Re: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Iz:Lighten up! I'da thunk that trailer trash (talk) woulda bin right up your flag wavin' alley. You folks don't seem to mind doing hatchet jobs on fellow believers who are otherwise politically aligned. The charicatures you occasionally offer up are deplorable. I suppose it all depends who's oxe.eh? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 21, 2004 15:47 Subject: RE: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? Lance wrote: Iz:Amen brother Singh. I've read a good deal by him. Izzy responds: Lance, That is good: finally something upon which we can agree. Perhaps Brother Singh can help you to have a more Christ-like attitude than what you have shown below. In the Name of the Lord I call upon you to repent of your pride so that you will not be judged for it. (Izzy)If I may translate: The parables are the Gospel for Dummies who dont get it. (Lance) 1. Are you self-identifying? As I listen to some of you flag-waving nut cases I cannot help but notice what political bondage you are in. biblicist/fundamentalist (read angry) Even a smart mouth like myself doesn't appreciate ignorance from a self-professed 'mature' believer. So does Clarence Thomas for starters. But, I suspect that high court considerations are beyond you backwoods, redneck conservative types. I know that 'scope' is tough for you Limbaughites. Iz:Be a good 'wifey' and, ask your husband. I think you said he had an education eh? Iz:Go back to crocheting where you can do more good. Your poor brain's overloaded. Jt:I don't expect for you to be able to understand this nor, your newfound friend, Iz. Jt:What's this 'blood' fettish thing ya got goin on JT? No. You inhabit 'wrong city' on this issue. He is truly, completely one of us. I Corinthians 1: 18 For the word of the cross is (35) foolishness to (36) those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is (37) the power of God. 19 For it is written, "(38) I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 (39) Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of (40) this age? Has not God (41) made foolish the wisdom of (42) the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God (43) the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, (44) God was well-pleased through the (45) foolishness of the message preached to (46) save those who believe. 22 For indeed (47) Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach [3] (48) Christ crucified, (49) to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles (50) foolishness, 24 but to those who are (51) the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (52) the power of God and (53) the wisdom of God. 25 Because the (54) foolishness of God is wiser than men, and (55) the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your (56) calling, brethren, that there were (57) not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but (58) God has chosen the foolish things of (59) the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of (60) the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of (61) the world and the despised God has chosen, (62) the things that are not, so that He may (63) nullify the things that are, 29 so that (64) no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in (65) Christ Jesus, who became to us (66) wisdom from God, and (67) righteousness and (68) sanctification, and (69) redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "(70) LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
RE: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? Lance wrote: Iz:Amen brother Singh. I've read a good deal by him. Izzy responds: Lance, That is good: finally something upon which we can agree. Perhaps Brother Singh can help you to have a more Christ-like attitude than what you have shown below. In the Name of the Lord I call upon you to repent of your pride so that you will not be judged for it. (Izzy)If I may translate: The parables are the “Gospel for Dummies” who don’t get it. (Lance) 1. Are you self-identifying? As I listen to some of you flag-waving nut cases I cannot help but notice what political bondage you are in. biblicist/fundamentalist (read angry) Even a smart mouth like myself doesn't appreciate ignorance from a self-professed 'mature' believer. So does Clarence Thomas for starters. But, I suspect that high court considerations are beyond you backwoods, redneck conservative types. I know that 'scope' is tough for you Limbaughites. Iz:Be a good 'wifey' and, ask your husband. I think you said he had an education eh? Iz:Go back to crocheting where you can do more good. Your poor brain's overloaded. Jt:I don't expect for you to be able to understand this nor, your newfound friend, Iz. Jt:What's this 'blood' fettish thing ya got goin on JT? No. You inhabit 'wrong city' on this issue. He is truly, completely one of us. I Corinthians 1: 18 For the word of the cross is (35) foolishness to (36) those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is (37) the power of God. 19 For it is written, "(38) I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 (39) Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of (40) this age? Has not God (41) made foolish the wisdom of (42) the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God (43) the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, (44) God was well-pleased through the (45) foolishness of the message preached to (46) save those who believe. 