Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi Patty, As far as books are concerned, I actually prefer (programming) books in the English language. Although the Dutch don't do it as much as e.g. the French or the Germans, I hate it when technical terms are translated into Dutch in a somewhat artificial way (Computer is Ordinateur in French and Rechner in German [although Computer is also OK]; in Dutch it's simply Computer) . It also makes it harder to find additional info on the internet. In addition, books in the English language are usually far cheaper than those in Dutch. As far as programming itself is concerned, I find it slightly more readable to use Dutch variable and function names. The risk of name clashes is also virtually absent! In my office we have a coding convention which states that Dutch names should be used. I must confess, however, I don't always consistently follow the convention. One example are getter and setter methods. It's just clearer to use 'get' and 'set' in the method name. When I download software, I use then 'as-is'. I might translate code snippets so it blends better with the rest of the code. If I send snippets to e.g. this mailing list, I usually translate the variable names + comments --only this time I was a bit lazy. ;-) Cheers!! Albert-Jan ~~ All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? ~~ From: Patty pa...@cruzio.com To: Albert-Jan Roskam fo...@yahoo.com; Python Mailing List tutor@python.org Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 11:39:28 PM Subject: Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding Hello Albert-Jan: I am glad you made the comment below. I was fascinated with the fact that your code was partly in English/Python and also in Dutch. I am a linguist so have great interest in bilingualism. How does this work in practice? I mean as a programmer, with native language other than English, do you download or buy English language software programs and work with them as-is? Do you have translated tutorials to help you learn? If you had a Dutch language software program and created your own program so that everything is totally in Dutch, and you wanted to communicate with English language email group :) How would you do that? Or would you try and find a Dutch language resource? Besides that, I am definitely saving your code segments for the future. Thanks for sharing. Patty - Original Message - From: Albert-Jan Roskam To: Albert-Jan Roskam ; Python Mailing List Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:18PM Subject: Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinterevent binding stuff snipped I'llpaste the working code below. It's partially in Dutch, but hey, so is Guidovan Rossem. ;-) stuff snipped ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi Patty, As far as books are concerned, I actually prefer (programming) books in the English language. Although the Dutch don't do it as much as e.g. the French or the Germans, I hate it when technical terms are translated into Dutch in a somewhat artificial way (Computer is Ordinateur in French and Rechner in German [although Computer is also OK]; in Dutch it's simply Computer) . It also makes it harder to find additional info on the internet. In addition, books in the English language are usually far cheaper than those in Dutch. As far as programming itself is concerned, I find it slightly more readable to use Dutch variable and function names. The risk of name clashes is also virtually absent! In my office we have a coding convention which states that Dutch names should be used. I must confess, however, I don't always consistently follow the convention. One example are getter and setter methods. It's just clearer to use 'get' and 'set' in the method name. When I download software, I use then 'as-is'. I might translate code snippets so it blends better with the rest of the code. If I send snippets to e.g. this mailing list, I usually translate the variable names + comments --only this time I was a bit lazy. ;-) I tend to follow this piece of advice from PEP 8: Python coders from non-English speaking countries: please write your comments in English, unless you are 120% sure that the code will never be read by people who don't speak your language. It's about comments, but applies just as well to variable names etc. If output strings are eg Dutch, that's only the non-English part, and I might even make use of some translation library (ie, English strings, which get replaced by the appropriate strings upon a language settings. I know Django uses this system). It has such a huge advantage when, for example, asking questions on a list like this. Albert-Jan may occasionally translate his problems, but there's no guarantee that that wouldn't masquerade the actual problem. I actually find it a bit weird that a (programming?) company has a coding convention for non-English names; makes it harder if you want to hire non-Dutch speaking employees, distribute software ( code) internationally etc. Cheers, Evert Cheers!! Albert-Jan ~~ All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? ~~ From: Patty pa...@cruzio.com To: Albert-Jan Roskam fo...@yahoo.com; Python Mailing List tutor@python.org Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 11:39:28 PM Subject: Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding Hello Albert-Jan: I am glad you made the comment below. I was fascinated with the fact that your code was partly in English/Python and also in Dutch. I am a linguist so have great interest in bilingualism. How does this work in practice? I mean as a programmer, with native language other than English, do you download or buy English language software programs and work with them as-is? Do you have translated tutorials to help you learn? If you had a Dutch language software program and created your own program so that everything is totally in Dutch, and you wanted to communicate with English language email group :) How would you do that? Or would you try and find a Dutch language resource? Besides that, I am definitely saving your code segments for the future. Thanks for sharing. Patty - Original Message - From: Albert-Jan Roskam To: Albert-Jan Roskam ; Python Mailing List Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding stuff snipped I'll paste the working code below. It's partially in Dutch, but hey, so is Guido van Rossem. ;-) stuff snipped ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi Evert,
I actually wanted the var names to be in English, but apparently the people who
came up with the coding convention did not agree with me on this. Then again,
the Zen of Python states that (1) readability counts and that (2) practicality
beats purity. Most of the time, I'm 120% sure the code doesn't leave Holland.
