Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Thank you for this, Its good to no, and I agree with all said, its just to me very unfortunet because I don't like the command line, neither do I understand it, I have great respect for all older computer users who noes these things better and who come out of the dos era, as they no of a world wich young guys like me no nothing about. But sorry for my ignoarance, but then if I may ask as I don't no these things wel, is orca then the only screenreader available except for speakup wich is drivvin command line? I mean shouldn't we also need perhaps more third party access software if ubuntu won't incorperate one in their system? I also never new that firefox didn't work wel on mac, intresting. On 06/01/2013, B. Henry burt1ib...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, you can have the eloquence voices on Linux systems. There are packages built for DebianUbuntu, and I know that people have it working on other distros as well, probably from the same tarballs, but don't remember for sure. Try googling Voxin or oralux. (I may have the spelling wrong on that last one) Anyway, the same ibmtts that is used by eloquence and ibmviavoice is used by voxin. It's refferred to as ibmtts in speechdispatcher configuration files. The voices cost $5 per language. They work with both speechdispatcher and emacspeak speech servers. There's a special installation package that configures your system to be able to use the voices with emacspeak that is updated as new releases of Debian and Ubuntu come out. I have used the Spanish voices as espeak doesn't sound good at all with Spanish. I'm tired/not looking for urls nor writing very well right now, but write me off list and I can hook you up with more information if you have any trouble finding these voices. Orca, and speakup for that matter have nothing to do with Ubuntu, or at least no more is Ubuntu responsible for their development than is Microsoft responsible for NVDA, Jaws or any other windows screen-reader. I will say that Orca's only been around for about a third of the time that jaws and window-eyes have more or less. NVDA does for sure give a better experience in most cases than does Orca, but if you are willing to do a fair amount of your computing on the command line I find that you can make up for some of the shortcomings with GUI accessibility in Linux. Any conparisons are OT for this thread anyway, and really OT for this list, so I'll just leave it there except for saying that I think most of us are glad to see improvements in access for any and all platforms. I certainly want to have as many options as possible. I for one do %95 of my computing on Linux, but I wish it were more practical for me to use Linux for that other %5, and I wish I was more efficient for some tasks I do under Linux that I could sometimes do faster on a windows machine. Regards, -- B.H. On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 09:51:11PM +0200, Aidan Maher wrote: Wel, I am stil learning this thing, but I don't see how I can get away from windows, I mean we don't even have elliquence in linux systems, neither half of the functions jaws can offer, but very true that ubuntu is a great system and I agree with all said that it must be taken much more seriously. I just think that many people should not be blamed if they stil use windows as there are reasons for that. A balance is always helthy. On 05/01/2013, B. Henry burt1ib...@gmail.com wrote: Terrible! I am appauled reading that your msg was marked spam. Sadly, your friends and you are in the majority of blind computer users in deciding that Windows meets their needs better than current Linux realeases due to the lack of major progress of accessibility.i There is no doubt that as far as web-browsing goes NVDA/firefox gives a muuch better experience on most web-pages than does any browser with Linux screenreading options. I'd go as far as to say that NVDA/firefox is the gold standard for accessible web-browsing. There's also no doubt that web-browsers are if not the most important programs on most computers they are one of the most used and most indespensible pieces of software for the majority of users. This is close to as true for blind users as it is for the population in general, and I think that I'm not alone when I say that it is very hard to continue to be pasient waiting on an acceptable level of web-browser accessibility. The ball is not in Ubuntu's court in general here, but as is said below at the very least it is important to fast track the inclusion of latest accessibility software in to Ubuntu. I think I'm correct in saying that it's a scramble to get the LTS releases minimally accessible when first deamed ready for production use. When major accessibility bugs are still not fixed when the LTS comes out of beta this says to me that Canical needs to dedicate more resources to making Ubuntu usable by blind users. I'd like to see mid-term Ubuntu
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
