[TruthTalk] Saving Faith -- what is it?
Question : "Who can declare what are the essential doctrines of soteriology?? All the doctrines are interconnected. The Scripture cannot be broken. So, anyone denying one doctrine, denies them all." My response: There are TWO issues here. 1st -- as you said, anyone who repudiates any of the essential doctrines of the Scripture is actually repudiating God. This is my whole point about ASSURANCE of salvation. The Scripture says over and over again that ALL believers "ARE justified", "will NOT come into judgment", "ARE born of God", etc. Anyone praying to be justified/regenerated is admitting that they are NOT a believer. In fact, to say that you believe in the Resurrection of Christ, but to question your own salvation is to try to SEPARATE what God has joined together. God says, "if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead, YOU SHALL BE SAVED." How could anyone possibly believe in the Resurrection and not be perfectly assured of their own salvation by Christ's finished work? Can someone believe God when He speaks about the Resurrection, but call Him a liar when He speaks about salvation for all who believe? The 2nd issue -- Clearly, there are some doctrines which believers can be confused about. For instance, the Corinthian believers for a while had a complete misunderstanding about the Lord's Supper. The rich were feasting and neglecting the poorer believers. Yet Paul calls these Corinthians "brothers" in Christ. Why? The Corinthians behaviour was sinful, but it did not prove that they were believing a false gospel. Contrast this, however, with those denying the Resurrection of the Dead. To deny this, is to deny Christ's Resurrection. 12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. 35 But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?"36 Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying. This is not a major point of controversy with most Calvinists.The REAL debate surrounds the nature of saving faith. Most Calvinists are COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY IGNORANT about the simplicity of faith. They make faith emotional, mystical and into a work. It's impossible for them to have assurance of salvation. After all, how can they ever know they possess saving faith, if it is such an obscure, un-definable "act of the soul"??? If faith is intellectually un-definable and un-knowable, we cannot identify it in ourselves, and subsequently NEVER know whether or not we are justified. Then there are those who have not fallen into this snare of the devil. The know that faith is simply belief. And belief is to credit/assent/ be convicted / know a proposition. Therefore, saving faith is simply to believe the bare truth of the gospel, i.e. Christ has fulfilled the Law and been sacrificed for the Sheep. Faith is simple and definable. The gospel is simply and definable. This means that both can be IDENTIFIED in the mind easily. This is why Paul could say that ANYONE who cannot identify the doctrine of Christ in themselves, is lost. "Know not Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" Likewise, Christ said that believers will "NEVER thirst", but they have "a well of living water springing up to everlasting life." He says that not only does He know the Sheep, but He is "KNOWN OF MINE." For, even the faith of a mustard seed moves mountains, i.e., is without doubt. He that doubts is damned. For let not him that wavers/doubts expect anything from God !!! (James 1). Doubters are unbelievers.And this is why when Paul wrote to the Ephesians he addressed his epistle to "the saints and faithful" at Ephesus. The believers at Ephesus MUST have had a full assurance that they were saints. Otherwise, how would they have known the epistle was addressed to them?? Full assurance is the privilege of every believer.Andrew Bain Sydney, Australia http://www.xanga.com/andrew_c_bain
[TruthTalk] Imputed Righteousness is Essential Doctrine
