Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
I know, way late to the party... Did you try Ctrl-Break? In Windows that is usually how you interrupt a program... ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 17/10/2013 16:36, Bill wrote: I know, way late to the party... Did you try Ctrl-Break? In Windows that is usually how you interrupt a program... Take consolation from the fact that your five-month delay in replying isn't even close to the longest delay I've seen on a Python list. Someone responded, quite coherently and usefully, to a thread which fell within my area of competence. But I hadn't seen the original post go past. I queried the list as to whether there were delivery delays, and someone pointed out that the answer was responding to a post from some *six years* previously! (Which I think I'd answered at the time). TJG ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.infowrote: You can edit *other* people's questions and answers??!??!?? What. The. Hell. The idea is to build an authoritative information resource (in particular, the goal is that the accepted answer to any given question will become the primary result for someone Googling that same question.) So it makes very good sense that both questions and answers can be edited for quality, and the result is (mostly) good. My objection is to people gaming the system - making imperceptible edits like dashes-to-em-dashes - in order to juice their scores. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 26/05/13 17:57, Marc Tompkins wrote: On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.infowrote: You can edit *other* people's questions and answers??!??!?? What. The. Hell. The idea is to build an authoritative information resource (in particular, the goal is that the accepted answer to any given question will become the primary result for someone Googling that same question.) So it makes very good sense that both questions and answers can be edited for quality, and the result is (mostly) good. That's all very well and good when you're dealing with a system like Wikipedia, where edits belong to the entire community, not the person who merely made the edit. But Stackoverflow is specifically in the form of Question/Answer, where both questions and answers are labelled as belonging to the person who made them. Stackoverflow has the form of a conversation, with questions and *replies*. How can you judge the quality of a response when you cannot be sure that the question you are reading is the same question that was answered? Your reputation depends on the relevance of your reply. Change the question, and your perfectly sensible, helpful reply may look like an idiot's waffling: Q: How do I sort a list without using any built-in functions or methods? A: Start at this Wikipedia page, where many different sort-algorithms are listed. # Question gets edited. Q: How do I count the number of 0's, 1's and 2's in a list without using any built-in functions or methods? A: Start at this Wikipedia page, where many different sort-algorithms are listed. And now I look like a first degree moron. By the way, I am not making this scenario up. Read this thread starting here: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-May/647400.html My objection is to people gaming the system - making imperceptible edits like dashes-to-em-dashes - in order to juice their scores. So these edits aren't default-deny, but default-accept? Worse and worse. -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: So these edits aren't default-deny, but default-accept? Worse and worse. It shows who made the edit and when they edited it, which links to the revision history. When a question is closed it shows who voted to close it. Even retagging shows up in the revision history. Also, since it requires a rep of 2000 to edit, generally the system isn't abused. Lower-rep users can suggest an edit, but that goes through a review process. You're notified when someone edits your answer, and you can roll it back to a previous version. However, too many edits causes your post to become community wiki (I think 10 edits by the owner or edits by 5 different users). An answer marked community wiki will no longer earn reputation from up votes, and users with a rep of only 100 have edit privileges. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 6:17 AM, eryksun eryk...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: So these edits aren't default-deny, but default-accept? Worse and worse. It shows who made the edit and when they edited it, which links to the revision history. When a question is closed it shows who voted to close it. Even retagging shows up in the revision history. Also, since it requires a rep of 2000 to edit, generally the system isn't abused. Lower-rep users can suggest an edit, but that goes through a review process. You're notified when someone edits your answer, and you can roll it back to a previous version. However, too many edits causes your post to become community wiki (I think 10 edits by the owner or edits by 5 different users). An answer marked community wiki will no longer earn reputation from up votes, and users with a rep of only 100 have edit privileges. Once again: I think that the end result (high-quality answers to relevant questions) justifies a LOT of unpleasantness along the way; probably eight times ought of ten that I Google a programming question, the best (and often the first) answer ends up being on StackOverflow. In general, the process leads to good quality. It just, unfortunately, lends itself to reputation-gaming, and to useless users appearing far more prominent than they should. The actual damage that those parasites are able to do to the ecosystem is limited, however... except that otherwise-motivated users sometimes get irritated and drop out. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 26 May 2013 15:33, Marc Tompkins marc.tompk...