If
it inadvertently does, Ctrl-H is my friend. It's impractical to overgeneralize
one's applications. Let's say I have a list of all the medical specialisms we
have here in N. I really wouldn't know all the exact English equivalents. My
manager wouldn't like it if I spent my time doing all the translations.
Besides,
doesn't it with the current political climate to have dutch-only code? ;-)
[Note: We had a landslide win of a xenophobic, right-wing party during the last
elections]
Meanwhile, I tinkered a bit more with the code. I used exec() to isolate the
event handler function. It works and it's better, but I think it could be still
better. I'm not so fond of eval() and exec().
from Tkinter import *
def createWidgets(veldnamen):
root=Tk()
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]),
*Postcode: set([2600AA, 8000BB]),
Adres: set([Street, Avenue])}
handleDeletions = {}
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
labelWidget=Label(root, text=veldnaam, takefocus=False)
labelWidget.grid()
# tcl names must start with a lowercase letter
tclName = veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:]
content = StringVar()
entryWidget=Entry(root, name=tclName, textvariable=content)
entryWidget.grid()
exec(doHandleDeletion())
handleDeletions[entryWidget] = handleDeletion
for entryWidget, handleDeletion in handleDeletions.iteritems():
entryWidget.bind(Shift-Delete, handleDeletion)
def doHandleDeletion():
func = \
def handleDeletion(event, widget=entryWidget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst,content=content):
actieveVenster = root.focus_get()
actieveVensternaam = str(actieveVenster)[1:].capitalize()
if actieveVensternaam.startswith(*):
actieveVensternaam = * + actieveVensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud = content.get().strip()
print Name: %s -- Contents: %s % (actieveVensternaam,
vensterinhoud)
try:
termenlijst[actieveVensternaam].remove(vensterinhoud)
actieveVenster.delete(0, END)
print Deleted term '%s' % vensterinhoud
except KeyError:
print No such term '%s' % vensterinhoud
pass
return func
createWidgets([Naam, *Postcode, Adres])
Cheers!!
Albert-Jan
~~
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public
order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have
the
Romans ever done for us?
~~
From: Evert Rol evert@gmail.com
To: Albert-Jan Roskam fo...@yahoo.com
Cc: Patty pa...@cruzio.com; Python Mailing List tutor@python.org
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 2:10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi Patty,
As far as books are concerned, I actually prefer (programming) books in the
English language. Although the Dutch don't do it as much as e.g. the French or
the Germans, I hate it when technical terms are translated into Dutch in a
somewhat artificial way (Computer is Ordinateur in French and Rechner in
German [although Computer is also OK]; in Dutch it's simply Computer) . It
also makes it harder to find additional info on the internet. In addition,
books
in the English language are usually far cheaper than those in Dutch.
As far as programming itself is concerned, I find it slightly more readable
to
use Dutch variable and function names. The risk of name clashes is also
virtually absent! In my office we have a coding convention which states that
Dutch names should be used. I must confess, however, I don't always
consistently
follow the convention. One example are getter and setter methods. It's just
clearer to use 'get' and 'set' in the method name. When I download software,
I
use then 'as-is'. I might translate code snippets so it blends better with the
rest of the code. If I send snippets to e.g. this mailing list, I usually
translate the variable names + comments --only this time I was a bit lazy. ;-)
I tend to follow this piece of advice from PEP 8:
Python coders from non-English speaking countries: please write your comments
in English, unless you are 120% sure that the code will never be read by people
who don't speak your language.
