Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
At Monday 6/8/2015 11:32 AM, you wrote: Hi John, Glyph's discussing the other Mac Mini hosted by the Oregon State University Open Source Lab -- the EGH one is the one we upgraded tonight = to 10.10 and is now our first supported 10.10-py27 builder = (http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/builders/osx10.10-py2.7/builds/6). So = everything's all good with that :) Amber Hawkie Brown GPG: https://keybase.io/hawkowl On 8 Jun 2015, at 21:46, John Santos j...@egh.com wrote: Hi Glyph, Is this the Mac Mini we are hosting for you? Could I help with anything? Thanks -- John Santos Evans Griffiths Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On Jun 8, 2015, at 12:47 PM, John Santos j...@egh.com wrote: At Monday 6/8/2015 11:32 AM, you wrote: Hi John, Glyph's discussing the other Mac Mini hosted by the Oregon State University Open Source Lab -- the EGH one is the one we upgraded tonight = to 10.10 and is now our first supported 10.10-py27 builder = (http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/builders/osx10.10-py2.7/builds/6). So = everything's all good with that :) Amber Hawkie Brown GPG: https://keybase.io/hawkowl On 8 Jun 2015, at 21:46, John Santos j...@egh.com wrote: Hi Glyph, Is this the Mac Mini we are hosting for you? Could I help with anything? Thanks If there were a problem I definitely would have sent a direct email - thank you for keeping an eye on the mailing list though, it's great to know people are paying attention :). -g ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On Jun 8, 2015, at 2:42 AM, Amber Hawkie Brown hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 05:57 am, hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: Hi everyone, As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired. This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email. I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped. So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave. Hi JP, I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued. I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported. I think JP's point is that instead of saying the OS X builder is going away, and if someone steps up there will be another one we should say we will make alternate plans for OS X before shutting off 2.6 support. I'm inclined to agree; if it's not going to be hard to do the upgrade anyway, we should make it a precondition. -glyph ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On 10:30 am, gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: I think that new hardware would still be preferable because this machine is old, slow, overtaxed, and unreliable. For example, it runs Speed Center as well as the OS X builder. We have redundancy in most of our other builders now, which is very useful especially during times of heavy activity, like sprints, where lots of concurrent builds are going on, but this is the sole OS X builder. Another area where redundancy would be nice is when doing upgrades. For example, if the download ever finishes, I'm going to pull the trigger on this Yosemite upgrade, and ... hopefully it works? If it doesn't, we will have zero Mac builders until someone in the data center that is donating hosting can plug a console into that machine and see why it didn't finish booting. There's not really a good way to manage this right now. Finally, it would be nice to actually support multiple pythons on multiple OS versions - all the still supported / updated ones, anyway - and we'd need multiple builders for that. I agree with all of this with one minor caveat - there are currently two OS X slaves: http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/buildslaves/bot-exarkun-1 http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/buildslaves/osuosl-osx10.6 (and incidentally if someone wants to rename the former I think that'd be nice). Jean-Paul ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On Jun 7, 2015, at 10:57 PM, Amber Hawkie Brown hawk...@atleastfornow.net mailto:hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: Hi everyone, As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2015-March/029258.html http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired. This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email. Amber Hawkie Brown GPG: https://keybase.io/hawkowl https://keybase.io/hawkowl I don't think that we covered terrible well why we are dropping support. So I'm going to give my take on this, and if We want Twisted to be available in all kinds of environments. Since it's Twisted's job to let your program talk to the outside world, it's pretty important for you to be able to upgrade it wherever. Heck, we still support Windows XP! Plus, while occasionally annoying, Python 2.6 doesn't impose a significant maintenance burden. So superficially it would seem that we would totally support Python 2.6. However, Python 2.6 is unsupported by the upstream Python maintainers, and given the increasingly hostile threat landscape, inconveniencing ourselves even a little bit to provide the false impression that Python 2.6 is a supported environment where doing new development is OK is not worthwhile. But glyph, I hear my hypothetical interlocutor say, didn't you just say Windows XP isn't supported? surely that's more of a security risk than python 2.6! It's true that Windows XP is a worse security risk, but the difference between XP and 2.6 is that we support Windows XP may bean immutable fact of access to some hardware. According to http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey, roughly 3% of gamers still use Windows XP, and there's no way for someone writing a Steam game to deliver an OS upgrade along with it, because they don't have access to that environment. The best we can do there is hope that those people eventually buy new computers. However, if you're delivering software into a Python 2.6 environment, unless it's an embedded environment without support for 2.7, it is at least to some degree under the your control (by your I mean the software author, which may be an organization where a particular individual who wants to use Twisted doesn't have a say). The only such environment I am aware of is Sublime Text 2, which unfortunately did not upgrade to Python 2.7, but Sublime Text 3, which supports Python 3.3, has been out for over 2 years now. That said, discontinuing Python 2.6 support in this way - simply removing the buildbots and letting people using it on 2.6 eventually start getting syntax errors when they try to import some random module doesn't help to communicate this intent very well. To that end, I'd like to propose that we follow suit with the Cryptography project, and emit a DeprecationWarning in 15.3. When you 'pip install cryptography' into a 2.6 environment today, it says: .../site-packages/cryptography/__init__.py:25: DeprecationWarning: Python 2.6 is no longer supported by the Python core team, please upgrade your Python. We could say something similar, adding something like 16.0 will not support python 2.6 and may not work at all in your application. I don't think it would be worthwhile to do this in every possible unsupported / de-supported environment, but this affects a particularly large audience, many of whom may be ignorant of the issues at stake. https://caremad.io/2015/04/a-year-of-pypi-downloads/ https://caremad.io/2015/04/a-year-of-pypi-downloads/ indicates that roughly 10% of Python users are still stuck on some version of Python 2.6; hopefully Cryptography will be exerting some subtle pressure to get those numbers down. -glyph ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 05:57 am, hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: Hi everyone, As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired. This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email. I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped. So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave. Jean-Paul ___ Twisted-web mailing list twisted-...