Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[David Hutto]

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 3:06 AM, ALAN GAULD  wrote:
>
>
>> > If its a typical ADSL line it will be conneced to a DSLAM at
>> > the centeral office(by the telco) and  that will be shareed.
>>
>> > ADSL also loses bandwidth the further you are from the office
>
>> process has to be diversified for each customer, because it
>> all travels at the speed of light.
>
> It is diversified on the individual line leading to your house
> but it is shared from wherever it gets converted to a digital
> multiplex. That could be at the roadside cabinet or at the
> central office. At that point the data is mixed together
> using a round-robin type algorithm. The more active signals
> that are present the lower the proportion of the total bandwidth
> available to each.
>
> The speed of transmission is not really relevant (it only affects
> transit time not bandwidth) although it is as you say the
> speed of light (but not the speed of light in a vacuum, much
> lower than that) within the bearer. However within the electronics
> the signal travels more slowly - around the speed of sound - but
> fortunately for very small distances.
>
>> sometimes had a weak signal depending on the distance
>> from the consumer. This signal could be modified from the cable
>> company, so the box amplified the 'weak', but not further away,
>> signal.
>
> Its not a matter of signal strength but of signal smearing as it
> travels along the line. The digital data is sent as pulses (a great
> simplification!) but those pulses lose their shape as they travel
> along the line until eventually the electronics cannot distinguish
> one from another. The only way to improve is to send the
> pulses more widely spaced, which reduces the bandwidth,
> or to have repeater boxes which regenerate the pulses at
> regular intervals. On long distance routes, between cities, the
> telco will install repeaters but for domestic use they progressively
> reduce the bandwidth.
>
>> So this would also be a matter of what was being sent/received
>> being modified, depending on the priority (given by the ISP provider)
>> of the current DSL (or whatever connection) consumer?
>
> No, it doesn't matter what priority the comnsumer has it is down
> to the physical characteristics of the line. Telcos typically use
> copper or aluminium conductors in the local lines with paper
> or PTFE insulation and either crimped, twisted or soldered joints.
> All of these affect the transmission characteristics but the biggest
> factor is the length of the line. Its not economical to install
> repeaters in every consumer line so the bandwidth must be
> adjusted to match what the line is capable of. (This is done
> dynamically so you may even find your bandwidth varies slightly
> depending on the weather!) In practice it should be fairly stable
> and the biggest variations will be due to contention at the
> DSLAM.
>
> HTH,
>
> Alan G.
> (Who works for a telco! :-)
>
>

Thanks for taking the time to answer, and sorry for somewhat hijacking
the op's thread.
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[ALAN GAULD]

> > If its a typical ADSL line it will be conneced to a DSLAM at 
> > the centeral office(by the telco) and  that will be shareed. 
>
> > ADSL also loses bandwidth the further you are from the office 

> process has to be diversified for each customer, because it
> all travels at the speed of light. 

It is diversified on the individual line leading to your house 
but it is shared from wherever it gets converted to a digital
multiplex. That could be at the roadside cabinet or at the 
central office. At that point the data is mixed together 
using a round-robin type algorithm. The more active signals 
that are present the lower the proportion of the total bandwidth 
available to each.

The speed of transmission is not really relevant (it only affects 
transit time not bandwidth) although it is as you say the 
speed of light (but not the speed of light in a vacuum, much 
lower than that) within the bearer. However within the electronics 
the signal travels more slowly - around the speed of sound - but 
fortunately for very small distances.

> sometimes had a weak signal depending on the distance
> from the consumer. This signal could be modified from the cable
> company, so the box amplified the 'weak', but not further away,
> signal.

Its not a matter of signal strength but of signal smearing as it 
travels along the line. The digital data is sent as pulses (a great 
simplification!) but those pulses lose their shape as they travel 
along the line until eventually the electronics cannot distinguish 
one from another. The only way to improve is to send the 
pulses more widely spaced, which reduces the bandwidth, 
or to have repeater boxes which regenerate the pulses at 
regular intervals. On long distance routes, between cities, the 
telco will install repeaters but for domestic use they progressively 
reduce the bandwidth.

> So this would also be a matter of what was being sent/received 
> being modified, depending on the priority (given by the ISP provider) 
> of the current DSL (or whatever connection) consumer? 

No, it doesn't matter what priority the comnsumer has it is down 
to the physical characteristics of the line. Telcos typically use 
copper or aluminium conductors in the local lines with paper 
or PTFE insulation and either crimped, twisted or soldered joints. 
All of these affect the transmission characteristics but the biggest
factor is the length of the line. Its not economical to install 
repeaters in every consumer line so the bandwidth must be 
adjusted to match what the line is capable of. (This is done 
dynamically so you may even find your bandwidth varies slightly 
depending on the weather!) In practice it should be fairly stable
and the biggest variations will be due to contention at the 
DSLAM.

HTH,

Alan G.
(Who works for a telco! :-)

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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[David Hutto]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Alan Gauld  wrote:
> "David Hutto"  wrote
>
>> > Or if the network is shared with other users or other applications
>>
>> So, the bandwidth supplied(better question for my own ISP) is like a
>> drop cord, even with alleged T1 connections plugged in, it drop in
>> accordance with usage that exceeds the max capacity even though they
>> sell it as it's max capacity?.
>
> It depends on the access mechanism. If its a T1 link then it is a
> dedicated line for your own use and not shared by anyone - although
> the server/router its connected to at the ISP may well be!
>
> If its a typical ADSL line it will be conneced to a DSLAM at the
> centeral office(by the telco) and  that will be shareed. So a typical
> consumer line has a ratio of 50:1 users. A business line might be
> only 10:1 or 20:1. This works on the assumption that most users
> spend more time reading than downooading the content. As we
> move to streaming data sources that assumption becomes invalid
> and the DSLAM bandwidth is effectively shared.
>
> ADSL also loses bandwidth the further you are from the office so what
> is sold as an 8Mb line will rarely give more than 5-6Mb and may be
> as low as 1 or 2. But that is mostly a physical limitation on the
> copper cables used. And finally, the 'A' in ADSL stands for asymmetric
> so the upload speed it usually only a fraction of the download speed,
> often only a few hundred kilobits/sec. Even with ADSL+ (20M+) the
> upload speed is usually less than 1Mb. That means that a 1MB(yte)
> document may only take 1-2 sec to download but take 10s+ to
> upload (why sending mail is usually much slower than receiving)
>
> Alan G.
>
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But the process has to be diversified for each customer, because it
all travels at the speed of light. I recall from way back in the day,
that cable boxes sometimes had a weak signal depending on the distance
from the consumer. This signal could be modified from the cable
company, so the box amplified the 'weak', but not further away,
signal.

