Re: [Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’
On 19/02/15 09:51, James Chapman wrote: While MySQL modules are not part of the standard library, consider the following scenario. skill set, maybe he has a job where building an interface to a database would save him and his company a lot of effort, but as MySQL is not part of the standard library he's not really sure how to go about it. If it were a new database he could use Sqlite which is part of the standard library... But that's not really the point :-) on the tutor list have always been willing to help and offer assistance, he thinks, I'll ask there. He asks his question and almost immediately gets told that what he's asking is off topic for the list. Which is exactly the right answer. as a beginner he needs to learn to find the most appropriate forum and ask there. Its part of learning to program. It should be done politely and ideally we should tell him what that other forum is. But any programmer is going to need to learn how to research and locate appropriate information resources. It's just as important as learning a language, and in that sense it's part of this list's remit. One of the things that gives me greatest satisfaction is when I see someone who started out on the tutor list migrate to the main python list and eventually stop participating on this one. It means they have progressed as a programmer. Ideally everyone who starts using this list should, within a couple of years, have stopped asking questions here and moved on to another forum (or become one of the participating 'tutors' perhaps). the list description for a minute there. This list is for folks who want to *ask questions regarding how to learn computer programming with the Python language* and its standard library. Is the installation and usage of 3rd party modules not related to learning to program with python? Not really. You can learn to program with Python effectively without ever using a third party package. In fact in my 20 years of Python I've only really used 4 third party packages - PyWin32, wxPython, BeautifulSoup and Pil/Pillow. Of these I only really use PyWin32 regularly. But it depends on what kind of programming you do. By responding in that manner, you're discouraging the asking of questions. No, you are encouraging the asking of appropriate questions, and the searching for appropriate groups. A new and important skill for the programmer. No one should *_EVER_ *be discouraged to ask a question they do not know the answer to. That's true, but the answer may well be, this is the wrong place to get the answer very common on this list and I think we (collectively) could and should come up with a better way of pointing people in the direction of satisfactory resolution. If the phrasing can be improved then lets have a go. Pointing them to a more effective solution should be the aim. people else where when the question is outside our comfort zone. OO, inheritance and multi-byte string processing, to name a few, are part of learning to program but are easily more advanced topics than which MySQL module to use. But they are appropriate to the tutor list because they are about learning to program. Specific database modules are not. Generic SQL or specific SQLite queries are appropriate because SQL is general programming and SQLite is in the standard library. However, if someone wants to delve into deep detail of how a feature is implemented in Python we would probably point them to the main list too, since it's not about learning how to program at that point. Creating C data structures in python, while part of the standard library, is an example of a topic that is probably too advanced for this list, and even then, I managed to find someone on this list able to help with that topic. Yes, that is probably borderline, since it is arguably part of using ctypes. And its true that we do have several people who can answer wider questions, depending on the question. But it is still better to ask a pool of 100 experts than ask a pool of perhaps 10. And in particular asking a beginner group about any topic can be risky since you often get answers which might work but are not the best way to do it. (This is a big issue on forums like stack overflow where you often see horrible hacks presented when a much better solution is available.) If we discourage people from asking more interesting questions then I suspect that many subscribers will stop subscribing and that knowledge will be lost. The knowledge will be on the forums that specialise in those topics. That's where it should be. As I said above this list is not in the business of acquiring lifetime members, we want people to outgrow it and move on. It's a good sign. A bit like children leaving home. I subscribe to quite a few programming related mailing lists and let me tell you, this one is _BY_FAR_ the most willing to help. That question would very likely have been ignored on other more advanced
Re: [Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’
On 19/02/2015 09:51, James Chapman wrote: Long-ish reply, but please bear with me. To quote the list description This list is for folks who want to ask questions regarding how to learn computer programming with the Python language and its standard library. While MySQL modules are not part of the standard library, consider the following scenario. A person, let's call him Xerxes, is interesting in learning to program in Python. So he does a whole lot of reading, asks a load of questions on this list, he learns the basics. He now thinks to himself, wow, it would be really cool if I could actually do something really useful with my new skill set, maybe he has a job where building an interface to a database would save him and his company a lot of effort, but as MySQL is not part of the standard library he's not really sure how to go about it. Since people on the tutor list have always been willing to help and offer assistance, he thinks, I'll ask there. He asks his question and almost immediately gets told that what he's asking is off topic for the list. Let's jump back to the list description for a minute there. This list is for folks who want to *ask questions regarding how to learn computer programming with the Python language* and its standard library. Is the installation and usage of 3rd party modules not related to learning to program with python? By responding in that manner, you're discouraging the asking of questions. No one should *_EVER_ *be discouraged to ask a question they do not know the answer to. That response that I referred to in my initial response is very common on this list and I think we (collectively) could and should come up with a better way of pointing people in the direction of satisfactory resolution. I also don't think we should immediately point people else where when the question is outside our comfort zone. OO, inheritance and multi-byte string processing, to name a few, are part of learning to program but are easily more advanced topics than which MySQL module to use. Creating C data structures in python, while part of the standard library, is an example of a topic that is probably too