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 6:17 AM, eryksun eryk...@gmail.com wrote: StackOverflow may be good but I just had an unpleasant experience wanting to add New .py file to my Windows context menu. The first advice I saw was missing a backslash and had me adding the string to the wrong key. Thankfully, it didn't work and I figured out what was wrong, so I now have New .py file ;') Bad programming advice is bad enough, but putting up bad advice to edit the Windows registry is Really, Really bad. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 8:25 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: StackOverflow may be good but I just had an unpleasant experience wanting to add New .py file to my Windows context menu. The first advice I saw was missing a backslash and had me adding the string to the wrong key. Thankfully, it didn't work and I figured out what was wrong, so I now have New .py file ;') Bad programming advice is bad enough, but putting up bad advice to edit the Windows registry is Really, Really bad. Did you leave a comment with the correction? ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
Bad programming advice is bad enough, but putting up bad advice to edit the Windows registry is Really, Really bad. Did you leave a comment with the correction? Good point. I wasn't registered on that board but I should go find it. Not that the mistype in that case could possibly cause a registry crash. It just didn't work since a backslash in the path to windows\shellnew was missing, probably due to typing too fast. -- Jim Mooney There are those who see. Those who see when they are shown. And those who do not see. -- Leonardo da Vinci ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.infowrote: On 24/05/13 06:37, Jim Mooney wrote: Apparently Wing isn't as savvy as IDLE when it comes to communicating with the subprocess. I've only searched for about a minute, but apparently the way this works in Wing is to Restart Shell: http://stackoverflow.com/a/**10360503/205580http://stackoverflow.com/a/10360503/205580 http://www.wingware.com/doc/**debug/interactive-python-shellhttp://www.wingware.com/doc/debug/interactive-python-shell This kills the suprocess and starts a new interpreter. Crude, but it should get the job done. Thanks. I'll put stackoverflow on my bookmarks. Beware though, while there are often some very good answers on Stackoverflow, there are also very many people who are nowhere near as knowledgeable as they think, giving terrible answers, and still having large scores. (One particular person comes to mind, I forget his name but he has a *very* high score which means lots of people are voting for his answers, and yet every time without exception I've seen him reply to someone he has been rude, missed the entire point of their question, or given them bad advice. Or all three at once.) I love, love, love StackOverflow (and the whole StackExchange ecosystem), but it's unfortunately susceptible to being gamed. Anyone can edit a question (or an answer), and if the edit is allowed to stand the editor gets 2 points. There are millions of questions, so this process can be repeated ad nauseam. I used to spend a lot of time on english.stackexchange.com, and one of the reasons I got fed up with it is exactly that: unhelpful, opinionated users whose scores were inflated to make them seem authoritative. One of them edited several of my answers, making no change except to turn dashes into Unicode em dashes - and his score was four times higher than mine, despite hardly having any answers accepted (due to being a rude, ignorant loudmouth). I have no problem at all with true experts having higher scores than mine (especially if they answer more questions than I, and do it beautifully) but I came to resent being ranked behind jerks. The system still _mostly_ works, though, and it sure beats the hell out of ExpertSexChange or whatever they're calling it these days... ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 25/05/13 01:11, Marc Tompkins wrote: I love, love, love StackOverflow (and the whole StackExchange ecosystem), but it's unfortunately susceptible to being gamed. Anyone can edit a question (or an answer), and if the edit is allowed to stand the editor gets 2 points. You can edit *other* people's questions and answers??!??!?? What. The. Hell. -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 25 May 2013 04:19, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: You can edit *other* people's questions and answers??!??!?? What. The. Hell. Yes; I think that the idea is that it allows people to fix spelling errors and/or reference mistakes, or maybe add things to clarify something that the answer glossed over to begin with. I'm not entirely sure how it works other than that you can edit answers and it's then moderated by someone -- maybe the person who initially wrote the answer? Or maybe you get moderator rights when reach a certain score. -- best regards, Robert S. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:19 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: You can edit *other* people's questions and answers??!??!?? What. The. Hell. This should be done sparingly for answers. But it's very common for questions since inexperienced users almost always get the markdown wrong. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 May 2013 15:05, eryksun eryk...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: Figured it out. Ctrl-C only works in the Windows Command window, not in an editor. Which IDE? Wing. But not being able to abort out of a Windows program is a feature. You don't want to lose seven hours of spreadsheet work because you forgot and hit ctrl-C. (I just hit Ctrl-C. Nothing, which is as it should be ;') Well, it's good to be reminded that an editor does funny stuff as opposed to command line. Apparently Wing isn't as savvy as IDLE when it comes to communicating with the subprocess. I've only searched for about a minute, but apparently the way this works in Wing is to Restart Shell: http://stackoverflow.com/a/10360503/205580 http://www.wingware.com/doc/debug/interactive-python-shell This kills the suprocess and starts a new interpreter. Crude, but it should get the job done. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Dave Angel da...@davea.name wrote: On 05/22/2013 04:11 PM, Jerry Hill wrote: The KeyboardInterrupt exception is raised when someone presses Ctrl-C. If you catch it, and ignore it (which is what your code above is doing), then pressing Ctrl-C doesn't do anything. If you just take out the try/except, then you can hit Ctrl-C and interrupt your program as normal. What do you mean doesn't do anything ? It certainly terminates the loop, which was the intent. Provided of course that something else isn't trapping the Ctrl-C first. You're quite right. I mis-read the original code as having the try/except inside the loop. The way Jim wrote it was correct. -- Jerry ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
Apparently Wing isn't as savvy as IDLE when it comes to communicating with the subprocess. I've only searched for about a minute, but apparently the way this works in Wing is to Restart Shell: http://stackoverflow.com/a/10360503/205580 http://www.wingware.com/doc/debug/interactive-python-shell This kills the suprocess and starts a new interpreter. Crude, but it should get the job done. Thanks. I'll put stackoverflow on my bookmarks. There is still a difference, though. The program (as corrected below) prints out the last sound heard as a hearing test, if you press Ctrl-C in Idle or the Windows Command Console, but prints nothing if you use Option Restart Shell in Wing 101. Here's the corrected program if anyone wants to test their hearing ;') Oh, as a tip for winusers who have avoided the Win command console, I also did because I thought you had to type in one line at a time. I just found I can right-click paste an entire Py program in (after you start Python). The prog then starts after you hit Enter twice. This is Win 7. import winsound try: for freq in range(100,32000,100): winsound.Beep(freq, 1000) except KeyboardInterrupt: print 'last frequency heard was', freq - 100 exit(0) -- Jim Mooney ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 24/05/13 06:37, Jim Mooney wrote: Apparently Wing isn't as savvy as IDLE when it comes to communicating with the subprocess. I've only searched for about a minute, but apparently the way this works in Wing is to Restart Shell: http://stackoverflow.com/a/10360503/205580 http://www.wingware.com/doc/debug/interactive-python-shell This kills the suprocess and starts a new interpreter. Crude, but it should get the job done. Thanks. I'll put stackoverflow on my bookmarks. Beware though, while there are often some very good answers on Stackoverflow, there are also very many people who are nowhere near as knowledgeable as they think, giving terrible answers, and still having large scores. (One particular person comes to mind, I forget his name but he has a *very* high score which means lots of people are voting for his answers, and yet every time without exception I've seen him reply to someone he has been rude, missed the entire point of their question, or given them bad advice. Or all three at once.) Personally, I think Stackoverflow is a great resource for experienced Python programmers who can separate the wheat from the chaff, but only a moderately okay resource for beginners :-) -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] keyboard interrupt
I made a simple ear frequency-tester, but I don't want it to go on forever, so I tried stopping it when I pressed a key, as below, but that doesn't work. I did check out keyboard interrupts but they seem unnecessarily complex just to stop a program. I'm not passing keys. Is there something simple I'm missing? import winsound try: for freq in range(100,32000,100): winsound.Beep(freq, 1000) except KeyboardInterrupt: pass -- Jim Mooney ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.comwrote: I made a simple ear frequency-tester, but I don't want it to go on forever, so I tried stopping it when I pressed a key, as below, but that doesn't work. I did check out keyboard interrupts but they seem unnecessarily complex just to stop a program. I'm not passing keys. Is there something simple I'm missing? import winsound try: for freq in range(100,32000,100): winsound.Beep(freq, 1000) except KeyboardInterrupt: pass I've not used it myself, but I believe the KeyboadInterrupt is only generated by one _specific_ keypress. You mentioned that you pressed a key - did you try Control-C? http://effbot.org/zone/stupid-exceptions-keyboardinterrupt.htm ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.comwrote: I made a simple ear frequency-tester, but I don't want it to go on forever, so I tried stopping it when I pressed a key, as below, but that doesn't work. I did check out keyboard interrupts but they seem unnecessarily complex just to stop a program. I'm not passing keys. Is there something simple I'm missing? import winsound try: for freq in range(100,32000,100): winsound.Beep(freq, 1000) except KeyboardInterrupt: pass The KeyboardInterrupt exception is raised when someone presses Ctrl-C. If you catch it, and ignore it (which is what your code above is doing), then pressing Ctrl-C doesn't do anything. If you just take out the try/except, then you can hit Ctrl-C and interrupt your program as normal. -- Jerry ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
