RE: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
Slade wrote: It seems you are confusing terms. Manmade laws created by governments to rule over their subjects are laws we must do according to Scripture. ... Manmade rules created by the Religious Intelligencia that are given the same credence as Scripture, on the other hand, are a completely different monster. I'm not confusing terms. You separate terms because of eisigesis, but I recognize that for the Jews, there was no separation of church and state, as you seem to want to interject here. Their laws were not a completely different monster. They were presently subjugated under Roman law, but they continued their own Judaic law under Roman rule. The conflict they had was not the classic separation of church and state that we have today, but rather some considered it traitorous to give taxes to a foreign power because it was viewed as a competing government. The sabbath laws during Jesus day were as binding in a civil manner as crimes like stealing are today. Slade wrote: These rules created by the Pharisaic and the Sadducee Intelligencia that contradicted or hamstrung Scripture are the laws Yeshua fought against. That's why he made the comment, Shabbat was made for Man, and These things you should do, but you forgot the weightier things of the Law like Grace and Mercy. He was not referring to the laws of Caesar. Right, he was referring to the Torah. The apostles were breaking Torah when they plucked ears of corn, according to most any scholar's interpretation of Torah. I doubt you can find a Jew today who would not agree that their plucking corn violated Torah. Am I wrong? How do you justify plucking corn on Sabbath according to your understanding of Torah? David Miller wrote: First, we must understand that most traffic violations are not crimes. They are civil infractions. It would be illegal for the authorities to punish you with incarceration or other penalties that are used for crimes. Slade wrote: I don't intend to be rude, but so what? It's a matter of semantics. Would you believe if I told you It was a simple affair... it's not like it was adultery or anything? Studying the semantics in this case might help you understand the relationship between crimes in the eyes of men and sins in the eyes of God. Unless we understand this distinction, we will likely condemn the guiltless, like the Pharisees did of the apostles who plucked corn on Shabbat, and like some here condemn others to hell for slipping a few mph over the speed limit. The simple affair thing doesn't work because that is still a sin. A more proper analogy would be dropping your car keys, over-cooking or under-cooking the meal, putting not quite enough sugar in your ice tea, not knowing the correct answer to a question, etc. Some people want to make these things sins that damn us to hell for all eternity. Slade wrote: By the way, when you exceed the speed limit someone is harmed... you, because you are allowing sin to enter your life and that is interfering with your communion with the Almighty. You are begging the question here. You are arguing a tautology. The question is whether or not it is sin, so you can't accept that conclusion to make your case. If it were not a sin, then no harm has been done to anyone. I would say that an action which harms either God, yourself, or your neighbor, is a sin, and if none of these are harmed in any way, then it is not sin. Slade wrote: Civil crime is not the issue here. I am trying to keep the focus on how YHVH sees things. And I'm trying to help you see sin the way God sees sin. Man was created in God's image, and man has been anointed to function in government as his minister. Therefore, when we see men creating laws against sin, calling it a crime, we understand the motivation that YHWH has for his Torah. Why did YHWH prohibit stealing and murder? For the same reason that governments make it a crime. Seeing this overlap will help us understand God's moral government and the reasons for his law. Slade wrote: ... our God has said we must obey our nation's laws otherwise we are sinning before YHVH and He will remember our sins come Judgment Day. But you conveniently ignore the Mat. 12 passage and other examples of Scripture that show righteous men going against their nation's laws without sinning. I'm not saying that we ought not be subject to our nation's laws; I'm just trying to point out that it is not necessarily a sin in God's eyes to violate certain laws. Slade wrote: Therefore, I do not have a problem with exceptions existing in the manmade laws of civil government. Exceptions exist in the Torah of YHVH as well ... Good. So let me ask you a question about the apostle's plucking corn. If neither Jesus nor anyone else gave any reason why it might be lawful for them to pluck corn on sabbath, would they still have been guiltless? In other words, does a person have to be able to articulate
Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
David, again you are not being honest here. Here alone is proof you are not perfect. I don't know of any Christian on this earth that teaches the doctrine that not putting enough sugar in your tea is a sin that will send you to hell. David, David, you are not coming clean. I am pointing out your sin here. A more proper analogy would be dropping your car keys, over-cooking or under-cooking the meal, putting not quite enough sugar in your ice tea, not knowing the correct answer to a question, etc. Some people want to make these things sins that damn us to hell for all eternity.
RE: [TruthTalk]speeding is not sin?
Slade, What if the authority is an evildoer who punishes tortures the righteous, like Saddam Hussein? Izzy Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers
Re: [TruthTalk]speeding is not sin?
