that we should shoo the mother hen away from her eggs or young before we take them, that we should wear a cord of blue on the borders (or corners) of our garments, that we should open our hands and pockets to anyone in need, etc. Are we supposed to follow every single command when we become bon again? No. We grow in grace and knowledge. We apply it as we learn and understand how (if we can). If we decide not to obey something we read and understand, we fall into rebellion. This is iniquity and we run into spiritual problems. (If you'd like one way YHVH deals with rebellion, read about the man who purposely gathered sticks on Shabbat in the sight of all Yisrael [Numbers 15]. Mr. Stick Gatherer was only a symptom of a greater problem because Korach and his lackeys show up in the next chapter and the rebellion is in full swing. With Korach's death, there's one more instance where a groups of the Sons of Yisrael approach the Altar and Moshe contemptuously and they are smitten by plague that is stopped by Aharon's incense.) As we apply the truths and the commandments as we understand them, we are granted blessings in this life as prescribed in Torah. That's a wonderful benefit, considering disobedience brings curse in this life. The world is to look at me and know that I belong to YHVH because of my fruit. What is that fruit? We all know the fruit of the Spirit, and that fruit is manifested as I learn to Love YHVH will all my heart by keeping Him Number One in my life as I learn to be more obedient to Him. If this is a burden, I have yet to learn to love Him with all my heart, and my selfish desires are still on the pedestal in my heart. I am still an idolater, and my lusts are the idol. I want to be one who is able to stand at the coming of Messiah. I want to be one who endures to the end by keeping the commandments of God and holding fast to the testimony of Yeshua (quoted from Revelation). Is that clear as mud? -- slade
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
G: What a great way to put it! Simple elegance. Terry in Romans, ALL who follow JC biblically, by faith, have died to sin; and, dead to sin, they ALL realize that the Law is dead; it simply can't do for them what faith can
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Slade, Your messages go right to my heart! This one brought tears to my eyes. Izzy -Original Message- What is the foundation of your faith built on? Is it the Messiah? Is it the rock that watered the Sons of Yisrael in the Desert? Is it the voice that bellowed from Har Sinai? Is it the “Hayah Asher Hayah” who spoke from the thorn bush that was aflame yet didn’t burn? Is it the Ancient of Days who is destined to come (be it) soon and in our days on the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory? If so, our foundation is one and the same. The One who created the Universe and whose very Shekhinah entered our Universe and burst forth as light in Genesis 1:2 is the same One who perished on a tree outside Yerushalayim for our sins.
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
g, I’m glad to see that you no longer sin. J Izzy -Original Message- also, in Romans, ALL who follow JC biblically, by faith, have died to sin
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
AMEN! (And a big “Duh!”) Izzy Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Original Message- THERE ARE NO GENTILES IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!! Perhaps you need to read Romans 11 again. Those who were formerly far off have been brought close. THEY ARE GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL. They are NO LONGER GENTILES. If you are in covenant with the Almighty, you are not a Gentile. You need to start getting your semantics straight. If you want to continue calling yourself a Gentile, perhaps you really need to take a close look at your relationship with the God of Israel.
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
What you posted below is truth from God. Maybe God is trying to tell you something. People give you Bible but you have previously built into your mind a rejection and new invention of meaning of the truth you posted and rejected from God. This reminds me of quoting Bible to homosexuals. You can quote many of them all the Bible verses you want, but they have already heard those same Bible verses AND have previously built into their minds a rejection and new invention of meaning of those verses against homosexuality. Your mind is made up so there is no need to discuss this with you. "... shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15). I got tore into by someone on my Torah Commentary LISTSERV. The same old stuff... The Law's been done away with, it's been nailed to the cross! All I have to do is love God and love my neighbor! Haven't you read in Galatians “You foolish Galatians... because they again went into bondage to the hard taskmaster?” Jesus fulfilled the law and Jesus lives in me... so I am perfect in His Sight! Wish you would know the freedom of just loving Jesus and not to have to deal with all the old laws! They [the commandments] were to prove that we needed Jesus because if we could become perfect without Jesus then He came and died in vain! I am free from the law, why are you sending these messages! What do you do with a son or daughter who does not mind You take them to the elders and they take him outside of the city and stone him, right? According to the Old Testament! You think you go to prison today if you do that, and get the death penalty? You betcha! Are you saying you don't care, but you obey the Old Testament and do it anyway? I am free from the curse of the law! Jesus paid the price for all my transgressions! Whom the Son has set free is free indeed! If the Holy Spirit tells you to live in a home with naked walls and dull looking furniture whatever, by all means do it. Noah built a boat and the prophets did weird things, so I would never say don't do what God or the Holy Spirit tells you to do. But do not lay it on the shoulders of the people! That is not Gospel! There is all the talk and "revelation " about Christmas... everything is a sin. Hanukkah is not in the bible either ***Slade adds: which it is*** but do people make a big deal over it, betcha! What about the law being nailed to the tree? Let no man judge me what I eat, what I drink, what feasts I keep! Where is the grace? Are you making offerings and sacrifices because that is all in the Old Testament also? Can we put color in our clothes, like rainbow? There were anointed spirit-led carpenters and seamstresses, God choose them to make the tabernacle in the wilderness... He loves beauty. I am saddened that we have to waste time with all this nonsense, could be out there blessing people with the LOVE!
