Re: [TruthTalk] the fall and the fig leaf
This is all welll and good -- as long as there remains the caveat that righteousness does not come by the law. I believe that "law" is that standard by which one is judged - be it traffic code criminal code. Judgment and punishment are joined at the hip by law. The Old "Standard of Judgment," given at Sinai and called The Law of Moses, was abolished in Christ. He has become the New Standard of Judgment. And we are judged by the Father as He looks to our positioning in (eis) Him. CHRIST IS THAT STANDARD BY WHICH WE ARE JUDGED - HE IS THE NEW LAW. There is therefore now no condemnation (Jere 31:34, Romans 8:1) for those who are in Christ (NASV). The law is critical as a guide but our compliance to it does not determine our eternal destiny nor is it that which is responsible for our salvation from the carnal self. It only gives us de finition. There is sin that we commit and there is sin we possess. That first letter of John is about both and to fail in this opinion is to miss the whole point of that letter. Romans 3:23 speaks of both concerns, as well, when it speaks of "having sinned" (past tense) and "are falling short of the glory" (present tense.) One has to do with the event of sin, over which we have some control. The other speaks of our sinful nature and is more responsible for the separation that drove Christ to the cross --- on our behalf---than any other single considertion. Guess what folks !! The lights just went on about this "fall of man" thingy. I don't even know what I am about to write specifically -- but I do "know." So lets see how I spell it out. I am more than curious !! The Garden of Eden -- what happened there that got the Two expelled? "Simple, John -- they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." So says those who do not closely read the biblical account. NOT TRUE. Not true at all. Look to Gen 3:22-24. They are driven out because to leave them alone would be to give them continued access to life in the Garden, here on earth, living beyond the threat of death while, at the same time, responding to this knowledge as finite man rather than as the Divine. It was not the event but the knowing that was more the problem, was it not? In the closing verses to Gen 3 -- does the author even refer to the sin event? Eating versus knowing. And I mean "knowing in the biblical sense" :-) . I do. The event&n bsp;was devasting because it opened the door to the intimacies of knowing good and evil. In this "knowing" exists not only the event of sin, but its addiction (and so much more.) And so "we have sinned" and "we are falling short of the glory of God Himself." Death, in the Garden account, is the natural consequence of .the sin (?) ... NO but of the knowing of good and evil !! The created nature of man included the ability to make choices -- before that choice included the knowing of good and evil. And afterwards? Man simply will not respond well to the intamies of this knowledge and so he is driven from the tree of life and the garden in which it stood. AND he continues in this knowing -- does he not -- while, at the same time, hidding it from others, even God -- -- and so we have the history of man before the Incarantion. Adam and Eve do not throw down their fig leaves when they are expelled from the garden, do they ? !! In Romans 3:23 - the past sins are not the problem so much as is the "falling short." There is me and the fig leaf , here AND God and my fellow man there. So I am encouraged to "keep on confessing" (linear activity) and he will keep on cleasing . There is ALWAYS a secretive aspect to sin. After we have committed the act - we hide it from others, even if just for a second. And just before we sin? WE JUSTIFY the ensuing action. In this process -- from justification to the false security of the fig leaf -- we find ourselves standing before God defiled. SIN IS NEVER JUST AN EVENT, is it? For a moment in time or for years and years -- all that is sin or makes sin possible is a part of our equation. Philosophers have remarked that we are what we know. With Adam and Eve, the ability to choose was always there. The personal effects of that choosing was not. THAT IS THE RESULT OF THE FALL. (?) Anyway -- I have to go think about this for a while. See ya ..EXCITEMENT !! jd __ That is correct, John. The law gives details so that we can know what love is and what love is not. For example, some people say adultery is love. Do you know how many times I have heard that excuse? "They are in love" Well, the law says, no, they are not in love. They are in lust and they have broken their vows and
Re: [TruthTalk] the fall and the fig leaf
You sound like a follower of Bill Taylor JD; positioning in eis?? - Lands sakes!! what next?? Christ is not a NEW LAW. In fact there is NO NEW LAW. There is nothing new under the sun and God has never ever changed His character or His standards; they are the same now as they were back then. Surprise!! A&E were driven out of the garden because good and evil, light and darkness, life and death can not coexist in harmony and peace ... This was obvious to people in the last century JD. Where have you been?? "When wheat and tares compromise it is the wheat that suffers. Light and darkness, right and wrong, good and evil, truth and error are incompatibles, and when they compromise it is the light - the right - the good and the truth that are damaged" W. Graham Scroggie born 1877 On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:12:21 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is all welll and good -- as long as there remains the caveat that righteousness does not come by the law. I believe that "law" is that standard by which one is judged - be it traffic code criminal code. Judgment and punishment are joined at the hip by law. The Old "Standard of Judgment," given at Sinai and called The Law of Moses, was abolished in Christ. He has become the New Standard of Judgment. And we are judged by the Father as He looks to our positioning in (eis) Him. CHRIST IS THAT STANDARD BY WHICH WE ARE JUDGED - HE IS THE NEW LAW. There is therefore now no condemnation (Jere 31:34, Romans 8:1) for those who are in Christ (NASV). The law is critical as a guide but our compliance to it does not determine our eternal destiny nor is it that which is responsible for our salvation from the carnal self. It only gives us de finition. There is sin that we commit and there is sin we possess. That first letter of John is about both and to fail in this opinion is to miss the whole point of that letter. Romans 3:23 speaks of both concerns, as well, when it speaks of "having sinned" (past tense) and "are falling short of the glory" (present tense.) One has to do with the event of sin, over which we have some control. The other speaks of our sinful nature and is more responsible for the separation that drove Christ to the cross --- on our behalf---than any other single considertion. Guess what folks !! The lights just went