So this would also be a matter of what was being sent/received being
modified, depending on the priority(given by the ISP provider) of the
current DSL(or whatever connection) consumer? So I'm guessing this
would be determined on the basis of recent usage, as to the priority
of the sending or downloading, correct?
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Lie Ryan]

On 06/29/10 19:48, Richard D. Moores wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 01:06, Alan Gauld  wrote:
>> "Richard D. Moores"  wrote
>>
 You log into Gmail and your browser downloads the Gmail page;
>>>
>>> Yes, of course. But I'm always logged into Gmail.
>>
>> But it is still continually downloading. The same applies to a
>> desktop client, if you leave it running it can continually poll the
>> server, just like gmail.
> 
> Well, as I said, I found having Eudora do that was quite annoying (I'm
> afraid I've forgotten the particulars). Gmail is not. In any event,
> There are many, many reasons to choose to use Gmail over Eudora or OE
> and their ilk.

What makes you think what Eudora did and what rich web clients (e.g.
gmail's web interface) did is any different? Gmail's rich AJAX-ful web
client is almost the same as a full-fledged desktop client, except that
it runs on Javascript in a browser instead of running as native code in
the OS. BOTH do polls in intervals (or in case of IMAP with idle
extension, wait for a push event), BOTH do download headers only or
header+body only when requested, BOTH do client-side caching.

Except that a rich webmail client, due to limitation by browser
security, is inherently unable to do permanent caching; is much less
configurable for its downloading preference; and is totally
unconfigurable on polling interval.

The advantages of desktop client is configurability and its caching
mechanism is not constrained by browser security. The advantage of a
rich webmail client is tighter coupling to the backend system and
universal accessibility.

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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Alan Gauld]

"Walter Prins"  wrote

a) I sometimes use Gmail while we visit folks in South Africa who 
are still
on 56k dial-up.  Initial log-in can be a bit slow, but generally 
you'd be

surprised at how efficient/quick it is w.r.t bandwidth.


To be fair to Google, GMail is one of the best implemented web mail
systems around. If you must use web mail then I'd go with Gmail
over Yahoo for example.


the amount of mail I receive on a daily basis, using a conventional
"download then read" client on a 56k dial up link would be totally
impractical for me,


I've used a desktop client for the last 25 years, even over a 1200 
baud

dialup modem. Because it downloads in the background you rarely notice
the delays. My volumes have increased in the 30 years but only from
about 30-200 mails a day, my bandwidth OTOH has increased by
much more! :-).


b) Gmail does a lot of in-browser caching,


Sure, as I say GMail is one of the best but the cache times out and if 
you

read older mail it does download it afresh. I regularly reference mail
from a year or more ago.

c) As the web matures the trend towards web-applications being able 
to store
data locally and run off-line should increase, further improving 
bandwidth


Absolutely, but that requires the programmers to intimately understand
the impact of their internet usage. Which is the point being made by
Steven and myself. Its not a dig at Web mail per se, its the fact that
as programmers we need to understand exacvtly what is going on
over the network and its potential impact - and not just on the 
immediate

user but those users potentially sharing the network.

c) Stating the obvious but you can turn downloading of images off by 
default
in your browser, which will of course further reduce the actual 
bandwidth


I used to do that when I had Mosaic running over 9600 baud, but after
I got to 56K I turned them back on - especially when web designers 
started
sending text as graphics (to get fancy fonts) and did so without using 
alt tags!


d) Using Gmail means you don't waste bandwidth unneccesarily 
downloading
mails with big attachments (PDF files, Word files) unless you 
actually want


Most desktop clients can either only download headers and fetch the 
body
on demand, or download headers and body but leave attachments till 
later,
or download everything. On my mobile phone I go headers only, on my 
work

PC I get everything and on my home PC I get headers and text.

e) Actually having access to your email from places you wouldn't 
normally

have access to it (on holiday, at conference) is a benefit you don't
neccesarily have with a conventional client.


No, and this is where webmail is genuinely useful.
I have 6 email accounts and all of them have a webmail inteface but I 
fetch
all of them into my desktop client. But if I am on holiday and don't 
have my
PC then I use webmail to keep abreast of things. I'm not against Web 
mail,

I just recognise that its not a network efficient way to read email.

I absolutely agree about programmers having to be aware of the 
bandwidth
costs involved with every operation they do, as bandwidth isn't 
free.

However, the internet is after all, a network, and the argumentation
ostensibly against web based services (especially potentially 
relatively low
bandwidth ones like gmail) on the basis that they consume network 
bandwidth

per-se, seemed a little OTT to me.  YMMV.


I don't think anyone is arguing against these services. Cloud 
computing is
almost certainly the future. But as programmers - and this is a 
programmer's

list - we need to be aware of and understand how apps use the network
and how we can minimise the adverse impacts.

And as responsible internet users we should recognise the negative
impacts our usage habits can have on our neighbours, in much the
same way as drivers need to recognise the impact of bad driving
on other road users. Email is, as someone pointed out a relativel 
small consumer

of bandwidth, much worse would be somebody leaving a streaming video
source on auto repeat! But having said that the latest figures still 
place
text services as about 50% of all internet traffic, so every little 
helps.


--
Alan Gauld
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/


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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Alan Gauld]

"David Hutto"  wrote


> Or if the network is shared with other users or other applications

So, the bandwidth supplied(better question for my own ISP) is like a
drop cord, even with alleged T1 connections plugged in, it drop in
accordance with usage that exceeds the max capacity even though they
sell it as it's max capacity?.


It depends on the access mechanism. If its a T1 link then it is a
dedicated line for your own use and not shared by anyone - although
the server/router its connected to at the ISP may well be!

If its a typical ADSL line it will be conneced to a DSLAM at the
centeral office(by the telco) and  that will be shareed. So a typical
consumer line has a ratio of 50:1 users. A business line might be
only 10:1 or 20:1. This works on the assumption that most users
spend more time reading than downooading the content. As we
move to streaming data sources that assumption becomes invalid
and the DSLAM bandwidth is effectively shared.

ADSL also loses bandwidth the further you are from the office so what
is sold as an 8Mb line will rarely give more than 5-6Mb and may be
as low as 1 or 2. But that is mostly a physical limitation on the
copper cables used. And finally, the 'A' in ADSL stands for asymmetric
so the upload speed it usually only a fraction of the download speed,
often only a few hundred kilobits/sec. Even with ADSL+ (20M+) the
upload speed is usually less than 1Mb. That means that a 1MB(yte)
document may only take 1-2 sec to download but take 10s+ to
upload (why sending mail is usually much slower than receiving)

Alan G. 