@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web Hi JP, I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued. I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported. - Amber signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On Jun 8, 2015, at 2:57 AM, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 09:42 am, hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 05:57 am, hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: Hi everyone, As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired. This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email. I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped. So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave. Jean-Paul ___ Twisted-web mailing list twisted-...@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web Hi JP, I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued. I'd be even more confident if you don't disable the Python 2.6 OS X builder until a new Python 2.7 OS X builder is set up. If this turns out to be easy, then nothing has been lost. If it ends up being hard, then it's much better than having a screwed up 15.3. I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported. Once again, I'm not really clear on why the existing build slaves aren't just being upgraded. Why is new hardware required? This prompted me to see if the existing builder could be upgraded. I thought the hardware was unsupported, but I hadn't checked. I think I was wrong, and it is now downloading Yosemite. (For the third time. Trying to do this download on the first day of WWDC may not have been the greatest idea.) I think that new hardware would still be preferable because this machine is old, slow, overtaxed, and unreliable. For example, it runs Speed Center as well as the OS X builder. We have redundancy in most of our other builders now, which is very useful especially during times of heavy activity, like sprints, where lots of concurrent builds are going on, but this is the sole OS X builder. Another area where redundancy would be nice is when doing upgrades. For example, if the download ever finishes, I'm going to pull the trigger on this Yosemite upgrade, and ... hopefully it works? If it doesn't, we will have zero Mac builders until someone in the data center that is donating hosting can plug a console into that machine and see why it didn't finish booting. There's not really a good way to manage this right now. Finally, it would be nice to actually support multiple pythons on multiple OS versions - all the still supported / updated ones, anyway - and we'd need multiple builders for that. -glyph ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On Jun 8, 2015, at 1:32 AM, Glyph gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: I don't think that we covered terrible well why we are dropping support. So I'm going to give my take on this, and if Hm... It's like my mail client decided to do an Undo right before sending. This should say: I don't think we covered terribly well why we are dropping support. So I'm going to give my take on this, and if Hawkie's differs, hopefully she can expand on that. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:57, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 09:42 am, hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 05:57 am, hawk...@atleastfornow.net wrote: Hi everyone, As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired. This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email. I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped. So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave. Jean-Paul ___ Twisted-web mailing list twisted-...@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web Hi JP, I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued. I'd be even more confident if you don't disable the Python 2.6 OS X builder until a new Python 2.7 OS X builder is set up. If this turns out to be easy, then nothing has been lost. If it ends up being hard, then it's much better than having a screwed up 15.3. 15.3 is the last release *with* Python 2.6 support -- that is, the 2.6 builders will be on the supported list until at least 15.3 is released. The goal is that we have both 2.6 and 2.7 on OS X tested before 15.3's release. I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported. Once again, I'm not really clear on why the existing build slaves aren't just being upgraded. Why is new hardware required? I would much prefer to have a new builder to take up the role, migrate the buildslave roles, and then upgrade the existing 10.6 slave once we have something new working. That way, if something goes wrong during the upgrade, we maintain a supported OS X builder. - I think I've been failing at communication a bit -- a prerequisite of dropping 2.6 support has always hinged on getting 2.7 (and optionally 3.3/3.4) builders for platforms that only had 2.6. I have a RHEL7 builder in the wings to get that platform supported, Debian has 7 8 now supported, and there's OS X, which I am confident I can get 2.7 builders set up for before 15.3. - Amber Jean-Paul ___ Twisted-web mailing list twisted-...@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
On Jun 8, 2015, at 3:38 AM, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 10:30 am, gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: I think that new hardware would still be preferable because this machine is old, slow, overtaxed, and unreliable. For example, it runs Speed Center as well as the OS X builder. We have redundancy in most of our other builders now, which is very useful especially during times of heavy activity, like sprints, where lots of concurrent builds are going on, but this is the sole OS X builder. Another area where redundancy would be nice is when doing upgrades. For example, if the download ever finishes, I'm going to pull the trigger on this Yosemite upgrade, and ... hopefully it works? If it doesn't, we will have zero Mac builders until someone in the data center that is donating hosting can plug a console into that machine and see why it didn't finish booting. There's not really a good way to manage this right now. Finally, it would be nice to actually support multiple pythons on multiple OS versions - all the still supported / updated ones, anyway - and we'd need multiple builders for that. I agree with all of this with one minor caveat - there are currently two OS X slaves: http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/buildslaves/bot-exarkun-1 http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/buildslaves/osuosl-osx10.6 (and incidentally if someone wants to rename the former I think that'd be nice). Heh, good to know! Is it possible to remotely administer the latter? Thanks, -glyph ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
Hi John, Glyph's discussing the other Mac Mini hosted by the Oregon State University Open Source Lab -- the EGH one is the one we upgraded tonight to 10.10 and is now our first supported 10.10-py27 builder (http://buildbot.twistedmatrix.com/builders/osx10.10-py2.7/builds/6). So everything's all good with that :) Amber Hawkie Brown GPG: https://keybase.io/hawkowl On 8 Jun 2015, at 21:46, John Santos j...@egh.com wrote: Hi Glyph, Is this the Mac Mini we are hosting for you? Could I help with anything? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] [Twisted-web] Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support
Hi Glyph, Is this the Mac Mini we are hosting for you? Could I help with anything? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