It's about comments, but applies just as well to variable names etc. If output
strings are eg Dutch, that's only the non-English part, and I
Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Evert Rol wrote: I actually find it a bit weird that a (programming?) company has a coding convention for non-English names; makes it harder if you want to hire non-Dutch speaking employees, distribute software ( code) internationally etc. I can't put my hands on the reference right now, but something like 99% of all software in the world is written purely for internal use and never gets distributed *at all*, let alone internationally. -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Albert-Jan Roskam wrote:
Meanwhile, I tinkered a bit more with the code. I used exec() to isolate the
event handler function. It works and it's better, but I think it could be still
better. I'm not so fond of eval() and exec().
They have their uses, but yes, it's best to avoid them unless you need
them. Let's see if we can avoid them :)
from Tkinter import *
def createWidgets(veldnamen):
root=Tk()
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]),
*Postcode: set([2600AA, 8000BB]),
Adres: set([Street, Avenue])}
handleDeletions = {}
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
labelWidget=Label(root, text=veldnaam, takefocus=False)
labelWidget.grid()
# tcl names must start with a lowercase letter
tclName = veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:]
content = StringVar()
entryWidget=Entry(root, name=tclName, textvariable=content)
entryWidget.grid()
exec(doHandleDeletion())
handleDeletions[entryWidget] = handleDeletion
The classic solution for callbacks is to use lambda, but of course
lambda is limited to a single expression and won't do the job here. So
what you need is a factory function that returns a new function:
handleDeletions[entryWidget] = make_deletion_handler()
and the factory itself is defined something like this:
def make_deletion_handler():
# Create a function.
def handleDeletion(event, widget=entryWidget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst, content=content):
actieveVenster = root.focus_get()
actieveVensternaam = str(actieveVenster)[1:].capitalize()
if actieveVensternaam.startswith(*):
actieveVensternaam = *+actieveVensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud = content.get().strip()
print Name: %s -- Contents: %s \
% (actieveVensternaam, vensterinhoud)
try:
termenlijst[actieveVensternaam].remove(vensterinhoud)
actieveVenster.delete(0, END)
print Deleted term '%s' % vensterinhoud
except KeyError:
print No such term '%s' % vensterinhoud
# And return it.
return handleDeletion
If you move the factory outside of your createWidgets function, you will
need to explicitly pass arguments entryWidget, content, etc. to the
factory. Otherwise you can nest the factory inside createWidgets, at it
will pick the variables up automatically.
Hope this helps,
--
Steven
___
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Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi Steven,
Awesome, I've got it working now! Here's the code:
http://pastebin.com/BQhW8piD (I also pasted it below this message).
I tried your approach before but I abandoned it because I made a mistake in
lines 16 (pass None for event) and 22 (I didn't use the parameters of the outer
function as the arguments of the inner function. Thanks a lot for putting me
back on the right track!! It's really working cool now and I was able to remove
some unnecessary code (and I added some bells and whistles ;-))
Cheers!!
Albert-Jan
import Tkinter, time, sys
# To be used in conjunction with the AutocompleteEntry class:
# http://tkinter.unpythonic.net/wiki/AutocompleteEntry
def createWidgets(veldnamen, termenlijst):
root=Tk()
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
labelWidget=Tkinter.Label(root, text=veldnaam, takefocus=False)
labelWidget.grid()
# tcl names must start with a lowercase letter
tclName = veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:]
entryWidget=Tkinter.Entry(root, name=tclName, highlightcolor=yellow)
entryWidget.grid()
makeDeletionHandler(event=None,
widget=entryWidget,
root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst)
def makeDeletionHandler(event, widget, root, termenlijst):
def handleDeletion(event, widget=widget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst):
vensternaam = str(widget)[1:].capitalize()
if vensternaam.startswith(*):
vensternaam = * + vensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud = widget.get().strip()
print Name: %s -- Contents: %s % (vensternaam, vensterinhoud)
try:
termenlijst[vensternaam].remove(vensterinhoud)
widget.delete(0, END)
widget.configure(bg = green)
#print termenlijst
print Deleted term '%s' % vensterinhoud
except KeyError:
print No such term '%s' % vensterinhoud
pass
finally:
delay = 0.5
if sys.platform.lower().startswith(win):
delay = delay * 1000
time.sleep(delay) # Windows: specify in ms!)
widget.configure(bg = white)
widget.bind(Shift-Delete, handleDeletion)
return handleDeletion
createWidgets(veldnamen = [Naam, *Postcode, Adres, *Organization name],
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]),
*Postcode: set([2600AA, 8000BB]),
Adres: set([Street, Avenue]),
*Organization name: set([CWI, MIT])})
~~
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public
order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have
the
Romans ever done for us?
