Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E--Dave's clarifying explanation
DAVEH: Thanx Blaine. However, I am curious whether or not you disagree on any of the details, or if you would add anything to it? (And I am aware that there is much that could be added, however for the purposes of explaining the basic outline to Lance, I didn't think it would serve any purpose to get sidetracked on too many details.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice explication, Dave--I should have it printed off and give it out next time I teach a SS class-- Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 12:35:10 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. But... As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS authority said... As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. .which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression. In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows the difference between good and evil. By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their bodies of flesh and bloodby dying, which separates the spirit from the body. In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only did A&E subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also were separated from God.which we define as spiritual death. In essence, this resulted in A&E experiencing two forms of hellfirst the separation from God, and second being returned to the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation forever, if it were not for God's plan of salvation. That plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for A&E's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, A&E's in this instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why it is through his grace that we are saved...nothing we could do on our own could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us and God is ourselves. Effectively...We can either keep the commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal progression. I hope that answers your query, Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I can post an interesting perspective of the Fall th
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E--Dave's clarifying explanation
Nice explication, Dave--I should have it printed off and give it out next time I teach a SS class-- Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 12:35:10 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. But... As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS authority said...As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become..which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression. In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows the difference between good and evil. By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their bodies of flesh and bloodby dying, which separates the spirit from the body. In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only did A&E subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also were separated from God.which we define as spiritual death. In essence, this resulted in A&E experiencing two forms of hellfirst the separation from God, and second being returned to the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation forever, if it were not for God's plan of salvation. That plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for A&E's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, A&E's in this instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why it is through his grace that we are saved...nothing we could do on our own could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us and God is ourselves. Effectively...We can either keep the commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal progression. I hope that answers your query, Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I can post an interesting perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an LDS Forum.just let me know if that appeals to you.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E -- Huh, Judy ???
Somehow , I missed this. DAVEH: My apologies, Bishop. I took Judy's comment out of the context of her post of December 6, which you may have missed. I will repost it below ++ ++ ++ ++ I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us? On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:09:38 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Do you mind if I ask why this subject is so interesting to you?? DAVEH: Because the Protestant view seems rather narrow and lacks depth of understanding, as I understand it. I don't mean that to sound offensive, but rather an observation from what I've learned from asking you folks about it. Let me ask you a few questions, Judy. Do you think the Lord wanted A&E to know the difference between good and evil? And, if A&E had not transgressed, do you think they would have known the difference? Alsodo you think God created A&E while knowing that they would definitely transgress, or do you think there was a possibility that they would not transgress? Judy Taylor wrote: You have brought this up in the past on TT DaveH but it didn't last long because there is no place to go with it. By definition all anyone could come up with is their own speculation. God wasn't caught blindsided. He knew and prepared for this "BEFORE the foundation of the world" so it's too late for "shoulda, coulda, woulda" now. Do you mind if I ask why this subject is so interesting to you?? On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 18:42:09 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up with you folks? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT? We have pretty much said all that can be said about any number of subjects. jd ++ ++ ++ ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us? Somehow , I missed this. The answer above completely misses the point of both the "plan of salvation" and the account of Adam and Eve including their creation. Secondly, exactly what was the question asked by Judy? Why would the Lord want THAT for them/us? --- That ?? There is only one other consideration in her comment, so it must refer to "that" -- if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then Does anyone out there see the problem, here? Why would God want THAT (if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then ) FOR US -- WHY WOULD HE WANT ADAM AND EVE TO BE SINLESS AND SAVE US ALL THAT MISERY? And that would be a bad thing? "We" are grossly confused , here. And to think that the Holy Spirit gave Judy this thought is about to make me an ATHEIST !! jd -Original Message- From: Dave Hansen <dave@langlitz.com> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:40:04 -0800 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again. I must be missing something about your (forgive mebut let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed ? In my experience,
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E -- Huh, Judy ???
Judy wrote:I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us? Somehow , I missed this. The answer above completely misses the point of both the "plan of salvation" and the account of Adam and Eve including their creation. Secondly, exactly what was the question asked by Judy? Why would the Lord want THAT for them/us? --- That ?? There is only one other consideration in her comment, so it must refer to "that" -- if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then Does anyone out there see the problem, here? Why would God want THAT (if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then ) FOR US -- WHY WOULD HE WANT ADAM AND EVE TO BE SINLESS AND SAVE US ALL THAT MISERY? And that would be a bad thing? "We" are grossly confused , here. And to think that the Holy Spirit gave Judy this thought is about to make me an ATHEIST !! jd -Original Message-From: Dave Hansen <dave@langlitz.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:40:04 -0800Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then.DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again. I must be missing something about your (forgive mebut let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of A&E's children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from A&E, none would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that happening.zilch?!?!?! Sowhy do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspectivenot only was it expected, but it was planned. And...evidently you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was created.that it was planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I saidperhaps I'm missing someth ing about the way you understand it. Judy wrote:I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us?Terry Clifton wrote: God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring pain and death.Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective, Terry.I assume you believe that God did not want A&E to sin though, even though he knew they would. Is that correct?Terry Clifton wrote: Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.Fact two: God hates sin. Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan.It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.Dave Hansen wrote: No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussedDAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it