What do you mean by the statement ... also need perhaps more third party access software if ubuntu won't incorporate one in their system? Orca is included with Ubuntu and Speakup is built into the kernel used by Ubuntu. Are you referring to the Ubuntu Phone or the Voxin text to speech engine? Ubuntu and the Mac OS's are the only two OS's I know about where a blind person can install the OS with no sighted assistance. I agree with the statement below that Canonical isn't responsible for Orca, but I think Canonical has more to do with Orca than MS has with NVDA, JAWS, Window Eyes and so on. I know MS has contributed to NVDA and provides technical information to the screen reader vendors, but Canonical does have an employee contributing to Orca and Orca is included in the Ubuntu desktop OS. On 01/06/2013 04:14 AM, Aidan Maher wrote: Thank you for this, Its good to no, and I agree with all said, its just to me very unfortunet because I don't like the command line, neither do I understand it, I have great respect for all older computer users who noes these things better and who come out of the dos era, as they no of a world wich young guys like me no nothing about. But sorry for my ignoarance, but then if I may ask as I don't no these things wel, is orca then the only screenreader available except for speakup wich is drivvin command line? I mean shouldn't we also need perhaps more third party access software if ubuntu won't incorperate one in their system? I also never new that firefox didn't work wel on mac, intresting. On 06/01/2013, B. Henry burt1ib...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, you can have the eloquence voices on Linux systems. There are packages built for DebianUbuntu, and I know that people have it working on other distros as well, probably from the same tarballs, but don't remember for sure. Try googling Voxin or oralux. (I may have the spelling wrong on that last one) Anyway, the same ibmtts that is used by eloquence and ibmviavoice is used by voxin. It's refferred to as ibmtts in speechdispatcher configuration files. The voices cost $5 per language. They work with both speechdispatcher and emacspeak speech servers. There's a special installation package that configures your system to be able to use the voices with emacspeak that is updated as new releases of Debian and Ubuntu come out. I have used the Spanish voices as espeak doesn't sound good at all with Spanish. I'm tired/not looking for urls nor writing very well right now, but write me off list and I can hook you up with more information if you have any trouble finding these voices. Orca, and speakup for that matter have nothing to do with Ubuntu, or at least no more is Ubuntu responsible for their development than is Microsoft responsible for NVDA, Jaws or any other windows screen-reader. I will say that Orca's only been around for about a third of the time that jaws and window-eyes have more or less. NVDA does for sure give a better experience in most cases than does Orca, but if you are willing to do a fair amount of your computing on the command line I find that you can make up for some of the shortcomings with GUI accessibility in Linux. Any conparisons are OT for this thread anyway, and really OT for this list, so I'll just leave it there except for saying that I think most of us are glad to see improvements in access for any and all platforms. I certainly want to have as many options as possible. I for one do %95 of my computing on Linux, but I wish it were more practical for me to use Linux for that other %5, and I wish I was more efficient for some tasks I do under Linux that I could sometimes do faster on a windows machine. Regards, -- B.H. On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 09:51:11PM +0200, Aidan Maher wrote: Wel, I am stil learning this thing, but I don't see how I can get away from windows, I mean we don't even have elliquence in linux systems, neither half of the functions jaws can offer, but very true that ubuntu is a great system and I agree with all said that it must be taken much more seriously. I just think that many people should not be blamed if they stil use windows as there are reasons for that. A balance is always helthy. On 05/01/2013, B. Henry burt1ib...@gmail.com wrote: Terrible! I am appauled reading that your msg was marked spam. Sadly, your friends and you are in the majority of blind computer users in deciding that Windows meets their needs better than current Linux realeases due to the lack of major progress of accessibility.i There is no doubt that as far as web-browsing goes NVDA/firefox gives a muuch better experience on most web-pages than does any browser with Linux screenreading options. I'd go as far as to say that NVDA/firefox is the gold standard for accessible web-browsing. There's also no doubt that web-browsers are if not the most important programs on most computers they are one of the most used and most indespensible pieces of software for the majority of users. This is close to as true
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Great ideas and thoughts here, folks. To put my words in context, I've used Linux since Slackware '96 which, as its name implies, was released in 1996. I started using GNOME accessibility in the Gnopernicus days, and at the moment it is my full-time operating system of choice. However, my experience under Windows and NVDA is making me sit up and take notice. Firefox works very well. Similarly, I can run Chrome and, gods forbid, IE reasonably well. I have a level of choice that I don't seem to under Linux, and there are other areas in which Windows is excelling for me. I'm not saying that it's the best choice, or the right choice for everyone. I'm just starting to give it a serious look, because the latest state of having to reboot multiple times per day under Ubuntu because accessibility is behaving oddly is starting to get to me. I hope that this discussion leads to someone taking up this cause. I did some soul-searching over the last two days, and am not the one to take this up--if all this talk of diplomacy and catching more flies with honey is