Possibly, and while it probably works better with internal teams, I think it goes back to what I was saying about it being a partnership approach. Most vendor/customer relationships are not partner at all, they may say it is a partnership, but the nature of the beast dictates otherwise. So if a vendor/customer can have a true partnership and it then I think it can work, it is just a matter of people defining what the project is, committing resources and producing results. Both sides have to buy in though and this is the big culture change for most if not all organisations...
I do quite a lot of work in the BI field these days, and with the right tools we are usually able to deliver solutions quickly in a few days which gives the business user and idea of what they can achieve. To sit down and spec this with them would take a lot of time and effort and will will guarantee 100% there will be changes due to crappy data, missed business logic, or just not understanding what indeed they wanted or what they could achieve. Showing them by doing and pictures...what is it a picture is better than 1000 words...works far better in my experience. Again though the business user has to commit to the process as well and be available and focused in delivering a solution. .... > -----Original Message----- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- > boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen > Sent: Thursday, 15 October 2009 9:30 a.m. > To: 'U2 Users List' > Subject: Re: [U2] Unibasic: Sample Program > > My experience in this is as a software vendor - it can be very > dangerous to > engage with a customer in an agile development - As a vendor we supply > our > packaged product with a certain amount of modification. It is very > important > that such modifications are ring fenced, costed and planned before the > project even starts. i.e. part of the sales discussions. As hinted many > see > agile as somewhat open ended so great care is needed. It probably works > better for internal projects as opposed to a vendor doing enhancements > for a > customer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker > Sent: 14 October 2009 20:56 > To: U2 Users List > Subject: Re: [U2] Unibasic: Sample Program > > I agree, agile and scrum are the way to go.... > > However, this is not just a term for no specifications and an open > ended > project. > > This methodology requires a commitment of time and effort by all > parties, most importantly a dedicated person from the business tied to > the project who has a stake in the project, not just a BA or someone > who > cannot directly or quickly make decisions about what direction or > priorities the project should take. This person, is responsible for > seeing that the project delivers what the business requires quickly and > iteratively...therefore lessoning any chance that is does not deliver > what and when. > > If this happens then the project will deliver what the business > requires > when it is completed. (at least that phase). This in contrast to a lot > off waterfall style projects where the business does not often know > what > they need, at least in detail and so a spec is just a best guess. If > not > then it will take a very long time to get it 99% accurate with no > payback for the business, (it will never be 100% unless the project is > very simple). Consequently, there will always change control issues, > debate about who should pay for the change etc...very unproductive...as > well as a BA who is acting as a translator between IT and the business. > > While a spec, might be technical documentation, it requires a lot of > effort on the part of everyone to write it but more importantly to > maintain it going forward...as I find when the going gets tough and > time > and money is short...documentation is the first to go, a decision made > by who is paying the bills not anyone elses...This is where agile and > scrum come to the fore...however it does require a culture change > within > the entire organization to that of a shared partnership between all > parties striving for the betterment of the business rather than a > confrontational approach which a formal spec signoff/ contract > represents... > > My 2 cents. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- > > boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Brenda Price > > Sent: Thursday, 15 October 2009 8:31 a.m. > > To: U2 Users List > > Subject: Re: [U2] Unibasic: Sample Program > > > > Well, when our company gets this fully implemented. You can count > over > > 250 Highlander's Immortals on the list! > > > > Seriously, check out "agile" and "scrum", it is interesting. > > > > Brenda L Price > > UniVerse Programmer > > Rapid Response Team > > Market America, Inc. > > Greensboro, NC > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- > > > boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Susan Lynch > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:26 PM > > > To: U2 Users List > > > Subject: Re: [U2] Unibasic: Sample Program > > > > > > Ah, it must be lovely to know that you will live forever and will > > never > > > become ill or incapable of working... Eventually, if the company > > does > > > not > > > go out of business, or their business needs change so much that all > > > your > > > code is obsolete, somebody else will have to figure out how the > > system > > > works. > > > > > > A good spec turns into good documentation, which (properly > maintained > > > through all the ensuing changes to the system for the changing > needs > > of > > > the > > > users, of course) is a blessing to the person who follows you. > > > > > > Sounds like we have at least 2 of Highlander's Immortals on the > list! > > > ;-) > > > > > > Susan Lynch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Brutzman, Bill" <bi...@hkmetalcraft.com> > > > To: "U2 Users List" <u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org> > > > Sent: 10/14/2009 3:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: [U2] Unibasic: Sample Program > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John's world is similar to my world here. When I realized that I > > > would > > > > be the only person reading the specs, I stopped writing to > myself. > > > At > > > > the risk of no longer being a professional dinosaur, I learned > that > > > some > > > > people call it "agile". > > > > > > > > Check out... Eckhart Tolle's book "The Power of Now". > > > > > > > > --B > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > U2-Users mailing list > > > > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > > > > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > U2-Users mailing list > > > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > > > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > _______________________________________________ > > U2-Users mailing list > > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > > > _______________________________________________ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > _______________________________________________ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > _______________________________________________ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