22 For indeed (47) Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach [3] (48) Christ crucified, (49) to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles (50) foolishness, 24 but to those who are (51) the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (52) the power of God and (53) the wisdom of God. 25 Because the (54) foolishness of God is wiser than men, and (55) the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your (56) calling, brethren, that there were (57) not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but (58) God has chosen the foolish things of (59) the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of (60) the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of (61) the world and the despised God has chosen, (62) the things that are not, so that He may (63) nullify the things that are, 29 so that (64) no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in (65) Christ Jesus, who became to us (66) wisdom from God, and (67) righteousness and (68) sanctification, and (69) redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "(70) LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Iz:Amen brother Singh. I've read a good deal by him. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 21, 2004 15:10 Subject: RE: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? Izzy provides some comments regarding philosophers from a godly Believer by the name of Sundar Singh: He thanked God that he had been enabled to go to the West. Before he went, he thought that there must be something in Modernist theories, otherwise so many men would not write so many books. Besides, Christianity had been in force for so many centuries in the West. But when he discovered how busy these scholars were and how much of their knowledge was second-hand and not the fruit of their experience with Christ, he announced that all their speculations would not move him an inch from his faith. Trying to understand spiritual truth through the intellect means increase of self. Men search for God and find Him unknowable... But: He is known through the heart, not through philosophy. The only way for us to understand the infinite God is by becoming infinite and that is impossible. He must become finite and He is so in Jesus." "How are we to deal with people who are utterly indifferent to religion?"He replied, "God Himself can do nothing with such people so what can you and I do? Orthodox and strict Hindus and Mohammedans are better than many of the reformed liberals. The latter are stones in their own community and if they come over into the Christian Church they will be stones there too. Far better a man who is strict in the observance of his own religion." "We are called to work for Him. Are we misled by Modernists and Higher Criticism? Is our faith shaken? If we believe that Christ was merely a great man then we have no message for the world. We will have to jump down into Hell to hide ourselves for every shame. We are to be fishers of men and are we still fishermen? The angels would have been glad to preach the Gospel in this world for five minutes, and that would have been enough. But the privilege is not granted to them. Only saved sinners can preach the Gospel." "Christianity [spiritual regeneration through Jesus Christ] is the only religion which is universal." http://www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/files/introduction.html jt: I have a question Lance. Does the truth of God's Word mean nothing at all to you unless validated by your favorite theologian? Do you spend any of your time meditating on what God says?
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Jt:Why would I when I have you to read? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 21, 2004 13:29 Subject: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jt:May I (laughingly) suggest that you start your own church? We then, will all fall (statically) in line behind you (You, of course being statically in line with all the truth of Scripture). Problem solved eh? God luv ya Judy! You are one ultra-certain lady. jt: I have a question Lance. Does the truth of God's Word mean nothing at all to you unless validated by your favorite theologian? Do you spend any of your time meditating on what God says? From: Judy Taylor John writes: Let me take at shot at this one. If I am right, then Lance's comment is not veiled in any kind of mystery. A "dynamic understanding of the Nature of God and His Gospel" tells me that Lance's view is one that is in flux, changing, expanding, growing. The use of the wording "dynamic understanding" would demand a difference of position and opinion among believers and if this dynamic is of God, a differenc of opinion and teaching will exist within the assembly of Saints. We should expect differences. They are of God and are not necessarily evil or even undesirable. A static positioning is a closed system, fully understandable by all of (I assume) an honest heart. Those with this understanding will argue that we can AND MUST be of the same mind and speak the same things on all points of import within the Gospel of Christ.How did I do? Smitty jt: Has Lance given you a grade yet John. How did you do? I know you are weighing a lot of things right now. This dynamic understanding was neither taught nor promoted by the writers of the NT. In fact they taught "static understanding" exclusively. You can find it in all of the following: 1 Corinthians 1:10, 2 Corinthians 13:11, 1 Peter 3:8, 1 Peter 4:1, Romans 12:16-18, Philippians 2:2. The reason we must be of the same mind and speak the same thing is that we should have the "mind of Christ" 1 Corinthians 2:16. which mind is the "same yesterday, today, and forever" which sounds pretty static to me. This is the ONLY way that we will grow into Him in all things. jt From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Jt:I'm drawing a distinction between a dynamic understanding of the Nature of God and God's Gospel and a static understanding (yours, I believe). Read the three points again with that in mind then, tell me your understanding. thanks It might be better if you explain your definition of dynamic vs static. Are you saying that your gospel has signs following, that is, thesigns Jesus spoke of (the works He did and greater); my understanding of a dynamic gospel is one where the power of God is evident.Static is a form of godliness that denies the power. I doubt we are 'as they say' on the same page. jt