Today, I came across a quote that I would like to bring up for discussion: "People can be saved in varying degrees of theological error. There are regenerated people who do not understand predestination, don't accept election, don't understand federal headship, are clueless about imputation, Christ's eternal priesthood, covenant, etc., yet they are regenerated. They simply haven't learned those doctrinal truths yet. Are they condemned for not rightly understanding these very important biblical teachings? No, because the ones I just listed in this paragraph are not declared to be essential doctrines by the Bible." The reason I want to bring this quote up for discussion is because I DO think that IMPUTATION is the gospel. By "imputation", I mean the doctrine that 1) the sins of the Elect were transferred into Christ's account on the cross, and He suffered the due penalty for them. Then there is 2) the fact that God credits the righteousness of Christ (His obedience to the Law) into the accounts of the Sheep at their justification. Now, the onus is on me to prove that these two imputations are the gospel. The "church fathers" didn't believe it was the gospel. The "creeds of Christendom" don't teach that it is gospel either. But I think the Scripture does. And the Scripture is the sole way God reveals Himself to men. Let's see what it teaches.To begin with, Romans 1:16-17 states that the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel. Now, what is the "righteousness of God" ?? Answer: "Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes." (Rom 10:4). The heart of the gospel is the teaching that Christ was "made under the Law" "to redeem those under the Law". The Law which Christ obeyed demands PERFECT PERPETUAL obedience from ALL men, and pronounces a CURSE of damnation on all who fail to keep it flawlessly. Indeed, "the soul that sins shall die." Anyone who worships the Just God and Saviour of the Scriptures will HAVE to know about imputed righteousness. It's OBVIOUS from the Scripture that man must be PERFECT to worship God, and since all men everywhere are sinners, it MUST be the work of SOMEONE ELSE (Christ) that constitutes the elect sinner right before God. You would have to be completely IGNORANT of God's UTTER DISGUST with the smallest disobedience, to deny imputed righteousness. God says, "cursed is everyone who does not obey all these statues," and "not the hearer of the Law, but the doer of the Law shall live,". Clearly, if you are not perfect in the sight of God you will NOT enter heaven -- you are under the wrath of God. You need Christ's righteousness. Because Only His obedience to the Law can met the demands of the Law. In fact Romans 3 says that the FAITHFULNESS of Christ to the Law is the way God DEMONSTRATES His righteousness. "God set forth a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, (26) for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus." Anyone ignorant of IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT understand God's righteousness. They do not believe the gospel.It's now time to look at the other half of the gospel: IMPUTED SIN. "He who knew no sin was made sin," and "the chastisement of our peace was upon Him." Now, you would have to be a hardened heretic to deny that The Atonement is PLAINLY LIMITED in the Scriptures to believers. "I lay down my life for the sheep", Christ said, not the goats who will perish. "I pray not for the world," He said, and Ephesians 5:25 says that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the Church. Obviously, LOVE is ALWAYS limited to SOMEONE (e.g. your wife, if you are a married man), or a GROUP of people in the case of Christ. To say that Christ died for some people who will perish is to deny His work was 100% sufficient to save from hell. I'll stop here. Andrew BainSydney, Australiahttp://www.Godnoliar.com
[TruthTalk] Unbelievers CANNOT Pray
I hold to the view that unbelievers cannot pray to God. I'd like to start a thread on this. My first pointer will be to a question from the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:14. “How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed?” Here's my take on it Let’s consider how the gospel was presented by the Apostles and Christ in the NT: Then let it be KNOWN to you, men, brothers, that through this One remission of sin is ANNOUNCED to you. And everyone BELIEVING in this One is justified, (Acts 13:38-39). For if you do not BELIEVE that I AM, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24). ## Here men dead in sins are COMMANDED to believe the facts of the gospel. Those who believe the facts know they are justified by the righteousness of Christ. Those who do not believe, are unregenerate. Read Peter again. He does not “offer” them salvation. He does not “invite” them to pray a-little-prayer. Peter demonstrates TRUE EVANGELISM — the SIMPLE command to repent (have a change of mind) and believe the gospel. Peter simply ANNOUNCES the bare facts of what Christ ACCOMPLISHED, i.e. remissions of all the sins of past, present and future believers. Peter also mentions the fact that all believers are “not guilty”, and if you read elsewhere (e.g. Romans 10:4), you’ll see that believers have FULFILLED the Law, because they have Christ’s righteousness in their account. So believers can and do pray to God out of thanks, for being given a PERFECT righteousness. Unbelievers, on the other hand, don’t even know God exists (Psa 14:1). But does that mean that unbelievers don’t have to obey the Law? May it NEVER be! They are commanded to obey EVERY letter of it, WITH FAITH. “Those who forsake the law praise the wicked.” (Pro 28:4), i.e., NO ONE may “get-out-of” obeying the Law, despite their inability. In fact, the Apostle Paul, for instance, says that “the men” are “to pray in every place”. But he doesn’t leave it there, they are to pray “lifting up holy hands WITHOUT wrath and DOUBTING.” (2 Tim2:8). “He that comes to God”—worships, prays, obeys God—“MUST BELIEVE that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.”(Heb11) Unbelievers are always commanded to pray (and obey the whole Law) WITH FAITH. Why? “Because without faith it is impossible to please Him.” (Hebrews 6) and “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23). Men are commanded to pray with faith, period. There has not, nor ever will be, a command for unbelievers to pray FOR faith. To pray FOR faith, is to ADMIT being WITHOUT faith. And everyone without faith, is “without Christ, and without hope in the world.” If an unbeliever “prays” FOR faith, their prayer is NOT to God, but to the devil himself, “the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,” (Eph 2:2). To pray FOR faith is to admit being a DOWNRIGHT Atheist and HYPOCRITE, and a Hater of Jesus Christ. And only Satan takes pleasure in such prayers. Stephen Pribble (Head of the OPC website) and John Piper are READING THE NEW TESTAMENT BACKWARDS, when they tell people to pray IN ORDER to be saved. Here are Pribble’s words — “Would you like to receive Jesus Christ right now? Pray: “Lord, I know I am a sinner….Be merciful to me and save me now for Jesus’ sake.” (Pribble, Do you know how to get to heaven?). PRIBBLE IS READING THE NEW TESTAMENT BACK-TO-FRONT. He is commanding unbelievers to sin !! To Pray without faith is WICKED, an ABOMINATION and SATANIC. And Pribble’s telling men to do it. Woe to him !! Pribble is not of the apostolic faith. The Apostles – the ONLY Ambassadors of Christ – commanded men to TURN AWAY from sin, NOT to practice it. In fact, there is NO DIFFERENCE between “Bishop” Spong and Stephen Pribble. Both exhort men to approach the Father OUTSIDE of Christ. Spong says that Hindus, Muslims etc. came come before God without Christ. And is Pribble any different? He says, “Would you like to receive Jesus Christ right now? Pray: “Lord. I know I am a sinner…” Pribble is COMMANDING MEN TO COME TO THE FATHER OUTSIDE THE SON. Pribble is telling men to pray to the Father, even though they do not have the knowledge and imputed righteousness of the Son. But “NO man comes to the Father but by Me.”, says Christ (Jn 6:44) The Biblical order of prayer is to #1) Believe and be saved and, then #2) Pray out of thanks for salvation, “Abba, Father” (Romans 8.) – something a child of Satan CANNOT do. I leave you with the words of the Apostle Peter in Acts 8, telling the unbeliever Simon Magnus to REPENT (believe the gospel), then PRAY (with faith). 20 But Peter said to him, May your silver be with you into perdition, because you thought to get the gift of God through money.21 There is neither part nor lot to you in this matter, for your heart is not upright before the face of God.22 Repent, then, from this wickedness of yours, and petition God if perhaps you will be forgiven the thought of your heart. Andrew BainSydney, Austral
[TruthTalk] Unbelievers CANNOT Pray