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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 01:06, Alan Gauld  wrote:
> "Richard D. Moores"  wrote
>
>>> You log into Gmail and your browser downloads the Gmail page;
>>
>> Yes, of course. But I'm always logged into Gmail.
>
> But it is still continually downloading. The same applies to a
> desktop client, if you leave it running it can continually poll the
> server, just like gmail.

Well, as I said, I found having Eudora do that was quite annoying (I'm
afraid I've forgotten the particulars). Gmail is not. In any event,
There are many, many reasons to choose to use Gmail over Eudora or OE
and their ilk.

>> That's what I meant by "my mail is just always THERE", and because you
>> know the difference between OE and Gmail you knew what I meant,
>
> But its exactly wrong because in gmail your mail is never there.

No, I meant what Gmail shows in the inbox continually because I'm
always logged on.

> It has to be fetched each and every time you read it.

And it IS there in a usually not noticeable instant.

> In OE/Eudora/TB
> it is really there on your PC. You can read it even when offline.

If I needed to do that, I'd look up Gears. To quote Marc Tompkins in
this thread, "Gears enables offline reading [with Gmail]."

> Web mail is fantastically inefficient and a huge waste of bandwidth.

I have no reason to be concerned with bandwidth.  Much, much worse in
your book should be all those Netflix subscribers who watch a subset
of its available films online. Wouldn't it take thousands of Gmail
always-logged-on users like me to use the bandwidth of one online film
watcher? Then there are the YouTubers, etc., etc.  Sorry -- didn't
mean to be parochial -- Netflix is not available outside the U.S. -- I
just called them to check. 

> One of the big problems with the move towards "Cloud Computing"
> is the massive amount of extra bandwidth required - who is going to
> pay for it? The telcos can't afford to keep on giving unlimited bits to
> everyone, there will need to be new charging models introduced to
> make the whole thing viable. This is a very big and important issue
> and as Steven says we as programmers need to understand the wider
> implications of the programming solutions we build.

Fine.

>> Of course. Just like anything else which has to get from a Gmail
>> server to me. If text, that's a small fraction of a second for me. So
>> small that it appears to be instantaneous.  If there are images, it's
>> still a small fraction of a second, and images are usually there by
>> the time I can scroll down to them.
>
> You must have very fast broadband!

I do, but nothing special for this area.

>Images general take several
> seconds over my 2M (nominally 8M) connection (on a good day,
> often it slows to under 1M if the neighbours are watching IP TV...)

I see no noticeable neighbor effect. I'm sorry about your image
loading times. Reminds me of my dial-up days of 10+ years ago. I
continued to use a shell account as long as they were available -- a
tc shell, pine, with vi or vim as an editor, sendmail for complex mail
filters, lynx for a browser. I continued with those even after most
people were using, what, Netscape? Mosaic? Then there were all those
cool UNIX tools that some ISP's made available.

> But that is still a shared resource and even if you have high
> speed ADSL+ (20M+) it is still a performance bottleneck that
> you need to be conscious of.

No, I don't think so. Not where I am.

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[David Hutto]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:48 AM, Alan Gauld  wrote:
>
> "David Hutto"  wrote
>
>> > fundamentally different from "downloading", and those who know > that
>> > the
>> > only difference is that with streaming, the browser deletes the > video
>>
>> But this only matters if a)you're paying for it, not the boss b) that
>> there are unlimited plans available for a single monthly price, or c)
>> you have an 'egotistical'(meaning a professional ego/rep to maintain)
>> perspective on minimizing your code.
>
> Or if the network is shared with other users or other applications
> since heavy downloads slow down access for every network user.
> And if your neighbour is downloading a lot of video you will notice
> the effect on your network speed.

So, the bandwidth supplied(better question for my own ISP) is like a
drop cord, even with alleged T1 connections plugged in, it drop in
accordance with usage that exceeds the max capacity even though they
sell it as it's max capacity?.

 Sometimes I watch the wave of bandwidth and wonder, but a question
seldom asked if service is satisfactory.

>
> Remember that network speeds have become the biggest single
> factor in determining application performance nowadays - it used
> to be memory and disk speed - so we as programmers need to
> be very conscious of the impact of gratuitous downloads and
> consider caching strategies etc. We can't do a lot about other
> people streaming videos other than minimise our network requirements.
> But we should at least be conscious of how network habits affect
> other users.
>
> --
> Alan Gauld
> Author of the Learn to Program web site
> http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
>
>
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Walter Prins]

At the risk of adding more fuel to the fire, I'll simply note that

a) I sometimes use Gmail while we visit folks in South Africa who are still
on 56k dial-up.  Initial log-in can be a bit slow, but generally you'd be
surprised at how efficient/quick it is w.r.t bandwidth. (As an aside, with
the amount of mail I receive on a daily basis, using a conventional
"download then read" client on a 56k dial up link would be totally
impractical for me, while by contrast the web-interface allows me to
actually keep on top of my mailbox in a reasonable manner.)
b) Gmail does a lot of in-browser caching, so re-opening a mail you already
opened recently does not instigate another network round trip.  You can test
this by viewing a bunch of emails, then setting your browser into "Work
offline" mode.  You'll see that Gmail will happily re-open emails you've
already opened without requiring a re-fetch.
c) As the web matures the trend towards web-applications being able to store
data locally and run off-line should increase, further improving bandwidth
efficiency on the one hand and end-user experience on the other.  (See fore
example this presentation on HTML 5: http://slides.html5rocks.com/#slide1  )
c) Stating the obvious but you can turn downloading of images off by default
in your browser, which will of course further reduce the actual bandwidth
usage by essentially reducing your web browsing to a text-only stream (which
of course to boot will be compressed between web server and web browser.)
d) Using Gmail means you don't waste bandwidth unneccesarily downloading
mails with big attachments (PDF files, Word files) unless you actually want
to, and also prevents you from having to download hundreds of spam messages
and/or your entire inbox before viewing specific emails, which can eat large
amounts of bandwidth.  (There is of course IMAP as well...)
e) Actually having access to your email from places you wouldn't normally
have access to it (on holiday, at conference) is a benefit you don't
neccesarily have with a conventional client.  (You'll only have it if the
client is on your laptop and you have your laptop with you and you can
connect it to a network allowing internet access. )

As for me, I use gmail but with Thunderbird as mail client on my desktop.
In this way I have the best of both worlds.  When at home I'll download my
mail as normal, when abroad I have an interface accessible from anywhere
with internet access.

I absolutely agree about programmers having to be aware of the bandwidth
costs involved with every operation they do, as bandwidth isn't free.
However, the internet is after all, a network, and the argumentation
ostensibly against web based services (especially potentially relatively low
bandwidth ones like gmail) on the basis that they consume network bandwidth
per-se, seemed a little OTT to me.  YMMV.