I've not used it myself, but I believe the KeyboadInterrupt is only generated by one _specific_ keypress. You mentioned that you pressed a key - did you try Control-C? Actually, I did, using Win 7 - and I put exit() in place of pass. I tried ctrl-c, ctrl-x, esc, and del. Windows doesn't seem to respond to anything. The prog just goes to the end Jim ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 22 May 2013 13:24, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: I've not used it myself, but I believe the KeyboadInterrupt is only generated by one _specific_ keypress. You mentioned that you pressed a key - did you try Control-C? Actually, I did, using Win 7 - and I put exit() in place of pass. I tried ctrl-c, ctrl-x, esc, and del. Windows doesn't seem to respond to anything. The prog just goes to the end Jim Figured it out. Ctrl-C only works in the Windows Command window, not in an editor. Jim -- Jim Mooney When I got to high school I realized my name would always present problems. --Dick Hertz ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.comwrote: On 22 May 2013 13:24, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: I've not used it myself, but I believe the KeyboadInterrupt is only generated by one _specific_ keypress. You mentioned that you pressed a key - did you try Control-C? Actually, I did, using Win 7 - and I put exit() in place of pass. I tried ctrl-c, ctrl-x, esc, and del. Windows doesn't seem to respond to anything. The prog just goes to the end Jim Figured it out. Ctrl-C only works in the Windows Command window, not in an editor. That makes a lot of sense. And should be added to the list of responses _next_ time somebody asks Why shouldn't I run production code in IDLE? ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: Figured it out. Ctrl-C only works in the Windows Command window, not in an editor. Which IDE? In IDLE, your code runs in the main thread of a subprocess (unless IDLE is started with the -n option). A second thread (SockThread) is started to communicate with PyShell over a socket. When you press ctrl-c, PyShell executes an interprocess call to interrupt_the_server(), which simply executes thread.interrupt_main() -- i.e. interrupt the main thread with a KeyboardInterrupt: import thread thread.interrupt_main() Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in module KeyboardInterrupt Almost certainly your IDE supports interrupting the execution of code. You just need to configure the key binding. The default binding for ctrl-c on Windows is to copy the selection to the clipboard. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 22 May 2013 15:05, eryksun eryk...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.com wrote: Figured it out. Ctrl-C only works in the Windows Command window, not in an editor. Which IDE? Wing. But not being able to abort out of a Windows program is a feature. You don't want to lose seven hours of spreadsheet work because you forgot and hit ctrl-C. (I just hit Ctrl-C. Nothing, which is as it should be ;') Well, it's good to be reminded that an editor does funny stuff as opposed to command line. Jim ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 05/22/2013 04:11 PM, Jerry Hill wrote: On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.comwrote: I made a simple ear frequency-tester, but I don't want it to go on forever, so I tried stopping it when I pressed a key, as below, but that doesn't work. I did check out keyboard interrupts but they seem unnecessarily complex just to stop a program. I'm not passing keys. Is there something simple I'm missing? import winsound try: for freq in range(100,32000,100): winsound.Beep(freq, 1000) except KeyboardInterrupt: pass The KeyboardInterrupt exception is raised when someone presses Ctrl-C. If you catch it, and ignore it (which is what your code above is doing), then pressing Ctrl-C doesn't do anything. If you just take out the try/except, then you can hit Ctrl-C and interrupt your program as normal. What do you mean doesn't do anything ? It certainly terminates the loop, which was the intent. Provided of course that something else isn't trapping the Ctrl-C first. -- DaveA ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
What do you mean doesn't do anything ? It certainly terminates the loop, which was the intent. Provided of course that something else isn't trapping the Ctrl-C first. It doesn't in Windows proper, using Wing 101. It does exit in the Windows command console. For some reason I forgot ctrl-C is Copy in windows. I tried Ctrl-X but I was again confusing the old DOS abort with Windows Cut. I've been enslaved by the GUI ;') I'm using Wing 101, which doesn't have a feature set for altering that behavior. It's probably in the professional version. If I scrape up spare cash I may go for PyCharm or Wing Pro, but I don't need them on the low end of the learning curve. I'd just waste time fooling with them. The program does exit in Idle, although Idle throws up a Tk screen asking if you want to abort the program, so it's not a clean exit. Jim ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] keyboard interrupt
On 05/22/2013 09:46 PM, Jim Mooney wrote: What do you mean doesn't do anything ? It certainly terminates the loop, which was the intent. Provided of course that something else isn't trapping the Ctrl-C first. It doesn't in Windows proper, using Wing 101. Then Wing is changing the behavior, trapping the Ctrl-C. Not sure why you would call Wing the proper Windows. It does exit in the Windows command console. Of course. For some reason I forgot ctrl-C is Copy in windows. Only to programs that have a GUI event loop which happens to trap the event. That's common in Windows, and is required by the CUA standard (apparently defunct), but it's not the default behavior of a Windows executable. I tried Ctrl-X but I was again confusing the old DOS abort with Windows Cut. I've been enslaved by the GUI ;') I'm using Wing 101, which doesn't have a feature set for altering that behavior. It's probably in the professional version. If I scrape up spare cash I may go for PyCharm or Wing Pro, but I don't need them on the low end of the learning curve. I'd just waste time fooling with them. The program does exit in Idle, although Idle throws up a Tk screen asking if you want to abort the program, so it's not a clean exit. Jim -- DaveA ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