Count it all joy? Do not hit the REPLY button when responding to this email. Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] directly. My hotmail account is used exclusively for out-going email. Thank you. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 02 April, 2003 06:13 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]speeding is not sin? Slade, What if the authority is an evildoer who punishes tortures the righteous, like Saddam Hussein? Izzy Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers
RE: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
Slade wrote: For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following (Romans 13). I'm not sure if you are directing this toward me or not, but I'm responding because I feel that I might not be understood on this subject. This speeding subject is a very good one to help us distinguish between the written word / being legalistic and the living word / being led of the Spirit. I hope you make an effort to grasp what I am teaching on this subject. First, we must understand that most traffic violations are not crimes. They are civil infractions. It would be illegal for the authorities to punish you with incarceration or other penalties that are used for crimes. A fine is the most that can be imposed. Ask yourself why our authorities do not consider it a crime. Note that some traffic violations are crimes, such as reckless driving, but simply exceeding the speed limit is not a crime, unless it endangers someone when you are doing it. Second, try to see the relationship between sin and crime. Sin is something that damages someone else, either your neighbor or God. For example, sins are things like stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry, taking the Lord's name in vain. Civil crimes are generally those actions which damage your neighbor or yourself. In our society, we don't have crimes against God much anymore. Therefore, crimes are things like stealing and murder. Are you starting to see the overlap here? Third, I believe that the traffic laws need to be followed. They maintain order in our society and prevent sin. They prevent damage from happening. For example, if someone runs their car into another person's car, they have sinned against that person. Stop signs, traffic lights, and speed limits help prevent these sins from happening. I do not own a radar detector, nor do I exceed the speed limit because nobody is getting hurt by it. I accept whatever the rules that the authorities have put into place, and I submit myself to these rules. Fourth, understand that there are exceptions to speeding laws. If you were bringing someone to the hospital in an emergency, and a policeman pulled you over, he would not write you a speeding ticket. He would give you a police escort and help you speed safely to the hospital. The fact that such exceptions exist tells you that the laws are not precise enough to define true righteousness in every situation. Police exercise a certain level of judgment when they enforce traffic rules, because the rules are meant to promote safety. The goal of what the rules are meant to accomplish is what is in sight, not the idea that the rule must be followed at all costs. A legalist might think it immaterial that police officers exercise some level of judgment, but I think his mind is in the wrong place if that is the case. He is like the Pharisees always accusing Jesus and not being able to judge righteous judgment. We ought to be able to see the overall good and right in any situation and not be dependent upon written rules and regulations. I'm not saying that written laws are not needed, but they only serve as a guideline to help us find our way, until we are able to make good judgments ourselves about right and wrong. Some people in this category may find themselves being put in positions of authority to create these laws themselves, as part of our legislature. The point that I was trying to make before was that only a legalist would call it a sin for someone to slip over the speed limit accidentally for a few seconds. Why? Because he is concerned with what is written and abiding by what is written. Clearly, the traffic law has been violated if we take this perspective. I brought up Matthew 12 to show how Jesus's apostles also violated laws in this technical way, but Jesus said that the Torah scholars who pointed this out had condemned the guiltless. Therefore, Jesus reveals to us a righteousness that is greater than the Torah. It is this kind of righteousness that we need to grab a hold of, because it is what distinguishes the righteousness that comes through Christ from the righteousness that comes from observing Torah. This kind of righteousness is scary to some people, because it sounds liberal, but when we find that the righteousness that comes through Christ exceeds the righteousness of the letter of the law, and that those who are righteous through Christ fulfill the righteousness that the law points to, then we become confident that this is not some fake righteousness, but righteousness in deed and in truth. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
Just for clarification. I was told by a policeman that is is against the law for an ambulance to speed or run a red light. They are required to follow the same laws as anyone else. Fourth, understand that there are exceptions to speeding laws. If you were bringing someone to the hospital in an emergency, and a policeman pulled you over, he would not write you a speeding ticket. He would give you a police escort and help you speed safely to the hospital.
[TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following. Remember, just because an enforcer of the law does not tag you when you just barely break a law, doesnt mean it's not breaking the law. You still break the law and you offend the Most High God in the process. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and God establishes those who exist. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not causes of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (Romans 13:1-5)
Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
Oops, I forgot about this part... Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the King (1 Kefa/Peter 2:13-17) -- slade - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 22:12 Subject: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin? For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following. Remember, just because an enforcer of the law does not tag you when you just barely break a law, doesnt mean it's not breaking the law. You still break the law and you offend the Most High God in the process. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and God establishes those who exist. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not causes of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (Romans 13:1-5)
Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
\o/ !HALALUYah! \o/ Greetings Slade in the Matchless NameofYahShua!! I dug this one out of my archives that someone submitted on another list about four years ago ... (1st)Going over the posted speed limit is not necessarily breaking any 'law'. 'Speeding' is simply an 'infraction' of the code of the state. That is, if one makes the decision to go over the posted limit that person makes a choice willingly, if caught by the police, to pay dues or fines for the infraction of a contract. The infraction of the contract, is the one when he takes a state issued drivers license he agrees to abid by the code of said state, and by extension the code of another state in which he wishes to travel. So speeding is the breaking of a contract and getting caught, the penality is a fine. (2nd)A speed limit in and of itself is an unjust tax. That is a tax upon ones time. In effect it is an act of theft. (3rd)In order for there to be a 'law' against something there needs to be an injured party or should be at least. The state can not be an injured party in such an act, only as it is breaking the aforementioned contract. Same way as when one comes to a red light in the middle of the night out on the open road and no other vehicles in sight for as far as one can see. Please find me the victim or injured party for stoping and then proceeding through the light. The only victim is the one that sits and waits for the green light (a slave or one in servitude if you will) it is an undue tax upon their time, another act of theft. (4th)There is no reason to enter into the contract mentioned above, as freedom of travel is a right not a privilage. Only in a police state would one be denied the freedom of travel. This idea that driving is a privilage can only come from people being dumbed down in our public education system. Ya see the legal definition of a license grants permision to one to do that which would otherwise be unlawful. Traveling the last time I knew was not something that is unlawful. Neither is the owning of property to do so and than using it for said purpose. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, Chris - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04/01/2003 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin? Oops, I forgot about this part... Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the King (1 Kefa/Peter 2:13-17) -- slade - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 22:12 Subject: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin? For those of you who think you can speed and not be committing sin, read the following. Remember, just because an enforcer of the law does not tag you when you just barely break a law, doesnt mean it's not breaking the law. You still break the law and you offend the Most High God in the process. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and God establishes those who exist. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not causes of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. (Romans 13:1-5)