Walter
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Alan Gauld]

"Richard D. Moores"  wrote


You log into Gmail and your browser downloads the Gmail page;


Yes, of course. But I'm always logged into Gmail.


But it is stiill continually downloading. The same applies to a
desktop client, if you leave it running it can continually poll the
server, just like gmail.


With Eudora I would have to manually *download* new email
to see what was new (as I recall, there was a way to set
Eudora to check for new mail at an interval I could set


But nobody with an always-on conection would sensibly do that, the
tool polls the server - in my case every 15 minutes, but it could
be more often; at work its every minute.

That's what I meant by "my mail is just always THERE", and because 
you

know the difference between OE and Gmail you knew what I meant,


But its exactly wrong because in gmail your mail is never there.
It has to be fetched each and every time you read it. In OE/Eudora/TB
it is really there on your PC. You can read it even when offline.
Web mail is fantastically inefficient and a huge waste of bandwidth.

One of the big problems with the move towards "Cloud Computing"
is the massive amount of extra bandwidth required - who is going to
pay for it? The telcos can't affiord to keep on giving unlimited bits 
to

everyone, there will need to be new charging models introduced to
make the whole thing viable. This is a very big and important issue
and as Steven says we as programmers need to understand the wider
implications of the programming solutions we build.


Of course. Just like anything else which has to get from a Gmail
server to me. If text, that's a small fraction of a second for me. 
So
small that it appears to be instantaneous.  If there are images, 
it's

still a small fraction of a second, and images are usually there by
the time I can scroll down to them.


You must have very fast broadband! Images general take several
seconds over my 2M (nominally 8M) connection (on a good day,
often it slows to under 1M if the neighbours are watching IP TV...)


Sure, but I have broadband access, as do many.


But that is still a shared resource and even if you have high
speed ADSL+ (20M+) it is still a performance bottleneck that
you need to be conscious of.

I know this discussion started as a flippant comment but it does bring
to light some very serious challenges for programmers. We all need to 
be

aware of the bottlenecks ion our designs and currently network
bandwidth (and latency but that's another debate) is the biggest
bottleneck for many applications. (And its nice to see an OT thread
come back on topic! :-)

--
Alan Gauld
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/


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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Alan Gauld]

"David Hutto"  wrote

> fundamentally different from "downloading", and those who know 
> that the
> only difference is that with streaming, the browser deletes the 
> video


But this only matters if a)you're paying for it, not the boss b) 
that
there are unlimited plans available for a single monthly price, or 
c)
you have an 'egotistical'(meaning a professional ego/rep to 
maintain)

perspective on minimizing your code.


Or if the network is shared with other users or other applications
since heavy downloads slow down access for every network user.
And if your neighbour is downloading a lot of video you will notice
the effect on your network speed.

Remember that network speeds have become the biggest single
factor in determining application performance nowadays - it used
to be memory and disk speed - so we as programmers need to
be very conscious of the impact of gratuitous downloads and
consider caching strategies etc. We can't do a lot about other
people streaming videos other than minimise our network requirements.
But we should at least be conscious of how network habits affect
other users.

--
Alan Gauld
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/


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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 17:32, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:52:03 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 16:25, Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:07:47 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
>> >> A "feature" very important to me
>> >> is that with Gmail, my mail is just always THERE, with no need to
>> >> download it
>> >
>> > You see your email without downloading it? You don't understand how
>> > the Internet works, do you?
>>
>> I do, and I also know that you know what I meant.
>
> No, I'm afraid that I don't.

I think you should have.

> You log into Gmail and your browser downloads the Gmail page;

Yes, of course. But I'm always logged into Gmail.  With Eudora I would
have to manually *download* new email to see what was new (as I
recall, there was a way to set Eudora to check for new mail at an
interval I could set -- but I often found this an annoying
interruption); with Gmail this is done for me (with no annoyance).
That's what I meant by "my mail is just always THERE", and because you
know the difference between OE and Gmail you knew what I meant, even
if I may have expressed it incorrectly. I really don't need your
lecture on this. I'm sure there's plenty for me to learn from you, but
not this.

> you click on an email, and your browser
> downloads the contents of the email in order to display it.

Of course. Just like anything else which has to get from a Gmail
server to me. If text, that's a small fraction of a second for me. So
small that it appears to be instantaneous.  If there are images, it's
still a small fraction of a second, and images are usually there by
the time I can scroll down to them.

> I'm afraid
> I have no idea what you mean by not downloading your email. Perhaps you
> should try reading a 50MB email over dial-up to drive home the fact
> that you *are* downloading?

Sure, but I have broadband access, as do many. My fault for not
mentioning this -- but you should not pretend to not have inferred
that I did have such access.

> The difference is that, with Gmail (or Hotmail, or Yahoo mail), you have
> to download it each time you read the email instead of just once.

Not a problem. See above.

> Particularly as this is a programming mailing list, I think it is very
> important to remember that fetching information over the Internet *is*
> downloading, and not just gloss over it as some sort of magic. There
> are Python libraries specifically for dealing with all this, and apart
> from the ability to execute Javascript, Python can do pretty much
> everything your browser does.

NOW you're talking about stuff I'd like to learn here.

> There are two sorts of people in the world: those who think that (e.g.)
> watching a streaming video in your browser over the Internet is
> fundamentally different from "downloading", and those who know that the
> only difference is that with streaming, the browser deletes the video
> after you've watched it. I would think that, as programmers, we should
> be in the second group rather than the first.

Hear, hear! But also to not be so quick when classifying others.

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[David Hutto]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:52:03 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 16:25, Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:07:47 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
>> >> A "feature" very important to me
>> >> is that with Gmail, my mail is just always THERE, with no need to
>> >> download it
>> >
>> > You see your email without downloading it? You don't understand how
>> > the Internet works, do you?
>>
>> I do, and I also know that you know what I meant.
>
> No, I'm afraid that I don't. You log into Gmail and your browser
> downloads the Gmail page; you click on an email, and your browser
> downloads the contents of the email in order to display it. I'm afraid
> I have no idea what you mean by not downloading your email. Perhaps you
> should try reading a 50MB email over dial-up to drive home the fact
> that you *are* downloading?
>
> The difference is that, with Gmail (or Hotmail, or Yahoo mail), you have
> to download it each time you read the email instead of just once.
>
> Particularly as this is a programming mailing list, I think it is very
> important to remember that fetching information over the Internet *is*
> downloading, and not just gloss over it as some sort of magic. There
> are Python libraries specifically for dealing with all this, and apart
> from the ability to execute Javascript, Python can do pretty much
> everything your browser does.
>
> There are two sorts of people in the world: those who think that (e.g.)
> watching a streaming video in your browser over the Internet is
> fundamentally different from "downloading", and those who know that the
> only difference is that with streaming, the browser deletes the video
> after you've watched it.