I hold to the view the unbelievers cannot pray to God. I'd like to start a thread on this, and question from the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:14. “How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed?” Here's my take on it Let’s consider how the gospel was presented by the Apostles and Christ in the NT: Then let it be KNOWN to you, men, brothers, that through this One remission of sin is ANNOUNCED to you. And everyone BELIEVING in this One is justified, (Acts 13:38-39). For if you do not BELIEVE that I AM, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24). ## Here men dead in sins are COMMANDED to believe the facts of the gospel. Those who believe the facts know they are justified by the righteousness of Christ. Those who do not believe, are unregenerate. Read Peter again. He does not “offer” them salvation. He does not “invite” them to pray a-little-prayer. Peter demonstrates TRUE EVANGELISM — the SIMPLE command to repent (have a change of mind) and believe the gospel. Peter simply ANNOUNCES the bare facts of what Christ ACCOMPLISHED, i.e. remissions of all the sins of past, present and future believers. Peter also mentions the fact that all believers are “not guilty”, and if you read elsewhere (e.g. Romans 10:4), you’ll see that believers have FULFILLED the Law, because they have Christ’s righteousness in their account. So believers can and do pray to God out of thanks, for being given a PERFECT righteousness. Unbelievers, on the other hand, don’t even know God exists (Psa 14:1). But does that mean that unbelievers don’t have to obey the Law? May it NEVER be! They are commanded to obey EVERY letter of it, WITH FAITH. “Those who forsake the law praise the wicked.” (Pro 28:4), i.e., NO ONE may “get-out-of” obeying the Law, despite their inability. In fact, the Apostle Paul, for instance, says that “the men” are “to pray in every place”. But he doesn’t leave it there, they are to pray “lifting up holy hands WITHOUT wrath and DOUBTING.” (2 Tim2:8). “He that comes to God”—worships, prays, obeys God—“MUST BELIEVE that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.”(Heb11) Unbelievers are always commanded to pray (and obey the whole Law) WITH FAITH. Why? “Because without faith it is impossible to please Him.” (Hebrews 6) and “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23). Men are commanded to pray with faith, period. There has not, nor ever will be, a command for unbelievers to pray FOR faith. To pray FOR faith, is to ADMIT being WITHOUT faith. And everyone without faith, is “without Christ, and without hope in the world.” If an unbeliever “prays” FOR faith, their prayer is NOT to God, but to the devil himself, “the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,” (Eph 2:2). To pray FOR faith is to admit being a DOWNRIGHT Atheist and HYPOCRITE, and a Hater of Jesus Christ. And only Satan takes pleasure in such prayers. Stephen Pribble (Head of the OPC website) and John Piper are READING THE NEW TESTAMENT BACKWARDS, when they tell people to pray IN ORDER to be saved. Here are Pribble’s words — “Would you like to receive Jesus Christ right now? Pray: “Lord, I know I am a sinner….Be merciful to me and save me now for Jesus’ sake.” (Pribble, Do you know how to get to heaven?). PRIBBLE IS READING THE NEW TESTAMENT BACK-TO-FRONT. He is commanding unbelievers to sin !! To Pray without faith is WICKED, an ABOMINATION and SATANIC. And Pribble’s telling men to do it. Woe to him !! Pribble is not of the apostolic faith. The Apostles – the ONLY Ambassadors of Christ – commanded men to TURN AWAY from sin, NOT to practice it. In fact, there is NO DIFFERENCE between “Bishop” Spong and Stephen Pribble. Both exhort men to approach the Father OUTSIDE of Christ. Spong says that Hindus, Muslims etc. came come before God without Christ. And is Pribble any different? He says, “Would you like to receive Jesus Christ right now? Pray: “Lord. I know I am a sinner…” Pribble is COMMANDING MEN TO COME TO THE FATHER OUTSIDE THE SON. Pribble is telling men to pray to the Father, even though they do not have the knowledge and imputed righteousness of the Son. But “NO man comes to the Father but by Me.”, says Christ (Jn 6:44) The Biblical order of prayer is to #1) Believe and be saved and, then #2) Pray out of thanks for salvation, “Abba, Father” (Romans 8.) – something a child of Satan CANNOT do. I leave you with the words of the Apostle Peter in Acts 8, telling the unbeliever Simon Magnus to REPENT (believe the gospel), then PRAY (with faith). 20 But Peter said to him, May your silver be with you into perdition, because you thought to get the gift of God through money.21 There is neither part nor lot to you in this matter, for your heart is not upright before the face of God.22 Repent, then, from this wickedness of yours, and petition God if perhaps you will be forgiven the thought of your heart. Andrew BainSydney, Australiahttp://www.xanga.com/andre
[TruthTalk] Hi John
G'day John, How are you? No, I haven't heard of Bruce. Andrew PS Are men 100% saved by the obedience of Christ?