~~
From: Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info
To: Python Mailing List tutor@python.org
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:49:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Albert-Jan Roskam wrote:
Meanwhile, I tinkered a bit more with the code. I used exec() to isolate the
event handler function. It works and it's better, but I think it could be
still
better. I'm not so fond of eval() and exec().
They have their uses, but yes, it's best to avoid them unless you need them.
Let's see if we can avoid them :)
from Tkinter import *
def createWidgets(veldnamen):
root=Tk()
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]),
*Postcode: set([2600AA, 8000BB]),
Adres: set([Street, Avenue])}
handleDeletions = {}
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
labelWidget=Label(root, text=veldnaam, takefocus=False)
labelWidget.grid()
# tcl names must start with a lowercase letter
tclName = veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:]
content = StringVar()
entryWidget=Entry(root, name=tclName, textvariable=content)
entryWidget.grid()
exec(doHandleDeletion())
handleDeletions[entryWidget] = handleDeletion
The classic solution for callbacks is to use lambda, but of course lambda is
limited to a single expression and won't do the job here. So what you need is a
factory function that returns a new function:
handleDeletions[entryWidget] = make_deletion_handler()
and the factory itself is defined something like this:
def make_deletion_handler():
# Create a function.
def handleDeletion(event, widget=entryWidget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst, content=content):
actieveVenster = root.focus_get()
actieveVensternaam = str(actieveVenster)[1:].capitalize()
if actieveVensternaam.startswith(*):
actieveVensternaam = *+actieveVensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud
[Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi,
I'm trying to make a small improvement on a data entry program and it is
literally giving me a headache. I would appreciate your help or suggestions.
The actual program uses Autocomplete entry widgets [1], which is a subclass of
the Tkinter Entry widget. The sample code below uses a simple Entry widget, for
the sake of simplicity. The autocompletions are recorded in a dictionary of the
form {entry name: set(entries)}. The problem is that entries with typos
cannot
be deleted, so wrong autocomplete suggestions (Bbbilly Gates) are given until
the end of time. My solution: I want to bind each entry widget to the Delete
key, which makes it possible to remove the typo-entry from the set of entries.
I
am using an ' expanded event handler' [2] to do the event binding.
The sample code below creates two entry widgets. The problem is that the entry
contents is not retrieved correctly. If I fill the 2nd entry with some text,
then hit 'Del' , it shows the content of the *first* entry. Also, I would like
to isolate the event handler into its own function, not as a function within a
function, but I'm not quite sure how.
[1] http://tkinter.unpythonic.net/wiki/AutocompleteEntry
[2] http://www.daniweb.com/code/snippet306072.html
from Tkinter import *
def createWidgets(veldnamen):
root=Tk()
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]), *Postcode:
set([2600AA, 8000NN])}
handleDels = {}
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
# tcl names must start with lowercase letter
entryWidget=Entry(root, name=veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:])
entryWidget.grid()
def handleDel(event, widget=entryWidget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst):
vensternaam = str(root.focus_get())[1:].capitalize() # ... and back
to uppercase
if vensternaam.startswith(*):# mandatory fields start with
'*'
in my program.
vensternaam = * + vensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud = entryWidget.get()
print Naam, vensternaam # entry name
print Inhoud, vensterinhoud # entry contents
try:
termenlijst[vensternaam].remove(vensterinhoud) # here's where
the typo is removed
except KeyError:
pass # user tries to delete a term that doesn't exist in the
termenlijst.
handleDels[entryWidget] = handleDel
# do all the bindings (is this where it goes wrong??)
for entryWidget, handleDel in handleDels.iteritems():
entryWidget.bind(Delete, handleDel)
print handleDels
print termenlijst
createWidgets([Naam, *Postcode])
Thanks again for having a look at this.
Cheers!!
Albert-Jan
~~
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public
order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have
the
Romans ever done for us?
~~
___
Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Aaahhh, got it! Peace! I did two things wrong: (1) I didn't use a tcl
StringVar() to get the entry widget contents (2) I didn't consistently close
the
menus generated by previous attempts to run the program, which led to
inconsistent results.