But this only matters if a)you're paying for it, not the boss b) that
there are unlimited plans available for a single monthly price, or c)
you have an 'egotistical'(meaning a professional ego/rep to maintain)
perspective on minimizing your code.

 I would think that, as programmers, we should
> be in the second group rather than the first.
>
>
> --
> Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:52:03 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 16:25, Steven D'Aprano  
wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:07:47 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
> >> A "feature" very important to me
> >> is that with Gmail, my mail is just always THERE, with no need to
> >> download it
> >
> > You see your email without downloading it? You don't understand how
> > the Internet works, do you?
>
> I do, and I also know that you know what I meant.

No, I'm afraid that I don't. You log into Gmail and your browser 
downloads the Gmail page; you click on an email, and your browser 
downloads the contents of the email in order to display it. I'm afraid 
I have no idea what you mean by not downloading your email. Perhaps you 
should try reading a 50MB email over dial-up to drive home the fact 
that you *are* downloading?

The difference is that, with Gmail (or Hotmail, or Yahoo mail), you have 
to download it each time you read the email instead of just once.

Particularly as this is a programming mailing list, I think it is very 
important to remember that fetching information over the Internet *is* 
downloading, and not just gloss over it as some sort of magic. There 
are Python libraries specifically for dealing with all this, and apart 
from the ability to execute Javascript, Python can do pretty much 
everything your browser does.

There are two sorts of people in the world: those who think that (e.g.) 
watching a streaming video in your browser over the Internet is 
fundamentally different from "downloading", and those who know that the 
only difference is that with streaming, the browser deletes the video 
after you've watched it. I would think that, as programmers, we should 
be in the second group rather than the first.


-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 16:25, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:07:47 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
>> A "feature" very important to me
>> is that with Gmail, my mail is just always THERE, with no need to
>> download it
>
> You see your email without downloading it? You don't understand how the
> Internet works, do you?

I do, and I also know that you know what I meant.

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:07:47 am Richard D. Moores wrote:
> A "feature" very important to me
> is that with Gmail, my mail is just always THERE, with no need to
> download it

You see your email without downloading it? You don't understand how the 
Internet works, do you?

*wry grin*


-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Marc Tompkins]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Alan Gauld wrote:

> "Marc Tompkins"  wrote
>
>  having no default email client (what sort of two-bit operating system
>>
>>> doesn't have an email client in 2010?);
>>>
>>>  Jesus, you _miss_ Outlook Express?  Seriously:  the new default is
>> webmail.
>> Like it, don't like it, but it's really not as if you can't get your mail.
>>
>
> I will miss OE. I actually quite like it, its simple but has all the bits
> I need for both email and newrgroups. I tried thunderbird and use it
> on my Linux box but on windows I usually revert to OE.
>
I always hated OE, but I suppose it does have its uses. Backing up OE was
always problematic...



> And its lots better than webmail which is only useful for occasional
> browsing. But I get around 200 plus emails a day (and sometimes the
> same again in news messages) and trying to manage that on webmail
> is a nightmare - and you can't read it while offline. I really need an
> offline mail client.

As Richard mentioned and I will second, GMail handles that volume easily;
Gears enables offline reading, and if you've drunk the Kool-Aid like I have,
integration with Android is seamless.  Also it's instantly portable from
machine to machine.

In any case, I only meant to whole-heartedly endorse upgrading from Vista to
7, and dismiss the loss of OE as a reason not to.  Embracing the GMail way
appears to be another one of those dreaded religious topics - I certainly
can feel myself morphing into a ranting fanatic...


>  Just like XP and Vista, you're asked during installation whether you want
>> to
>> allow or disallow automatic updates.  If you breeze past that question,
>> then
>> - just like in XP and Vista - you can right-click on the little icon that
>> appears in your system tray (oops, I mean "notification area.")
>>
>
> OOh. I've never noticed the icon - what does it look like? I didn't
> do the install so had no say in the decision for work, but for my
> home PC I'd much rather decide if/when I do "upgrades" - I've had
> too mamy Windows upgrades kill my PC to the point of needing
> rebuiilds!

It looks like a rectangular pane of glass (a Window, maybe?) with an orange
halo orbiting it.  I don't see it on my machine at the moment (because I -
wait for it - turned off automatic updates when I installed), so I'm a
little fuzzy on whether it's a left-click, double-click, or right-click that
gets you the option to turn off the auto updates.
Regardless, here's a more direct way:
   Control Panel\System and Security\Windows Update\Change settings


 - Better wireless networking.  Coming out of sleep or hibernation, it used
> to take up to a minute and a half to connect to a known wireless network
>

I'll need to check that - I've just gotten used to going for a coffee when I
> boot up - it usually takes me around 5 minutes for everything to get
> started so I've never noticed the WiFi changes.


I was driving on the freeway a while back, talking to my sister on the phone
(hands-free!) when she mentioned that her computer was giving her trouble.
I exited and pulled into a Starbucks I'd used before (so my machine already
knew "attwifi7" or whatever it is).  I opened my laptop, signed in, and used
Chrome to sign into the AT&T captive portal; within less than a minute of my
butt hitting the banquette I was in Copilot.  She and I commiserated about
the good old days when at least I could have ordered my coffee before I had
to get down to work... 8-)


-- 
www.fsrtechnologies.com
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 07:41, Alan Gauld  wrote:
> "Marc Tompkins"  wrote

> I will miss OE. I actually quite like it, its simple but has all the bits
> I need for both email and newrgroups. I tried thunderbird and use it
> on my Linux box but on windows I usually revert to OE.
>
> And its lots better than webmail which is only useful for occasional
> browsing. But I get around 200 plus emails a day (and sometimes the
> same again in news messages) and trying to manage that on webmail
> is a nightmare - and you can't read it while offline. I really need an
> offline mail client.

I get 200-300 emails per weekday, and Gmail handles them with aplomb.
I have over 300 labels (it's now, finally, possible to nest them).
(Tip: use [(From:address) OR (From:me AND ((To: OR Cc:)address))] --
delete the square brackets -- in the "Has the words" textbox when
making a filter that will apply to all mail from yourself to: or cc'd
to an address OR from an address). Labels can be nested and color
coded. Be sure to check out the numerous other features, including the
ones on the "Labs" tab. BTW I used Eudora for a decade, and also OE
because I had to teach it to my wife. A "feature" very important to me
is that with Gmail, my mail is just always THERE, with no need to
download it -- and often INSTANTLY there because there are so many
other Gmail users. I'll stop my praise of Gmail here because this is
an OT of an OT thread :) .