on about this "fall of man" thingy. I don't even know what I am about to write specifically -- but I do "know." So lets see how I spell it out. I am more than curious !! The Garden of Eden -- what happened there that got the Two expelled? "Simple, John -- they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." So says those who do not closely read the biblical account. NOT TRUE. Not true at all. Look to Gen 3:22-24. They are driven out because to leave them alone would be to give them continued access to life in the Garden, here on earth, living beyond the threat of death while, at the same time, responding to this knowledge as finite man rather than as the Divine. It was not the event but the knowing that was more the problem, was it not? In the closing verses to Gen 3 -- does the author even refer to the sin event? Eating versus knowing. And I mean "knowing in the biblical sense" :-) . I do. The event&n bsp;was devasting because it opened the door to the intimacies of knowing good and evil. In this "knowing" exists not only the event of sin, but its addiction (and so much more.) And so "we have sinned" and "we are falling short of the glory of God Himself." Death, in the Garden account, is the natural consequence of .the sin (?) ... NO but of the knowing of good and evil !! The created nature of man included the ability to make choices -- before that choice included the knowing of good and evil. And afterwards? Man simply will not respond well to the intamies of this knowledge and so he is driven from the tree of life and the garden in which it stood. AND he continues in this knowing -- does he not -- while, at the same time, hidding it from others, even God -- -- and so we have the history of man before the Incarantion. Adam and Eve do not throw down their fig leaves when they are expelled from the garden, do they ? !! In Romans 3:23 - the past sins are not the problem so much as is the "falling short." There is me and the fig leaf , here AND God and my fellow man there. So I am encouraged to "keep on confessing" (linear activity) and he will keep on cleasing . There is ALWAYS a secretive aspect to sin. After we have committed the act - we hide it from others, even if just for a seco
Re: [TruthTalk] the fall and the fig leaf
I have only one comment to your comments below. -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You sound like a follower of Bill Taylor JD; positioning in eis?? - Lands sakes!! what next?? Christ is not a NEW LAW. In fact there is NO NEW LAW. There is nothing new under the sun and God has never ever changed His character or His standards; they are the same now as they were back then. Surprise!! A&E were driven out of the garden because good and evil, light and darkness, life and death can not coexist in harmony and peace ... This was obvious to people in the last century JD. Where have you been?? Reading Gen 3:22-24 !! "When wheat and tares compromise it is the wheat that suffers. Light and darkness, right and wrong, good and evil, truth and error are incompatibles, and when they compromise it is the light - the right - the good and the truth that are damaged" W. Graham Scroggie born 1877 On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:12:21 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is all welll and good -- as long as there remains the caveat that righteousness does not come by the law. I believe that "law" is that standard by which one is judged - be it traffic code criminal code. Judgment and punishment are joined at the hip by law. The Old "Standard of Judgment," given at Sinai and called The Law of Moses, was abolished in Christ. He has become the New Standard of Judgment. And we are judged by the Father as He looks to our positioning in (eis) Him. CHRIST IS THAT STANDARD BY WHICH WE ARE JUDGED - HE IS THE NEW LAW. There is therefore now no condemnation (Jere 31:34, Romans 8:1) for those who are in Christ (NASV). The law is critical as a guide but our compliance to it does not determine our eternal destiny nor is it that which is responsible for our salvation from the carnal self . It only gives us de finition. There is sin that we commit and there is sin we possess. That first letter of John is about both and to fail in this opinion is to miss the whole point of that letter. Romans 3:23 speaks of both concerns, as well, when it speaks of "having sinned" (past tense) and "are falling short of the glory" (present tense.) One has to do with the event of sin, over which we have some control. The other speaks of our sinful nature and is more responsible for the separation that drove Christ to the cross --- on our behalf---than any other single considertion. Guess what folks !! The lights just went on about this "fall of man" thingy. I don't even know what I am about to write specifically -- but I do "know." So lets see how I spell it out. I am more than curious !! The Garden of Eden -- what happened there that got the Two expelled? "Simple, John -- they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." So says those who do not closely read the biblical account. NOT TRUE. Not true at all. Look to Gen 3:22-24. They are driven out because to leave them alone would be to give them continued access to life in the Garden, here on earth, living beyond the threat of death while, at the same time, responding to this knowledge as finite man rather than as the Divine. It was not the event but the knowing that was more the problem, was it not? In the closing verses to Gen 3 -- does the author even refer to the sin event? Eating versus knowing. And I mean "knowing in the biblical sense" :-) . &nb sp; I do. The event&n bsp;was devasting because it opened the door to the intimacies of knowing good and evil. In this "knowing" exists not only the event of sin, but its addiction (and so much more.) And so "we have sinned" and "we are falling short of the glory of God Himself." Death, in the Garden account, is the natural consequence of .the sin (?) ... NO . but of the knowing of good and evil !! The created nature of man included the ability to make choices -- before that choice included the knowing of good and evil. And afterwards? Man simply will not respond well to the intamies of this knowledge and so he is driven from the tree of life and the garden in which it stood. AND he continues in this knowing -- does he not -- while, at the same time, hidding i t from others, even God -- -- and so we have the history of man before the Incarantion. Adam and Eve do not throw down their fig leaves when they are expelled from the garden, do they ? !! In Romans 3:23 - the past sins are not the problem so much as is the "falling short." There is me and the fig leaf , here AND God and my fellow man there. So I am encouraged to "keep on confessing" (linear activity) and he will keep on cleasing . There is ALWAYS a secretive aspect to sin. After we have committed the act - we hide it from others, even if just for a second. And just before we sin? WE JUSTIFY the e