RE: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Izzy provides some comments regarding philosophers from a godly Believer by the name of Sundar Singh: “He thanked God that he had been enabled to go to the West. Before he went, he thought that there must be something in Modernist theories, otherwise so many men would not write so many books. Besides, Christianity had been in force for so many centuries in the West. But when he discovered how busy these scholars were and how much of their knowledge was second-hand and not the fruit of their experience with Christ, he announced that all their speculations would not move him an inch from his faith.” “Trying to understand spiritual truth through the intellect means increase of self. Men search for God and find Him unknowable... But: He is known through the heart, not through philosophy. The only way for us to understand the infinite God is by becoming infinite and that is impossible. He must become finite and He is so in Jesus." "How are we to deal with people who are utterly indifferent to religion?" He replied, "God Himself can do nothing with such people so what can you and I do? Orthodox and strict Hindus and Mohammedans are better than many of the reformed liberals. The latter are stones in their own community and if they come over into the Christian Church they will be stones there too. Far better a man who is strict in the observance of his own religion." "We are called to work for Him. Are we misled by Modernists and Higher Criticism? Is our faith shaken? If we believe that Christ was merely a great man then we have no message for the world. We will have to jump down into Hell to hide ourselves for every shame. We are to be fishers of men and are we still fishermen? The angels would have been glad to preach the Gospel in this world for five minutes, and that would have been enough. But the privilege is not granted to them. Only saved sinners can preach the Gospel." "Christianity [spiritual regeneration through Jesus Christ] is the only religion which is universal." http://www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/files/introduction.html jt: I have a question Lance. Does the truth of God's Word mean nothing at all to you unless validated by your favorite theologian? Do you spend any of your time meditating on what God says?
Re: RE: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Jt:We do indeed! Want an autographed copy? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 21, 2004 14:35 Subject: Fw: RE: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? "I am YHVH your God and I do not change (God) Of course God has 'changed'. (Lance) jt Then God's Word can not be trusted because He does not stand by it and if the Word above is wrong then maybe Jesus is not the same yesterday, today, and forever. Maybe He was not the lamb slain before the foundation of the World. Maybe the cross was one big hoax after all ... Lance do you sell your version of scripture at your Bookstore? What on earth (heaven?) has that statement got to do with mine? You are being coy are you not? Will you say back to me what you believe my meaning to have been? I (Lance, speaking for myself) will then answer. h, I guess youd better write the Lance Muir version of scripture, since obviously the one God wrote is incorrect. Izzy Of course God has 'changed' (allowing for the limitations of human language). Three things that are New even for God: 1. The Cosmos 2. The Incarnation 3. Resurrected, glorified HUMANITY ascending to the right hand of the Father where He, Jesus, continues to mediate on our behalf. This reflects a dynamic rather than a static understanding of our God. "I am YHVH your God and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already completely destroyed. Ever since the days of your ancestors you have scorned my laws and failed to obey them. Now return to me and I will return to you,' says YHVH" Malachi 3:6-7 God has not changed, so what makes anyone think His Law (Torah) has changed? I ask my question again, If you reject God's law then how do you define sin? Secondly, if you reject His law how can you embrace Yeshua? After all who is Yeshua? He is none other than God in the flesh!(John 1:1) It really saddens me to think that people are misled by teachers, preachers, etc. who have been misled by their mentors, who have been misled by their teachers, etc. for nearly 2000 years. This is very odd because I know someone will eventually throw Acts 15 at me. So I'll beat you to the punch and ask that you explain Acts 15:21. And while you're at it explain how the Pharisee of Pharisee's who studied at Gamaliel's feet would reject God's Torah when it is so plainly clear in the Bible that Shaul both understood who Yeshua is and worked so hard for the salvation of the Gentiles and the Jews. The very same Paul who not only took a Nazarite vow, but went to the Temple and paid the price for several other Nazirs to fulfill their vows. Shaul did this for what reason? To reject Torah? There ain't nobody gonna convince me that Shaul rejected Torah. His actions disprove that doctrine!! Jeff - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature Jeff Powers wrote: Lets see now, if I'm understanding this John rejects Torah. So if this is true John, What then is sin? >From my perspective, if we reject Torah then we quite naturally reject God's law and in rejecting God's Law we therefore have to reject ALL notions of sin. Without Torah, how are we to know what sin is? Something you might want to consider Jeff. There was sin and there was a penalty for sin long before Torah. Mankind left the garden with a knowledge of good and evil. Sometime later the law came, and after that, the law was fulfilled. In the meantime, no one was ever able to keep it. It was meant for a people, for a time, for a purpose. Those times are over. Now we live by faith, evidenced by love and obedience (Works).Terry
RE: RE: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Jt: check out the comic books. Iz . Lance do you sell your version of scripture at your Bookstore?