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Alan Gauld]

"Marc Tompkins"  wrote

having no default email client (what sort of two-bit operating 
system

doesn't have an email client in 2010?);

Jesus, you _miss_ Outlook Express?  Seriously:  the new default is 
webmail.
Like it, don't like it, but it's really not as if you can't get your 
mail.


I will miss OE. I actually quite like it, its simple but has all the 
bits

I need for both email and newrgroups. I tried thunderbird and use it
on my Linux box but on windows I usually revert to OE.

And its lots better than webmail which is only useful for occasional
browsing. But I get around 200 plus emails a day (and sometimes the
same again in news messages) and trying to manage that on webmail
is a nightmare - and you can't read it while offline. I really need an
offline mail client.

Just like XP and Vista, you're asked during installation whether you 
want to
allow or disallow automatic updates.  If you breeze past that 
question, then
- just like in XP and Vista - you can right-click on the little icon 
that

appears in your system tray (oops, I mean "notification area.")


OOh. I've never noticed the icon - what does it look like? I didn't
do the install so had no say in the decision for work, but for my
home PC I'd much rather decide if/when I do "upgrades" - I've had
too mamy Windows upgrades kill my PC to the point of needing
rebuiilds!

To paraphrase, "what sort of two-bit ISP doesn't have a webmail site 
in

2010?"


But webmail is no good if you've used up your bandwidth.
A background client might just have received the warning
before the quota went bang...

- Better wireless networking.  Coming out of sleep or hibernation, 
it used
to take up to a minute and a half to connect to a known wireless 
network


I'll need to check that - I've just gotten used to going for a coffee 
when I

boot up - it usually takes me around 5 minutes for everything to get
started so I've never noticed the WiFi changes.

- Seriously improved multi-monitor support.  I've loved using dual 
monitors


I only user this when doing powerpoint presentations but I'll need
to take a closer look.

Thanks for sharing your comments, even if this thread is seriously
off topic!

Alan G. 



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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Alan Gauld]

"Steven D'Aprano"  wrote

having no default email client (what sort of two-bit operating 
system

doesn't have an email client in 2010?);


To be fair to MS - and it pains me to do so - they have been beat up
so much by the lawyers that its hardlly surprising. After all they
have been forced to remove the browser from the OS in Europe
(and elsewhere?). Why not the email client too? After all, Linux 
doesn't

tecchnically have a mail client (unless you count command line mail),
it's the distros that add that.

the automatic upgrades that run silently in the background with no 
easy

way to turn them on or off


Yes I really hate that!


the gratuitous UI changes (am I missing something, or does Internet
Explorer no longer have a menubar?);


None of the new MS applications do, the menu bar has been
merged into the new look toolbar. Thus making something small
and unobtrusive large and extremely obtrusive and requiring a
relearning of the whole command structure! I really don't like the
new MS UI thing, even after 6 montrhs of use it still drives me nuts!
(I use Win7 on my laptop at work)

the use of third-party applications like Adobe Acrobat Reader which 
have

become overloaded with *stupid* security vulnerabilities *by design*


But that applies to all OS that Reader runs on doesn't it?
Can't blame Windows 7 for that.


consequently the proliferation of adware and spyware (even


Yep, agree with this too.


On the other hand, it is quite pretty.


Hmm, I'm stlll not sure about that...
But then, I srtill run Windows XP in Classic mode with Windows95
style menu and start button etc.

Alan G.


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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Marc Tompkins]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Apart from:
>
 The OP was asking about upgrading from Vista to 7, so let me answer your
objections here...

 having no default email client (what sort of two-bit operating system
> doesn't have an email client in 2010?);
>
Jesus, you _miss_ Outlook Express?  Seriously:  the new default is webmail.
Like it, don't like it, but it's really not as if you can't get your mail.


> the automatic upgrades that run silently in the background with no easy
> way to turn them on or off

Just like XP and Vista, you're asked during installation whether you want to
allow or disallow automatic updates.  If you breeze past that question, then
- just like in XP and Vista - you can right-click on the little icon that
appears in your system tray (oops, I mean "notification area.")  True,
Windows 7 is proactive about hiding stuff in the tray... but it does still
appear there.

A more legitimate gripe is that, after downloading those updates, Windows
insists on applying them when you shut down the computer.  If you're in a
hurry, that can be a PITA.


> (always fun when your Internet download cap
> is completely used up TWO DAYS into the month -- especially when you
> don't know because you can't read the email from your ISP due to not
> having an email client,

To paraphrase, "what sort of two-bit ISP doesn't have a webmail site in
2010?"

the gratuitous UI changes (am I missing something, or does Internet
> Explorer no longer have a menubar?);
>
That's IE, not Windows.  Windows 7 comes with IE 8; Vista came with IE 7; XP
came with IE 6.  I don't care for the look myself, but then I never use IE
if I can avoid it (Firefox for mail and searching, 'cause I love me some
plugins; Chrome for everything else, 'cause it's fast as hell.  IE when I'm
on a client machine and there's nothing better.)  IE 8 is being rolled out
to all versions of Windows in any case, so that's not a reason not to
upgrade - unless you were planning to turn off Windows Update in Vista,
which is a bad idea for security reasons...

the use of third-party applications like Adobe Acrobat Reader which have
> become overloaded with *stupid* security vulnerabilities *by design*
> (years after Microsoft themselves got burnt, time and time again, by
> allowing the web-browser and mail client to execute random code found
> on the internet, somebody at Adobe apparently thought it would be a
> good idea for the PDF reader to do the same thing *facepalms*); and
>
Microsoft doesn't provide a PDF reader of its own - I'm not sure, but I
suspect that's for legal reasons - so whatever PDF reader you use, it HAS to
be third-party.  Why Adobe?  Probably because it's called "_Adobe_ Acrobat?"

Now, I hate Adobe products for the same reasons you mentioned, so I use and
recommend the free Foxit Reader (www.foxitsoftware.com).  But that was the
same under XP and Vista.


> consequently the proliferation of adware and spyware (even
> the "legitimate" anti-malware companies fill your browser with ad-laden
> toolbars and try terrifying the user with "your computer is
> unprotected" warnings -- no wonder the average user can't tell the
> difference between legitimate anti-malware and trojan horses).
>

 Again, not new in 7 - and, as a matter of fact, possibly somewhat better
than in Vista.


> On the other hand, it is quite pretty.
>
Screw pretty.  Pretty don't pay the rent.  First thing I do on any machine I
get my hands on is turn off the $%^&* Aero Glass - why would I take that
kind of performance hit for the dubious pleasure of a translucent titlebar?
But guess what?  MS introduced that piece of idiotism in - wait for it -
Vista.

My reasons FOR upgrading:

- Better UAC.  UAC is never going to feel natural to users (like me - I
freely admit it) who came up from DOS, and are stuck in a single-user
mindset.  Users raised on *nixes, on the other hand, find UAC to be a
laughable baby step on the way to a real least-privilege security model.
That said, 7 does a much more natural job (than Vista) of asking for
elevation only when needed, and staying out of the way most of the rest of
the time.

- Faster sleep/hibernation and wakeup.  I have no idea what they did under
the covers, but on my laptop under Vista 64-bit, it took a minute or so to
hibernate, and 30 seconds or so to wake up.  7 takes 30 seconds or so to
hibernate, and 15 seconds to wake up.  Not astronomical, but coupled with
the next point, it's HUGE.

- Better wireless networking.  Coming out of sleep or hibernation, it used
to take up to a minute and a half to connect to a known wireless network (in
other words, a network I'd previously connected to and saved settings for.)
Now, I'm generally connected even before I can see the desktop - 3 to 5
seconds, maybe.  I carry my laptop everywhere, and connect to wireless
networks at my clients (and Starbucks!) all day long, so this is a MAJOR
deal for me.

- Seriously improved multi-monitor support.  I've loved using dual m

Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 15:04, Marc Tompkins  wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Richard D. Moores 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 13:39, Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
>>  wrote:
>> > Hi Dick,
>> >
>> > In that case, perhaps you could externally back up all your important
>> > stuff
>> > and then format your hard disk. That way, any drivers etc intended for
>> > Windows Vista will be wiped off, and you can then perform a clean
>> > installation from your disk. Now, as far as upgrade disks go, I do not
>> > know
>> > whether it will work as a "clean installation" disk, or whether it is
>> > only
>> > meant for use on an existing windows installation (hence the name
>> > "upgrade"). You might want to check that out first.
>>
>> I don't believe the disk I have will enable a clean installation.
>
> I'm pretty sure it will:
> http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/clean_install_upgrade_media.asp
> http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/10/27/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media-and-product-key-on-formatted-or-empty-blank-hard-drive/
>
> The upshot of both those articles is: boot from the upgrade disk as if it
> were a normal Full Install disk; when it asks for the Windows key, leave it
> blank.  Don't enter the key until after the installation is complete, when
> you want to activate.
>
> Since you CAN use that disk as a clean install, I definitely recommend that
> you DO.  When I upgraded my laptop to Windows 7, I bought myself a new 500GB
> hard drive for the purpose.  $60 and five minutes with a small screwdriver
> brought me a huge dividend in peace of mind.

I have to get some sleep right now, but I'll give your suggestion
serious consideration when I get up.

Thanks very much, Marc.

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 04:55:13 am Sithembewena Lloyd Dube wrote:
> Richard, I think you may go ahead without trepidation. I am not a
> Windows fan at all, I prefer Ubuntu. But I started using Win. 7 at
> work about a month ago, and I have to say it hasn't given me cause to
> grumble.

I don't think Richard is asking whether Windows 7 is worth using. I 
think he's asking, is it painful to upgrade from Vista to Windows 7.


> Of course, a month is hardly sufficient time to have a strong
> opinion, but I can tell you that it works just fine.

Apart from:

having no default email client (what sort of two-bit operating system 
doesn't have an email client in 2010?);

the automatic upgrades that run silently in the background with no easy 
way to turn them on or off (always fun when your Internet download cap 
is completely used up TWO DAYS into the month -- especially when you 
don't know because you can't read the email from your ISP due to not 
having an email client, and you can't download one because all the 
available bandwidth is being consumed by the updates);

the gratuitous UI changes (am I missing something, or does Internet 
Explorer no longer have a menubar?);

the use of third-party applications like Adobe Acrobat Reader which have 
become overloaded with *stupid* security vulnerabilities *by design* 
(years after Microsoft themselves got burnt, time and time again, by 
allowing the web-browser and mail client to execute random code found 
on the internet, somebody at Adobe apparently thought it would be a 
good idea for the PDF reader to do the same thing *facepalms*); and

consequently the proliferation of adware and spyware (even 
the "legitimate" anti-malware companies fill your browser with ad-laden 
toolbars and try terrifying the user with "your computer is 
unprotected" warnings -- no wonder the average user can't tell the 
difference between legitimate anti-malware and trojan horses).

On the other hand, it is quite pretty.

(Yes, I am speaking from experience. Everything I have mentioned I have 
seen with my own eyes.)


-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Marc Tompkins]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Richard D. Moores wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 13:39, Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
>  wrote:
> > Hi Dick,
> >
> > In that case, perhaps you could externally back up all your important
> stuff
> > and then format your hard disk. That way, any drivers etc intended for
> > Windows Vista will be wiped off, and you can then perform a clean
> > installation from your disk. Now, as far as upgrade disks go, I do not
> know
> > whether it will work as a "clean installation" disk, or whether it is
> only
> > meant for use on an existing windows installation (hence the name
> > "upgrade"). You might want to check that out first.
>
> I don't believe the disk I have will enable a clean installation.
>
I'm pretty sure it will:
http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/clean_install_upgrade_media.asp
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/10/27/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media-and-product-key-on-formatted-or-empty-blank-hard-drive/

The upshot of both those articles is: boot from the upgrade disk as if it
were a normal Full Install disk; when it asks for the Windows key, leave it
blank.  Don't enter the key until after the installation is complete, when
you want to activate.

Since you CAN use that disk as a clean install, I definitely recommend that
you DO.  When I upgraded my laptop to Windows 7, I bought myself a new 500GB
hard drive for the purpose.  $60 and five minutes with a small screwdriver
brought me a huge dividend in peace of mind.

-- 
www.fsrtechnologies.com
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 13:39, Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
 wrote:
> Hi Dick,
>
> In that case, perhaps you could externally back up all your important stuff
> and then format your hard disk. That way, any drivers etc intended for
> Windows Vista will be wiped off, and you can then perform a clean
> installation from your disk. Now, as far as upgrade disks go, I do not know
> whether it will work as a "clean installation" disk, or whether it is only
> meant for use on an existing windows installation (hence the name
> "upgrade"). You might want to check that out first.

I don't believe the disk I have will enable a clean installation.

I found a relevant thread in the WindowsSecrets Lounge:
, which seems to have some good
info and advice.

> Let us know how it goes.

OK.

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Sithembewena Lloyd Dube]

Hi Dick,

In that case, perhaps you could externally back up all your important stuff
and then format your hard disk. That way, any drivers etc intended for
Windows Vista will be wiped off, and you can then perform a clean
installation from your disk. Now, as far as upgrade disks go, I do not know
whether it will work as a "clean installation" disk, or whether it is only
meant for use on an existing windows installation (hence the name
"upgrade"). You might want to check that out first.