I'll paste the working code below. It's partially in Dutch, but hey, so is
Guido
van Rossem. ;-)
Even so, I'd be happy to hear suggestions for improvement or simplification.
I'd
love to chop the code up into smaller, more comprehensible bits.
from Tkinter import *
def createWidgets(veldnamen):
root=Tk()
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]),
*Postcode: set([2600AA, 8000BB]),
Adres: set([Street, Avenue])}
handleDeletions = {}
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
labelWidget=Label(root, text=veldnaam, takefocus=False)
labelWidget.grid()
# tcl names must start with a lowercase letter
tclName = veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:]
content = StringVar()
entryWidget=Entry(root, name=tclName, textvariable=content)
entryWidget.grid()
def handleDeletion(event, widget=entryWidget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst,content=content):
actieveVenster = root.focus_get()
actieveVensternaam = str(actieveVenster)[1:].capitalize()
if actieveVensternaam.startswith(*):
actieveVensternaam = * + actieveVensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud = content.get().strip()
print Name: %s -- Contents: %s % (actieveVensternaam,
vensterinhoud)
try:
termenlijst[actieveVensternaam].remove(vensterinhoud)
actieveVenster.delete(0, END)
print Deleted term '%s' % vensterinhoud
except KeyError:
print No such term '%s' % vensterinhoud
pass
handleDeletions[entryWidget] = handleDeletion
for entryWidget, handleDeletion in handleDeletions.iteritems():
entryWidget.bind(Shift-Delete, handleDeletion)
createWidgets([Naam, *Postcode, Adres])
Cheers!!
Albert-Jan
~~
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public
order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have
the
Romans ever done for us?
~~
From: Albert-Jan Roskam fo...@yahoo.com
To: Python Mailing List tutor@python.org
Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 11:19:02 AM
Subject: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
Hi,
I'm trying to make a small improvement on a data entry program and it is
literally giving me a headache. I would appreciate your help or suggestions.
The actual program uses Autocomplete entry widgets [1], which is a subclass of
the Tkinter Entry widget. The sample code below uses a simple Entry widget, for
the sake of simplicity. The autocompletions are recorded in a dictionary of the
form {entry name: set(entries)}. The problem is that entries with typos
cannot
be deleted, so wrong autocomplete suggestions (Bbbilly Gates) are given until
the end of time. My solution: I want to bind each entry widget to the Delete
key, which makes it possible to remove the typo-entry from the set of entries.
I
am using an ' expanded event handler' [2] to do the event binding.
The sample code below creates two entry widgets. The problem is that the entry
contents is not retrieved correctly. If I fill the 2nd entry with some text,
then hit 'Del' , it shows the content of the *first* entry. Also, I would like
to isolate the event handler into its own function, not as a function within a
function, but I'm not quite sure how.
[1] http://tkinter.unpythonic.net/wiki/AutocompleteEntry
[2] http://www.daniweb.com/code/snippet306072.html
from Tkinter import *
def createWidgets(veldnamen):
root=Tk()
termenlijst = {Naam: set([Bill Gates, Elvis Presley]), *Postcode:
set([2600AA, 8000NN])}
handleDels = {}
for veldnaam in veldnamen:
# tcl names must start with lowercase letter
entryWidget=Entry(root, name=veldnaam[0].lower() + veldnaam[1:])
entryWidget.grid()
def handleDel(event, widget=entryWidget, root=root,
termenlijst=termenlijst):
vensternaam = str(root.focus_get())[1:].capitalize() # ... and back
to uppercase
if vensternaam.startswith(*):# mandatory fields start with
'*'
in my program.
vensternaam = * + vensternaam[1:].capitalize()
vensterinhoud = entryWidget.get()
print Naam, vensternaam # entry name
print Inhoud, vensterinhoud # entry contents
try:
termenlijst[vensternaam].remove(vensterinhoud) # here's where
the typo is removed
except KeyError:
pass # user tries to delete a term
Re: [Tutor] Question on tkinter event binding
On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Albert-Jan Roskam wrote: I'm trying to make a small improvement on a data entry program and it is literally giving me a headache. Followed shortly thereafter with: On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Albert-Jan Roskam wrote: Aaahhh, got it! Peace! ... I'll paste the working code below. It's partially in Dutch, but hey, so is Guido van Rossem. ;-) Once again proving the Zen of Python: import this The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters . . . There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