[TruthTalk] Antinomianism Refuted
## An Antinomian writes, "We serve God now because we want to, not because we're bound by a written code." My comment -- this sounds super-spiritual, but it's not. This is an attack on the obligation of all men to obey all God's commandments in all circumstances. This is an attack on God's authority. He demands PERFECT, ABSOLUTE obedience from ALL men. The gospel is not a message of God lowering His demand for perpetual holiness from his creatures. Neither is it a message of men being freed from the obligation to obey the WRITTEN CODE of God. Rather, the gospel is a proclamation that totally sinless Jesus Christ obeyed the Law perfectly for the Elect. It is an announcement -- The Just God WILL JUSTIFY the sinful Elect by imputing Christ's obedience to the Law into their accounts. Romans 3:31 Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law. ## The Law has not been made void. Believers enter heaven SOLELY because Christ ESTABLISHED the Law for them. No imputed righteousness (no garment -- see the parable) then no reward. When I hear things like, "We serve God because we want to, not because we're bound by a written code" I can see someone TRYING to SEPARATE what God has JOINED together. Yes, believers do want to serve God (because they have full assurance that God loves them as His elect). And, YES, believers have no fears of condemnation by the Law. "You are no longer a slave, but a son (Galatians 4). But the ONLY way believers know how to obey God is BY THE LAW. The Moral Law and additional the New Testament precepts are CLEAR commands that MUST be obeyed. This Written Code is the only source of knowledge for God's requirements. When Christ speaks of the Greatest Two Commandments -- LOVE God and your neighbour -- He is in NO way abrogating the 10 commandments. He is summarising the Moral Law. Elsewhere, John says, "By this we know that we LOVE God, if we OBEY His COMMANDMENTS." Christians are MOTIVATED to serve God's Law by the knowledge that their sins are forgiven, and the Law was fulfilled for them. See the woman in Luke 7, who loved much because she knew she was much forgiven. And believers are OBLIGED to obey every single precept of the Moral Law (and the NT precepts too), because it is in God's written code. The idea that the written code has less authority on NT believers than OT believers would mean that God's demand for holiness has changed (and thus, God has changed.) But He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. And He gives some the perfect righteousness of Christ, whilst His wrath abides on the rest. The first group have no condemnation in Christ Jesus --and have full assurance that they have the imputed righteousness. The others have been reprobated based on God's will, and will be go to hell. But all must obey the written code. Andrew C. Bain Sydney, Australia http://www.xanga.com/andrew_c_bain
[TruthTalk] Repentance Unto Life
G'day everyone, There is much confusion about what constitutes "repentance unto life". Most people make it into a work necessary for salvation. I don't. So I'm interested to know what you think about a brief article I wrote on the Presbyterian view. I think Presbyterians (like almost every other sect) make repentance into a work, and therefore believe salvation by works. Andrew Bain. Sydney Australia. Presbyterians and Reformed people understand repentance unto life to mean, “a hating of sin”, “sorrowing for sin”, “endeavouring to do better”, and “turning from all sins unto God” (Q87 WSC). Without this sorrowing, their Confession says, no one can expect pardon of sin (WCF, 15:2, 15:3). And when does this work of sorrowing occur, according to the WCF? BEFORE (or at) justification. "By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, and upon the APPREHENSION of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God..." (WCF 15:2). The WCF uses the word "apprehension". To "apprehend" something is to "grasp" or "perceive" something. What the WCF is saying, is that sinners must perform the work of sorrowing, simultaneous (or prior to) justification. Apprehension of Christ occurs at justification. Therefore, if the sinner must sorrow for sin when apprehending Christ, then he must do a work (of sorrowing) at justification! Thus, your confession teaches that men must do the good work of sorrowing in order to be justified. And your catechism teaches that sinners must "endeavour to do better" in order to be justified. Well, I have some questions for you. Firstly, what does God mean when He says, “I was found by those not seeking Me; I became known to those not inquiring after Me,” Rom 10:20. Doesn't He mean, that He justifies men without them seeking Him at all? Secondly, what does Christ mean in Mark 2:17? He says He did not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners. Now, think about this. Someone that sorrows for their sins before justification is a BIT righteous, aren't they? They've done SOME good works (sorrowing and hating sin is a good work if caused by the Holy Spirit). So IF God did save men through making them sorrow for their sins, prior to justification, then he would be making them a bit righteous before justification. But Mark 2:17 says He doesn't. He justifies those who have never shown any love to Him. God declares those righteous who don't have a shred of the "marks of graces" in themselves (the unregenerate are just FLESH -- see Genesis 6:3). And how does God justify the ungodly? By the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone wholly OUTSIDE them. Finally, doesn't repentance = belief, when used in the context of justification? In the Book of Acts, didn't the Apostles use repentance and belief interchangeably? Or, compare Christ's words "the one believing and being baptized will be saved," (Mk16:16) to Peter's "repent and be baptized." Clearly REPENTANCE = BELIEVING. Both signify a change of mind from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge. Compare these Scriptures. Acts 10:43 ... everyone *BELIEVING* into Him will receive remission of sins. Acts 17:30 ... God strictly commands all men everywhere to *REPENT*, Acts 16:30 Sirs, what must I do that I may be saved? Acts 16:31 ... *BELIEVE* on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. Acts 2:37 ... Men, brothers, What shall we do?Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, *REPENT* and be baptized... Mk 16:16 The one *BELIEVING* and being baptized will be saved. From these Scriptures it's clear that repentance in the context of justification is just bare belief of the bare truth. And look at Hebrews 12:17. Esau sorrowed over the punishment inflicted on him by Isaac. Now, he sorrowed, but this did not constitute repentance. "He found no place of repentance though he sought it carefully with tears," Heb 12:17. In other words, there was something DEFECTIVE about what Esau believed. Defective repentance, means a defective belief. And to speak of defective belief, what more can we say about the "beloved" Westminster Standards? Christ said "It is finished" on the cross, didn't He? There's NOTHING -- no thoughts, emotions or obedience -- required for justification. "Abraham believed God and His faith was imputed to him unto righteousness". Abraham was justified by the One he believed in, Christ. The Bible often refers to Christ as "The faith", so God is saying "Christ was imputed" to Abraham "unto righteousness". And Abraham was justified -- declared righteous -- based on the obedience of Christ in His account. But this righteousness was NOT IN Abraham. It was wholly EXTERNAL. Isaiah refers to being "clothed with the garments of salvation" and "covered with the robe of righteousness" (Isaia
[TruthTalk] Justification
G'day Dave, I'd look to Romans 8:30... But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ...From start to end of salvation, God determines who, when and how people will be saved. But when exactly, does someone know they are "saved from the wrath to come" and "justified from all things"? Romans 5:1... Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ...It's only when the Holy Spirit regenerates and converts someone to the truth that they have peace with God. Prior to that, they are "children of wrath" like the children of darkness (Ephesians 2). It's at justification when Christ's righteousness is imputed to them, and they have a judicial peace with God. That is, there is NO CONDEMNATION IS CHRIST JESUS for them, because they have been legally charged "not guilty". It's at this point--justification--that the angels rejoice. And as well as being perfectly righteous in the sight of God by Christ's righteousness, like the Hebrew elders (Heb11) the believer has the GOOD report from God. Like Abraham, the believer will be fully persuaded of God's promise to save him. He will glory in the cross of Christ, knowing that his sins were imputed to Christ, who became a vicarious sacrifice for all the Elect. Andrew Bain Sydney, Australia http://www.it-is-finished.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 12:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Doubting your salvation ? DAVEH: Welcome to TT, Andrew. Question When do you think that person (who confesses and believes) will be saved? Andrew C. Bain wrote: If someone doubts that they are a believer of the gospel, because they sin, then they do not understand the gospel. . Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. Andrew Bain Sydney, Australia http://hermanhoeksema.lifewithchrist.org -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
[TruthTalk] Imputed Righteousness
Hi John, I'm glad you read what I wrote. Christ said "It is finished" on the cross, didn't He? There's NOTHING -- no thoughts, emotions or obedience -- required for justification. "Abraham believed God and His faith was imputed to him unto righteousness". Abraham was justified by the One he believed in, Christ. The Bible often refers to Christ as "The faith", so God is saying "Christ was imputed" to Abraham "unto righteousness". And Abraham was justified -- declared righteous -- based on the obedience of Christ in His account. But this righteousness was NOT IN Abraham. It was wholly EXTERNAL. Isaiah refers to being "clothed with the garments of salvation" and "covered with the robe of righteousness" (Isaiah 61:10). What saved Isaiah was outside him. He was covered and clothed with righteousness, NOT infused with it (like the wedding guests in the parable). Similarly, the sins of sheep were imputed to Christ on the cross. Intellectually and judicially the sins of the Elect became Christ's (like a debt of $50 can be charged to someone else's account, and the debt becomes theirs intellectually and judicially, even though they never contracted the debt - so Christ never sinned himself). In Psalm 38:4 Christ calls the Elect's sins "my iniquities". We know that Psalm 34 is talking about Christ and NOT David, because v20 of it is applied to Christ in John 19:36. (In fact, the New Testament NEVER says the Psalms are about David at all!). So there are two imputations. Christ took the Elect's sin (#1) and gives Him their righteousness (#2). And they're completely passive in earning Heaven. Instead, "this is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Only the finished work of Christ can satisfy God's demand for absolute obedience to the Eternal Law. Andrew BainSydney, Australiahttp://www.Godnoliar.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Doubting your salvation ? Welcome, Andrew. Good words --- important words. It is surprising to me how many Christian folk want to believe something other than this message of hope. They are everywhere -- even here on TT. Good folk who believe that works save them rather than the bibilical notion (IMO) that our works extend from the salvation that is within us -- one we call The Christ. Thanks again for your words. JD -Original Message-From: Andrew C. Bain <andrew[EMAIL PROTECTED]com>To: TruthTalk <TruthTalk@mail.innglory..org>Sent: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:03:19 +1000Subject: [TruthTalk] Doubting your salvation ? If someone doubts that they are a believer of the gospel, because they sin, then they do not understand the gospel. The WHOLE point of the gospel, is that Christ came to save filthy vile hell-deserving sinners who will continue to sin after their conversion (their change of mind to the truth). The LAW was NEVER meant to be the grounds