Let us know how it goes.

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Richard D. Moores wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:55, Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
>  wrote:
> > Richard, I think you may go ahead without trepidation. I am not a Windows
> > fan at all, I prefer Ubuntu. But I started using Win. 7 at work about a
> > month ago, and I have to say it hasn't given me cause to grumble.
> >
> > Of course, a month is hardly sufficient time to have a strong opinion,
> but I
> > can tell you that it works just fine.
>
> Thanks, but I'm not worried about Win 7 working well when perfectly
> installed. I'm concerned that if I upgrade to 7 from Vista using the
> upgrade disk I have, that THAT 7 on my laptop will end up with
> problems caused by the install.
>
> Dick
>



-- 
Regards,
Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
http://www.lloyddube.com
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:55, Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
 wrote:
> Richard, I think you may go ahead without trepidation. I am not a Windows
> fan at all, I prefer Ubuntu. But I started using Win. 7 at work about a
> month ago, and I have to say it hasn't given me cause to grumble.
>
> Of course, a month is hardly sufficient time to have a strong opinion, but I
> can tell you that it works just fine.

Thanks, but I'm not worried about Win 7 working well when perfectly
installed. I'm concerned that if I upgrade to 7 from Vista using the
upgrade disk I have, that THAT 7 on my laptop will end up with
problems caused by the install.

Dick
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Sithembewena Lloyd Dube]

Richard, I think you may go ahead without trepidation. I am not a Windows
fan at all, I prefer Ubuntu. But I started using Win. 7 at work about a
month ago, and I have to say it hasn't given me cause to grumble.

Of course, a month is hardly sufficient time to have a strong opinion, but I
can tell you that it works just fine.

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 08:53:57 pm you wrote:
> > > Why did they stop? Could it be because the upgrade is sometimes
> > > difficult and requires huge amount of manual effort to get it
> > > working, far more than $40 will cover?
> >
> > Do you know that it does? Please tell me what you know.
>
> I have no idea. That's why I asked:
>
> > > Cynical? Who, me?
>
>
>
> --
> Steven D'Aprano
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-- 
Regards,
Sithembewena Lloyd Dube
http://www.lloyddube.com
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 08:53:57 pm you wrote:
> > Why did they stop? Could it be because the upgrade is sometimes
> > difficult and requires huge amount of manual effort to get it
> > working, far more than $40 will cover?
>
> Do you know that it does? Please tell me what you know.

I have no idea. That's why I asked:

> > Cynical? Who, me?



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 03:10, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 05:00:16 pm Richard D. Moores wrote:
>> Sorry about the OT, but I'm really nervous about the possibility of
>> screwing up my laptop by upgrading the OS from Vista to 7, and can't
>> think of a better place than Tutors to ask for advice.
>
> Because of course knowing Python makes you an expert on Windows :)
>
>
> [...]
>> Then recently I've talked to a couple of guys (separately) in 2
>> Office Depots near Seattle who both told me that the Vista -> 7
>> upgrade should go without any trouble at all. That I should do the
>> upgrade, then immediately download and install all the updates for 7
>> that MS has issued. Both used used to do such upgrades for customers
>> for a fee ($40), but not anymore.
>
> Why did they stop? Could it be because the upgrade is sometimes
> difficult and requires huge amount of manual effort to get it working,
> far more than $40 will cover?

Do you know that it does? Please tell me what you know.

>
> Cynical? Who, me?
>
>
> --
> Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 05:00:16 pm Richard D. Moores wrote:
> Sorry about the OT, but I'm really nervous about the possibility of
> screwing up my laptop by upgrading the OS from Vista to 7, and can't
> think of a better place than Tutors to ask for advice.

Because of course knowing Python makes you an expert on Windows :)


[...]
> Then recently I've talked to a couple of guys (separately) in 2
> Office Depots near Seattle who both told me that the Vista -> 7
> upgrade should go without any trouble at all. That I should do the
> upgrade, then immediately download and install all the updates for 7
> that MS has issued. Both used used to do such upgrades for customers
> for a fee ($40), but not anymore. 

Why did they stop? Could it be because the upgrade is sometimes 
difficult and requires huge amount of manual effort to get it working, 
far more than $40 will cover?

Cynical? Who, me?


-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Shashwat Anand]

I am not a window user myself but all my friends who upgraded are quite
happy about it. AFAIK Vista was a failure but 7 is good, so it is worth
upgrading.

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Richard D. Moores wrote:

> Sorry about the OT, but I'm really nervous about the possibility of
> screwing up my laptop by upgrading the OS from Vista to 7, and can't
> think of a better place than Tutors to ask for advice.
>
> I bought this Toshiba Satellite last October. It came with the right
> to receive the upgrade CD for Windows 7 when it became available. I
> think I finally got the disk in February, but by that time I'd gotten
> used to Vista, and Vista was then, as now, in SP2 (64-bit). By that
> time a generally computer-savvy friend (but who runs linux) was
> telling me to not do the upgrade because I'd end up with problems with
> 7 and also with a lot of the software I had already installed.
>
> Then recently I've talked to a couple of guys (separately) in 2 Office
> Depots near Seattle who both told me that the Vista -> 7 upgrade
> should go without any trouble at all. That I should do the upgrade,
> then immediately download and install all the updates for 7 that MS
> has issued. Both used used to do such upgrades for customers for a fee
> ($40), but not anymore. So they didn't have anything to sell me -- I
> think they were being honest about their experience.
>
> Has anyone here done the upgrade I'm considering, or know of anyone
> who has? Any advice or anecdotes for me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dick Moores
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[Tutor] OT: need computer advice from wise Tutors

[Richard D. Moores]

Sorry about the OT, but I'm really nervous about the possibility of
screwing up my laptop by upgrading the OS from Vista to 7, and can't
think of a better place than Tutors to ask for advice.

I bought this Toshiba Satellite last October. It came with the right
to receive the upgrade CD for Windows 7 when it became available. I
think I finally got the disk in February, but by that time I'd gotten
used to Vista, and Vista was then, as now, in SP2 (64-bit). By that
time a generally computer-savvy friend (but who runs linux) was
telling me to not do the upgrade because I'd end up with problems with
7 and also with a lot of the software I had already installed.

Then recently I've talked to a couple of guys (separately) in 2 Office
Depots near Seattle who both told me that the Vista -> 7 upgrade
should go without any trouble at all. That I should do the upgrade,
then immediately download and install all the updates for 7 that MS
has issued. Both used used to do such upgrades for customers for a fee
($40), but not anymore. So they didn't have anything to sell me -- I
think they were being honest about their experience.

Has anyone here done the upgrade I'm considering, or know of anyone
who has? Any advice or anecdotes for me?

Thanks,

Dick Moores
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