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
are you an American? On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:37:48 -0600 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: If you are in covenant with the Almighty, you are not a Gentile.
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
x666!!> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:13:56 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: g, I’m glad to see that you no longer sin. J Izzy -Original Message- also, in Romans, ALL who follow JC biblically, by faith, have died to sin
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
yes i've died to sin, Iz--but I confess: i ain't dead yet 'dead to sin' in romans is the eschatological prerequisite to 'confessing'--two parts to that (eternal) life: 1)confessing JC himself as in his teaching: 'if you confess Me.." 2)in Christ, confessing our sin/s which is possible only if you/we are 'dead to sin' 'what's better than an apple a day', m'am? see Jms 5:16:-) (and) "..confess y/our sins to each other and pray for each other so that [we] may be healed.." (more on 'eschatological prerequisite', above, later,if necessary--gotta run:-) gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Oh, so you have Eschatologically given up sin! Huh??? Iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently yes i've died to sin, Iz--but I confess: i ain't dead yet 'dead to sin' in romans is the eschatological prerequisite to 'confessing'--two parts to that (eternal) life: 1)confessing JC himself as in his teaching: 'if you confess Me.." 2)in Christ, confessing our sin/s which is possible only if you/we are 'dead to sin' 'what's better than an apple a day', m'am? see Jms 5:16:-) (and) "..confess y/our sins to each other and pray for each other so that [we] may be healed.." (more on 'eschatological prerequisite', above, later,if necessary--gotta run:-) gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
>If I were working for Mr. Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks . Mr. Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to change soon. Terry so, if you teo were working for Tommy Franks, would either of you follow Sadam's posted speed limit on the road/s to Baghdad? IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Gary wrote: > ... confessing our sin/s which is possible > only if you/we are 'dead to sin' I don't understand this statement. Dead men don't confess anything. They are dead. Being dead to sin means you no longer sin. Being alive to sin means you continue to sin. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
David Miller wrote: > They don't care that God's Word says > that those who are born of God cannot > sin. Glenn wrote: > This verse says "continue in sin". > You know it but you explain it away. I was talking about 1 John 5:18. You know very well that it does NOT say "continue in sin," but you explain it away by pointing out how another verse in the third chapter does say "continue in sin." Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with you saying that Christians do not continue in sin or do not continue to sin. I don't see the difference between saying that and saying that those born of God do not sin. I don't think the apostle John saw much difference either because he said it both ways in the same book. So why do you pick on me and not pick on the apostle John for being imperfect? What good does it do for you or for me to keep berating me for being imperfect? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
David, Lets suppose that one is a Christian and does not sin because Christians do not sin. Then, lets suppose that this same Christian lusts for a woman in his heart, or commits some other act that the scripture identifies as sin. Does that mean that this person was/is not really a Christian? If he really was/is a Christian, is he not a Christian after sinning? What happens if this Christian, after realizing his sin, kneels down to confess his sin and ask for forgiveness, and he falls, hits his head, and dies prior to confessing it? Is his eternal fate after he sinned, but before he confessed, different than his eternal fate had he died before he sinned? Again, lets suppose that we have one who has been a Christian for only 3 weeks, and commits a similar sin. Is this any different than a one who has been a Christian for 30 years and commits the same sin? Perry From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:54:42 -0500 David Miller wrote: > They don't care that God's Word says > that those who are born of God cannot > sin. Glenn wrote: > This verse says "continue in sin". > You know it but you explain it away. I was talking about 1 John 5:18. You know very well that it does NOT say "continue in sin," but you explain it away by pointing out how another verse in the third chapter does say "continue in sin." Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with you saying that Christians do not continue in sin or do not continue to sin. I don't see the difference between saying that and saying that those born of God do not sin. I don't think the apostle John saw much difference either because he said it both ways in the same book. So why do you pick on me and not pick on the apostle John for being imperfect? What good does it do for you or for me to keep berating me for being imperfect? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