advanced for this list, and even then, I managed to find someone on this list able to help with that topic. If we discourage people from asking more interesting questions then I suspect that many subscribers will stop subscribing and that knowledge will be lost. I subscribe to quite a few programming related mailing lists and let me tell you, this one is _BY_FAR_ the most willing to help. That question would very likely have been ignored on other more advanced lists. Finally, I realise I've offered some criticism but not a suggestion for an alternative, so here is an example of a response to a question that would be considered outside the scope of this list: Hi Xerxes Great question. I know there are many options when it comes to MySQL but I've not had any experience with any. Someone else on this list might be able to provide a satisfactory answer, but, as the main focus of this list is learning to program in python using the standard library you might not get an answer, and if you do, the answer might not be very knowledgeable. You could try asking your question on forum X or mailing list Y as these types of topics are often covered there. James ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor IMHO you're talking crap, now can we please move on? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’ (was: mySQL and Python)
Long-ish reply, but please bear with me. To quote the list description This list is for folks who want to ask questions regarding how to learn computer programming with the Python language and its standard library. While MySQL modules are not part of the standard library, consider the following scenario. A person, let's call him Xerxes, is interesting in learning to program in Python. So he does a whole lot of reading, asks a load of questions on this list, he learns the basics. He now thinks to himself, wow, it would be really cool if I could actually do something really useful with my new skill set, maybe he has a job where building an interface to a database would save him and his company a lot of effort, but as MySQL is not part of the standard library he's not really sure how to go about it. Since people on the tutor list have always been willing to help and offer assistance, he thinks, I'll ask there. He asks his question and almost immediately gets told that what he's asking is off topic for the list. Let's jump back to the list description for a minute there. This list is for folks who want to *ask questions regarding how to learn computer programming with the Python language* and its standard library. Is the installation and usage of 3rd party modules not related to learning to program with python? By responding in that manner, you're discouraging the asking of questions. No one should *_EVER_ *be discouraged to ask a question they do not know the answer to. That response that I referred to in my initial response is very common on this list and I think we (collectively) could and should come up with a better way of pointing people in the direction of satisfactory resolution. I also don't think we should immediately point people else where when the question is outside our comfort zone. OO, inheritance and multi-byte string processing, to name a few, are part of learning to program but are easily more advanced topics than which MySQL module to use. Creating C data structures in python, while part of the standard library, is an example of a topic that is probably too advanced for this list, and even then, I managed to find someone on this list able to help with that topic. If we discourage people from asking more interesting questions then I suspect that many subscribers will stop subscribing and that knowledge will be lost. I subscribe to quite a few programming related mailing lists and let me tell you, this one is _BY_FAR_ the most willing to help. That question would very likely have been ignored on other more advanced lists. Finally, I realise I've offered some criticism but not a suggestion for an alternative, so here is an example of a response to a question that would be considered outside the scope of this list: Hi Xerxes Great question. I know there are many options when it comes to MySQL but I've not had any experience with any. Someone else on this list might be able to provide a satisfactory answer, but, as the main focus of this list is learning to program in python using the standard library you might not get an answer, and if you do, the answer might not be very knowledgeable. You could try asking your question on forum X or mailing list Y as these types of topics are often covered there. James ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’
On Feb 19, 2015 2:35 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: IMHO you're talking crap, now can we please move on Agree with second part, Disagree with first ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’
On 2/19/2015 1:51 AM, James Chapman wrote: No one should *_EVER_ *be discouraged to ask a question they do not know have not found the answer to. Learning where to look and how to ask are likely more important skills for a programmer than learning any one specific language. Emile ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’ (was: mySQL and Python)
On Feb 19, 2015 1:51 AM, James Chapman ja...@uplinkzero.com wrote: .. this one is _BY_FAR_ the most willing to help. That question Here, here! ak ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’ (was: mySQL and Python)
James Chapman ja...@uplinkzero.com writes: One of my pet hates about this list... This is a tutor list, your question is out of scope. Sure there might be better places to seek answers, and sure maybe the first responder doesn't know the answer, but that's not a reason to respond with that phrase. You're right to address problematic tone, such as brusqueness. The poster has apologised, so that's acknowledged. That said, the point made is valid: This is not a general-purpose Python discussion forum, so there are many potential threads that are off-topic and should happen elsewhere. This list is a called python tutor, not python beginner, even if the large majority of the questions are beginner questions. The focus of this forum *is* tutoring beginners. The name can't be the sole guide to what's on or off topic, so please don't argue as though it is. The fact that people can ask any python related question is one of the things I like about it and wish that other languages had similar lists. Then you have the wrong forum in mind. While we're not going to boot people out merely for asking “any Python related question”, there are many Python-related topics that are better not discussed here and it's important that we regulars point that out. If you want a more general Python discussion forum, we have one of those too: it's called ‘python-list’, also available via Usenet at ‘comp.lang.python’. So it is evident that your needs are already met :-) -- \“[R]ightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our | `\will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of | _o__) others.” —Thomas Jefferson, 1819 | Ben Finney ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