of someone's assurance before God. By it is the knowledge of sin. By it Christians are convicted of sin. But how do we know their is a Law? How do you know their is such a thing called sin? Where did you read that adultery is wrong, drunkenness is rebellion, and bitterness is abominable? By the Word of God. Well, doesn't the Word also say, "By His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many" and "HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES" (Isa53). So if you have the knowledge of Christ, you are justified. If you believe that Christ was a ransom for many, your iniquities are as far as west is from east. How can you doubt? How can you doubt God? He can't lie. He knows everything. And He says that ALL who believe in Christ ARE no pause ... they ARE JUSTIFIED from ALL THINGS that they could not be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39). To doubt His testimony is to spit in his face (so to speak), call Him a Liar, and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Recently, someone tried to tell me that the NT Hebrew Christians doubted their salvation, because they were wondering whether or not Christ had atoned for their wicked Judaism prior to their conversions. Now, I agree that converted Jews would have been convicted of the apostasy of their past Judaism. And this conviction arose from the Bible. The believing Jews in Rome would have been convicted by Romans 10. Here, God judges Israel apostate. He basically says Israel is full of Pharisees and hypocrites IGNORANT of the righteousness of God. But does God stop there, leaving all the Jews dead in their sins? Without faith, without hope, without God in the world? No.
[TruthTalk] Judging by Doctrine
Hi Izzy, I agree with the first half of what you said. Believers are commanded to separate from unbelievers, and not to speak peace to them (2 John 9). And when we say we are to judge by "fruit", we mean doctrine. If you look at the context of Christ speaking in Matthew 12... 33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by the fruit.34 Offspring of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. ...Notice, it's what the Pharisees SAID that made Christ declare them to be wicked. Likewise, elsewhere, God says "to the Law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20). So even if a person seems "kind" and "loving", if they say things that contradict God, then they are bringing forth corrupt fruit. Andrew Bain Sydney, Australia http://www.xanga.com/andrew_c_bain - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:26 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Doubting your salvation ? Welcome to TruthTalk, Andrew of Australia. To balance your presentation I might add that we are to judge whether someone is really believing Gods gospel by their fruit, and that Jesus came as a Jew because only the Jews knew God and His Word at all. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew C. BainSent: Monday, October 03, 2005 2:03 AMTo: TruthTalkSubject: [TruthTalk] Doubting your salvation ? If someone doubts that they are a believer of the gospel, because they sin, then they do not understand the gospel. The WHOLE point of the gospel, is that Christ came to save filthy vile hell-deserving sinners who will continue to sin after their conversion (their change of mind to the truth). The LAW was NEVER meant to be the grounds of someone's assurance before God. By it is the knowledge of sin. By it Christians are convicted of sin. But how do we know their is a Law? How do you know their is such a thing called sin? Where did you read that adultery is wrong, drunkenness is rebellion, and bitterness is abominable? By the Word of God. Well, doesn't the Word also say, "By His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many" and "HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES" (Isa53). So if you have the knowledge of Christ, you are justified. If you believe that Christ was a ransom for many, your iniquities are as far as west is from east. How can you doubt? How can you doubt God? He can't lie. He knows everything. And He says that ALL who believe in Christ ARE no pause ... they ARE JUSTIFIED from ALL THINGS that they could not be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39). To doubt His testimony is to spit in his face (so to speak), call Him a Liar, and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Recently, someone tried to tell me that the NT Hebrew Christians doubted their salvation, because they were wondering whether or not Christ had atoned for their wicked Judaism prior to their conversions. Now, I agree that converted Jews would have been convicted of the apostasy of their past Judaism. And this conviction arose from the Bible. The believing Jews in Rome would have been convicted by Romans 10. Here, God judges Israel apostate. He basically says Israel is full of Pharisees and hypocrites IGNORANT of the righteousness of God. But does God stop there, leaving all the Jews dead in their sins? Without faith, without hope, without God in the world? No. God never sends someone the Law without the Gospel. And imagine one converted Jew -- who we'll call Yechezkel -- reading Romans 10. Yechezkel would have been reminded that when he was an apostate Jew, he had NOT been "submitted to the righteousness of God" and that he had been "ignorant of the righteousness of God". Yechezkel have would be convicted that he had been an Atheist, with NO knowledge or understanding of God (Romans 10:2). He had been BLIND. In Satan's grip. Dead in sins. Anti-Christian. A God-hater. A liar against God. A blasphemer against the Holy Spirit. But this was all past for Yechezkel. He now believed that Jesus FULFILLED the prophecies of Old. He know believed that Christ was the END of the Law for righteousness. God had revealed to Yechezkel (by the Spirit testifying to the Word) that Christ fulfilled and magnified the Law for EVERYONE -- ALL those -- who have believed, do believe, and will believe. And only those who believe and are sure that He is the Christ, have His righteousness in their account. God condemns doubters as lost. Romans 10:6: Do not say in your heart, Who will go int
[TruthTalk] Doubting your salvation ?