I "pick on you" because you claim perfection without actually claiming perfection. I don't see where the Apostle John claimed to be perfect, you do so claim. There is a vast difference in my mind in "continuing in sin" and committing a single sin in a moment of weakness. The Greek makes a difference. Sometimes we unintentionally proof text the verses we want to use to make a point and ignore the others. It's like one person said, no matter what verse they give, one can explain what it doesn't mean or explain away the plain common sense meaning. I also think you have lowered the sin standard in order to be perfect. When in actuality you hate sin and are trying to fight hypocrites and wordiness in the church. God knows we need to fight hypocrites and worldliness in the church. I understand that. God knows we need to fight the doctrine that it is OK to sin. It is never OK to sin. Sin breaks God's heart. God hates sin so much He sent His only Son to die on the cross to save us from our sin. God also knows we need to fight the doctrine of easy believism. If there are no works, there is no assurance of salvation. The Bible says that God would that we were hot or cold. So then because we are neither hot or cold, He will spit us out of His mouth. Our churches are full of lukewarm people who cause God to vomit. God knows you are not lukewarm. Praise the Lord. I'm sorry you feel I am picking on you. But it does seem to me you are not coming clean. For example, you don't have to admit you have exceeded the speed limit. All drivers have exceeded the speed limit. To me this was a mind game. Your IQ is much higher than most people and it seems to me you use your IQ to argue your perfection doctrine instead of coming clean. It seems to me you are playing "intelligent" games with words. I think you are an outstanding Christian, but I don't see perfection. Now, I don't think any less of you for it. I think you are a man of God. You say you are a prophet, I have no reason to doubt it. I respect you and my disagreement over the perfection doctrine is not intended to be a personal attack, but I am trying to point out imperfection. If I am wrong, and you are as holy and perfect as God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, then forget what I say. Just write me off as not intelligent enough or spiritual enough to understand. :-) I see myself as a sinner (not currently continuing in sin) saved by faith through grace. I don't think there is any sin on earth that has ever been committed that I could also commit if given certain circumstances and timing. In my flesh dwelleth no good thing. The only good in me, is the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. As the Bible says there is a constant war between the flesh and the spirit. I'm sure you remember the Bible that says, what I don't want to do I do. What I want to do I don't do. Oh wretched man that I am. My apologies to you for offending you. David Miller wrote: > They don't care that God's Word says > that those who are born of God cannot > sin. Glenn wrote: > This verse says "continue in sin". > You know it but you explain it away. I was talking about 1 John 5:18. You know very well that it does NOT say "continue in sin," but you explain it away by pointing out how another verse in the third chapter does say "continue in sin." Glenn - I don't explain it away. I explain it by letting the Bible explain it. The Bible is the best interpretation of itself. Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with you saying that Christians do not continue in sin or do not continue to sin. I don't see the difference between saying that and saying that those born of God do not sin. I don't think the apostle John saw much difference either because he said it both ways in the same book. So why do you pick on me and not pick on the apostle John for being imperfect? What good does it do for you or for me to keep berating me for being imperfect? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
then some kinda disconnect arises in your posted view/s between 'law' and 'leadership'--note, though, i'm not terming this a contradiction now; (e.g.) how/why does your relationship to an outsider, Gen Franks, alter your relationship to Iraqi 'law'(?) (law which, given your view as i understand it, you would otherwise obey, i.e., as a regular Iraqi citizen, you, as a Christian, would generally abide by the letter of Sadam's 'laws' inc his posted speed limits--no?) (also, pls keep in mind this is a question for readers like me to try to process aspects your view--but just ignore it if you think it is not relevant--regards, g) gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0600 (Central Standard Time) "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >If I were working for Mr. Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks . Mr. Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to change soon. Terry so, if you teo were working for Tommy Franks, would either of you follow Sadam's posted speed limit on the road/s to Baghdad? IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
good questions; thx! gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 02:59:33 + "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> David,> > Lets suppose that one is a Christian and does not sin because > Christians > do not sin.> > Then, lets suppose that this same Christian lusts for a woman in > his > heart, or commits some other act that the scripture identifies as > sin.> > Does that mean that this person was/is not really a Christian?> > If he really was/is a Christian, is he not a Christian after > sinning?> > What happens if this Christian, after realizing his sin, kneels > down to > confess his sin and ask for forgiveness, and he falls, hits his > head, and > dies prior to confessing it?> > Is his eternal fate after he sinned, but before he confessed, > different > than his eternal fate had he died before he sinned?> > Again, lets suppose that we have one who has been a Christian for > only 3 > weeks, and commits a similar sin. Is this any different than a one > who has > been a Christian for 30 years and commits the same sin?> > Perry> ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
no wonder we get along so perfectly On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:19:44 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I see myself as a sinner (not currently continuing in sin) saved by faith through grace.