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN?
Jt:Don't be a reactionary. Just answer my question then, I'll answer yours. thanks - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 20, 2004 09:51 Subject: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] WHAT IS SIN? Do you even know what I'm talking about Lance? Obviously you've not seen the book much less read it. Why would you assume that every author I read becomes my mentor? Must be this way for you? From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jt:Nothing BECAME of sin! There you go again demonstrating reliance on the teachings of men for your understanding of Biblical Truth. Was Menninger a 'believer'? Add to a growing list (Dake, Scofield)those men whom you place in a position of priority and authority. 'Pots & kettles' once again. From: Judy Taylor This subject line is a good question. I submit that today we are for the most part ignorant about what God calls sin and it is only when we are willing to walk in the light as He is in the light that we have real fellowship with one another and this is when the blood of Jesus cleanses us so that we have peace and rest in our personal lives. Just keeping a stuff upper lip and hanging in there is not where it's at. Has anyone read the book "WHATEVER BECAME OF SIN?" by Karl Menninger, M.D. His thesis is good. He traces the demise of sin consciousness and it's effect on our culture which are not good. They are really costing us and at this point there is little difference between the world and the Church. God's people are perishing for lack of knowledge... they may go to heaven but God needs them here morehan he does there. jt From: Jeff Powers "I am YHVH your God and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already completely destroyed. Ever since the days of your ancestors you have scorned my laws and failed to obey them. Now return to me and I will return to you,' says YHVH" Malachi 3:6-7 God has not changed, so what makes anyone think His Law (Torah) has changed? I ask my question again, If you reject God's law then how do you define sin? Secondly, if you reject His law how can you embrace Yeshua? After all who is Yeshua? He is none other than God in the flesh!(John 1:1) It really saddens me to think that people are misled by teachers, preachers, etc. who have been misled by their mentors, who have been misled by their teachers, etc. for nearly 2000 years. This is very odd because I know someone will eventually throw Acts 15 at me. So I'll beat you to the punch and ask that you explain Acts 15:21. And while you're at it explain how the Pharisee of Pharisee's who studied at Gamaliel's feet would reject God's Torah when it is so plainly clear in the Bible that Shaul both understood who Yeshua is and worked so hard for the salvation of the Gentiles and the Jews. The very same Paul who not only took a Nazarite vow, but went to the Temple and paid the price for several other Nazirs to fulfill their vows. Shaul did this for what reason? To reject Torah? There ain't nobody gonna convince me that Shaul rejected Torah. His actions disprove that doctrine!! Jeff - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature Jeff Powers wrote: Lets see now, if I'm understanding this John rejects Torah. So if this is true John, What then is sin? >From my perspective, if we reject Torah then we quite naturally reject God's law and in rejecting God's Law we therefore have to reject ALL notions of sin. Without Torah, how are we to know what sin is?Something you might want to consider Jeff. There was sin and there was a penalty for sin long before Torah. Mankind left the garden with a knowledge of good and evil. Sometime later the law came, and after that, the law was fulfilled. In the meantime, no one was ever able to keep it. It was meant for a people, for a time, for a purpose. Those times are over. Now we live by faith, evidenced by love and obedience (Works).Terry