If someone doubts that they are a believer of the gospel, because they sin, then they do not understand the gospel. The WHOLE point of the gospel, is that Christ came to save filthy vile hell-deserving sinners who will continue to sin after their conversion (their change of mind to the truth). The LAW was NEVER meant to be the grounds of someone's assurance before God. By it is the knowledge of sin. By it Christians are convicted of sin. But how do we know their is a Law? How do you know their is such a thing called sin? Where did you read that adultery is wrong, drunkenness is rebellion, and bitterness is abominable? By the Word of God. Well, doesn't the Word also say, "By His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many" and "HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES" (Isa53). So if you have the knowledge of Christ, you are justified. If you believe that Christ was a ransom for many, your iniquities are as far as west is from east. How can you doubt? How can you doubt God? He can't lie. He knows everything. And He says that ALL who believe in Christ ARE no pause ... they ARE JUSTIFIED from ALL THINGS that they could not be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39). To doubt His testimony is to spit in his face (so to speak), call Him a Liar, and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Recently, someone tried to tell me that the NT Hebrew Christians doubted their salvation, because they were wondering whether or not Christ had atoned for their wicked Judaism prior to their conversions. Now, I agree that converted Jews would have been convicted of the apostasy of their past Judaism. And this conviction arose from the Bible. The believing Jews in Rome would have been convicted by Romans 10. Here, God judges Israel apostate. He basically says Israel is full of Pharisees and hypocrites IGNORANT of the righteousness of God. But does God stop there, leaving all the Jews dead in their sins? Without faith, without hope, without God in the world? No. God never sends someone the Law without the Gospel. And imagine one converted Jew -- who we'll call Yechezkel -- reading Romans 10. Yechezkel would have been reminded that when he was an apostate Jew, he had NOT been "submitted to the righteousness of God" and that he had been "ignorant of the righteousness of God". Yechezkel have would be convicted that he had been an Atheist, with NO knowledge or understanding of God (Romans 10:2). He had been BLIND. In Satan's grip. Dead in sins. Anti-Christian. A God-hater. A liar against God. A blasphemer against the Holy Spirit. But this was all past for Yechezkel. He now believed that Jesus FULFILLED the prophecies of Old. He know believed that Christ was the END of the Law for righteousness. God had revealed to Yechezkel (by the Spirit testifying to the Word) that Christ fulfilled and magnified the Law for EVERYONE -- ALL those -- who have believed, do believe, and will believe. And only those who believe and are sure that He is the Christ, have His righteousness in their account. God condemns doubters as lost. Romans 10:6: Do not say in your heart, Who will go into heaven? Romans 14:23 He that doubts ... is damned. Yet, our imaginary friend Yechezkel has as much certainty that he will be heaven that Abraham is already. Yechezkel only knows both of these truths by the Word. He's never seen Abraham in heaven. But God tells him that Abraham is. And guess what? God also says that not only was Abraham justified by His faith (that is, justified by who he believed in, Christ), but so is EVERYONE who believes. Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. Andrew Bain Sydney, Australia http://hermanhoeksema.lifewithchrist.org