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
G: This is a no brainer. We are to obey those in authorrity over us, unless to obey them would mean disobeying God. The only way I would be in that country would be as a soldier, under authority. Since Saddam hates the true God, any order he gave would be in conflict with the Lord's will. If I were a Christian Iraq citizen, I would try, as far as was possible, to live peacably with all men. This would include obeying traffic laws. Terry - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently then some kinda disconnect arises in your posted view/s between 'law' and 'leadership'--note, though, i'm not terming this a contradiction now; (e.g.) how/why does your relationship to an outsider, Gen Franks, alter your relationship to Iraqi 'law'(?) (law which, given your view as i understand it, you would otherwise obey, i.e., as a regular Iraqi citizen, you, as a Christian, would generally abide by the letter of Sadam's 'laws' inc his posted speed limits--no?) (also, pls keep in mind this is a question for readers like me to try to process aspects your view--but just ignore it if you think it is not relevant--regards, g) gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0600 (Central Standard Time) "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >If I were working for Mr. Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks . Mr. Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to change soon. Terry so, if you teo were working for Tommy Franks, would either of you follow Sadam's posted speed limit on the road/s to Baghdad? IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
[TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following. Remember, just because an enforcer of the law does not tag you when you just barely break a law, doesnt mean it's not breaking the law. You still break the law and you offend the Most High God in the process. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and God establishes those who exist. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not causes of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (Romans 13:1-5)
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
if i tell you that the following activity Iz* an eschatological event, what would you say(?) * :-) l, g On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:10:05 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "..confess y/our sins to each other and pray for each other so that [we] may be healed.."
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
here's the source of the 'disconnect': 'those' (below) is plural; so 1) it is not a 'no brainer' partic while/when Gen Franks assumes temporary command of Iraq [a) Gen Franks can alter/control Iraqi law inc Sadams speed limits for both US soldiers and citizens at will (and is doing so now); b) but Sadam is at least equal to or greater in authority from God than Gen Franks--and these 'Godly' authorites conflict--keep in mind, neither of these men are Christians and you (as a Christian soldier OR Iraqi citizen in this example) are obligated (by your posted mindset/views) to obey both 'authorities' ftr, i think DavidM is in approx the same 'intellectual boat' goin' roughly the same direction as yours (splittin' hairs) (from what I've read)--nevertheless it's just food for thought; i'm no expert or attorney; just hoping to be wise/serve God wisely--we'll see:-) On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:14:30 -0600 "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: G: This is a no brainer. We are to obey those in authorrity over us, unless to obey them would mean disobeying God. The only way I would be in that country would be as a soldier, under authority. Since Saddam hates the true God, any order he gave would be in conflict with the Lord's will. If I were a Christian Iraq citizen, I would try, as far as was possible, to live peacably with all men. This would include obeying traffic laws. Terry - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently then some kinda disconnect arises in your posted view/s between 'law' and 'leadership'--note, though, i'm not terming this a contradiction now; (e.g.) how/why does your relationship to an outsider, Gen Franks, alter your relationship to Iraqi 'law'(?) (law which, given your view as i understand it, you would otherwise obey, i.e., as a regular Iraqi citizen, you, as a Christian, would generally abide by the letter of Sadam's 'laws' inc his posted speed limits--no?) (also, pls keep in mind this is a question for readers like me to try to process aspects your view--but just ignore it if you think it is not relevant--regards, g) gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0600 (Central Standard Time) "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >If I were working for Mr. Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks . Mr. Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to change soon. Terry so, if you teo were working for Tommy Franks, would either of you follow Sadam's posted speed limit on the road/s to Baghdad? IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
Oops, I forgot about this part... Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the King (1 Kefa/Peter 2:13-17) -- slade - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 22:12 Subject: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin? For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following. Remember, just because an enforcer of the law does not tag you when you just barely break a law, doesnt mean it's not breaking the law. You still break the law and you offend the Most High God in the process. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and God establishes those who exist. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not causes of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (Romans 13:1-5)
Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
DAVEH: Is it legal for an Iraqi citizen to be a Christian??? Terry Clifton wrote: G:This is a no brainer. We are to obey those in authorrity over us, unless to obey them would mean disobeying God. The only way I would be in that country would be as a soldier, under authority. Since Saddam hates the true God, any order he gave would be in conflict with the Lord's will. If I were a Christian Iraq citizen, I would try, as far as was possible, to live peacably with all men. This would include obeying traffic laws.Terry-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
\o/ !HALALUYah! \o/ Greetings Slade in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! I dug this one out of my archives that someone submitted on another list about four years ago ... (1st)Going over the posted speed limit is not necessarily breaking any 'law'. 'Speeding' is simply an 'infraction' of the code of the state. That is, if one makes the decision to go over the posted limit that person makes a choice willingly, if caught by the police, to pay dues or fines for the infraction of a contract. The infraction of the contract, is the one when he takes a state issued drivers license he agrees to abid by the code of said state, and by extension the code of another state in which he wishes to travel. So speeding is the breaking of a contract and getting caught, the penality is a fine. (2nd)A speed limit in and of itself is an unjust tax. That is a tax upon ones time. In effect it is an act of theft. (3rd)In order for there to be a 'law' against something there needs to be an injured party or should be at least. The state can not be an injured party in such an act, only as it is breaking the aforementioned contract. Same way as when one comes to a red light in the middle of the night out on the open road and no other vehicles in sight for as far as one can see. Please find me the victim or injured party for stoping and then proceeding through the light. The only victim is the one that sits and waits for the green light (a slave or one in servitude if you will) it is an undue tax upon their time, another act of theft. (4th)There is no reason to enter into the contract mentioned above, as freedom of travel is a right not a privilage. Only in a police state would one be denied the freedom of travel. This idea that driving is a privilage can only come from people being dumbed down in our public education system. Ya see the legal definition of a license grants permision to one to do that which would otherwise be unlawful. Traveling the last time I knew was not something that is unlawful. Neither is the owning of property to do so and than using it for said purpose. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, Chris - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04/01/2003 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin? Oops, I forgot about this part... Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the King (1 Kefa/Peter 2:13-17) -- slade - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 22:12 Subject: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin? For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following. Remember, just because an enforcer of the law does not tag you when you just barely break a law, doesnt mean it's not breaking the law. You still break the law and you offend the Most High God in the process. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and God establishes those who exist. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not causes of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (Romans 13:1-5)
[TruthTalk] The Handwriting of Ordinances and Other Stuff
David Said: I see you countering those who are lawless, those who use grace to excuse sin. I'm in agreement with you concerning this. Slade Says: Good. I am also trying to refute those who believe that the will of God outlined in the Old Testament is somehow beneath them... that they don't have to do any of that because they are somehow higher or spiritually superior. David said: Nevertheless, the handwriting of ordinances is not the answer. I do have some concern that you don't understand the letter to the Galatians, but I'm not sure because you write into the air so-to-speak, rather than directing it toward what you are hearing. Slade Says: Fair enough, Dave. Maybe I am being a bit too matter-of-fact with this thing. Please forgive me. I appreciate what you've said about Galatians, but I've studied that book more than any other book of the New Testament (with the possible exception to Revelation) because I get it shoved in my face all the time. However, since youve mentioned Colossians, I guess well start there. I would like to give you my understanding of the Handwriting of Ordinances you mentioned and see if it jives with your understanding. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He [Abba] made you alive together with Him [Yeshua], having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the(KJV: handwriting of ordinances) against us, which was hostile to us; and He [Abba] has taken it [the certificate of debt] out of the way, having nailed it [the certificate of debt] to the cross. When He [Abba] had disarmed the rulers and authorities; He [Abba] made a public display of them [the rulers and authorities], having triumphed over them [the rulers and authorities] through Him [Yeshua]. (Col 2:13-15) What was nailed to the tree? Whatever it was, it is an IT not a THEM. Do you see that? It is a singular entity: the certificate of debt not the commandments (plural) of YHVH. The certificate of debt is the proof (so to speak) that you deserve torment in the Lake of Fire and that gets nailed to the tree. Thats my understanding of the passage. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a shadow of what is to come, the body of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) How should we be not be judging? Most people say that they can choose whatever day for Shabbat they want and we cannot judge. Thats not how I receive this passage. I would like to give you an example of how I apply this passage. A woman who went to our congregation in Williams Bay, Wisconsin thinks the Mishnah is as authoritative as the whole of Scripture. As such, she started joyfully taking on all the oral traditions passed down through the ages. This included lighting the Shabbat candles 24 minutes before sundown, always having two loaves of Challah, never mixing dairy and meat in the same meal, saying all the traditional prayers (in what I call hillbilly Hebrew quite painful to listen to). She believes with all her heart this needs to be done in order to be fully obedient to YHVH whom she calls Hashem, Adonai, or G-d. Were she to come to me and say that I have to do all the prescribed Rabbinical Shabbat traditions in order to properly separate the Shabbat from every other day, I would throw Colossians 2:16-17 in her face because she is not to judge me in how I keep Shabbat because I DO keep Shabbat, but I do it my way. I still obey the six Biblical rules for Shabbat and if I do anything else its because I have adopted my own traditions and I know they are simply traditions and not Scripture (i.e., the Shabbat nap). Likewise, I will not tell a person who wants to be a vegetarian that they must eat meat. The vegetarian and I both must realize that all food considered clean are good to be eaten or we could choose not to eat them. Meanwhile, Paul was writing to a group of converts who were being told by a bunch on unbelievers that they didnt have to do the feasts days as outlined in the Tanakh. Its just like here on TruthTalk where we have people like Glenn claiming that the feasts and the Shabbat are done away with JUST LIKE IN COLOSSAE. The parallel is almost eerie. As a side note, all the festivals of YHVH are things which are a shadow of what is to come, but a better way to translate that passage in Modern English is: which are a shadow of things coming and the Body of Messiah. This phrase parallels the shadow and the body of Messiah as one and the same. Do away with one and you do away with the other. Look to the Greek and verify using Strongs and B.A.G. (page 170, column 2) and see it for yourself. If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, s
[TruthTalk] The Sunshine In My Cheerios
Glenn. You are only partially right. The woman, a pastor, is an agent of YHVH in my life, just like you are. You both serve the same purpose. She does it in a gentle way while you attempt to get under my skin like a chigger. The position you serve is as delineated by Moshe: ¶ "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 12:32-13:5) You and she must heed the warnings of the Prophet Jeremiah before you both are destroyed. Your testimony is one of an antinomian (someone against the Law of Moses), therefore you have forsaken the covenant. Read 11:9-11, 13:10-15, 22:8-10, and 44:4-5. In spite of your persistent barbs, I will chose to be obedient to YHVH and I will continue to cling to Him. I will keep His Festival days, I will raise my tribe of children in like manner, and I will banish all pagan holidays and observances (like Halloween, Christmas, SUN-day, St. Patty's Day, Easter, St. Valentine's Day, Lent, Mardi Gras, Communion, April Fool's Day). I thank YHVH for giving me thick skin. I love you, Glenn. Can you feel the love? Biigg Huugg! (Did I hear Po's voice...?) -- slade Oh, by the way Glenn, I hope you have a wonderful Rosh Chodesh (That's "New Moon" in English). It's also the head of the year as well, so Shannah Tova to you!! I hope YHVH blesses you with a worthy year. Did you know Passover is 14 days away? I am very excited! We get to eat lamb, bitter herbs, unleavened bread, and spend the next seven days in Scripture purging the leaven from our doctrine. Do you want to come over? I have a tent you can borrow so you can emulate the Wilderness experience. It'll be great! We have a lot of ticks and everything here in Arkansas! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently What you posted below is truth from God. Maybe God is trying to tell you something. People give you Bible but you have previously built into your mind a rejection and new invention of meaning of the truth you posted and rejected from God. This reminds me of quoting Bible to homosexuals. You can quote many of them all the Bible verses you want, but they have already heard those same Bible verses AND have previously built into their minds a rejection and new invention of meaning of those verses against homosexuality. Your mind is made up so there is no need to discuss this with you."... shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15).