what people want, that is. Having pushed and advocated and developed for Android for the past few years, I'm burned out on the access fight, and no longer have much diplomacy left in me. Best of luck. On 01/05/2013 06:12 PM, Kyle wrote: The spam system is completely automated and Akismet has been known to mark quite a large number of false positives, so having a comment of any kind marked by Akismet as spam is not at all uncommon. Having said this, I'm not sure where the perception comes in that non-free operating systems provide a better accessibility experience, or how that perception will help further our cause. I have been using GNOME+Orca+free GNU/Linux operating systems exclusively since 2009, and I can't say that my experience with accessibility has been even close to unfavorable, and it has improved quite rapidly just over the past year, since I now have a level of access to qt applications that I never even dreamed possible just 2 years ago, and that level of qt accessibility far surpasses the level of qt accessibility on Apple computers and devices, not to mention the fact that Firefox can't be made to work with VoiceOver on a Mac, which is a state I find extremely sad, albeit typical, from a company who continually receives the highest praise for its lackluster accessibility performance. On the Microsoft side, accessibility is also taking backsteps, as Windows 8 is a nightmare, and is in fact seen by many Windows users, as a complete joke as relating to accessibility, as well as many other aspects of the OS. Does Canonical need to devote more resources to the expansion of the accessibility team and the improvement of the accessibility stac? Absolutely. Does accessibility need to be a primary concern for any OS or desktop or smart phone environment? No question. But the best way to make it known that this is a requirement is not by telling developers and companies that it's sad that their competitor does abc better when in fact, their competitor has bigger problems with xyz. Rather, the best way to raise awareness of what we need in an accessibility stack and a team of developers working on it is simply letting them know that accessibility is a major requirement for any OS or interface, letting them know what improvements are needed that would help us to be able to use the OS or interface better, and contributing to development of the codebase if possible, which is something that can *never* happen on a non-free operating system where even error reports fall on deaf ears. ~Kyle http://kyle.tk/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Whether you advocate for greater accessibility in Ubuntu or not is a decision only you can make. I would not interpret the responses of two or three people though to be all this talk of diplomacy and catching more flies with honey is what people want. First, two or three people is not all of this talk or what people want, it's just the opinions of two or three people on a relatively low traffic list. Don't blow it out of proportion. For my part, the only point I made was that I don't consider Unity or Ubuntu Phone to be trivial or flashy. I think these were hard efforts involving quite a few people in an effort to make Ubuntu more popular, running on more devices and in the hands of more people. I know people have criticized Unity for being dumbed down, but I don't know what that means, and I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to make Ubuntu more popular and get it used by more people. Obviously, if you want to use the argument that Canonical is spending resources on bright new shiny things instead of accessibility then that will strike a chord with some Ubuntu and Unity critics, but I'm not sure it'll sway the decision makers at Canonical. I also wouldn't be too worried about what I or are other people think. The goal here is to get Ubuntu more accessible in all of it's releases and on all of the platforms where it's supported. If that means using honey then that's what should be done, if it means using vinegar then that's the way to go. I prefer honey myself, but I know there's a need for vinegar too. If you're not comfortable being diplomatic, political or tactful, but you want to fight for more accessibility in Ubuntu then do what you're comfortable with. At my previous employer, I got into quite a few debates with another blind person. I thought he was a bit hysterical at times and made outlandish claims. We debated quite a bit on our internal mailing list. I was surprised though when I found out how much he was appreciated by those working on accessibility within the company. I thought my more balanced and reasonable approach would have been more appreciated, but I found out that in the accessibility community you need the radicals, those calling out to man the barricades and the squeaky wheels. For my part, I hope you take up the fight, and I hope you don't take the fact that I'm a different person with a different approach as a reason not to take up the fight yourself. On 01/06/2013 08:21 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote: Great ideas and thoughts here, folks. To put my words in context, I've used Linux since Slackware '96 which, as its name implies, was released in 1996. I started using GNOME accessibility in the Gnopernicus days, and at the moment it is my full-time operating system of choice. However, my experience under Windows and NVDA is making me sit up and take notice. Firefox works very well. Similarly, I can run Chrome and, gods forbid, IE reasonably well. I have a level of choice that I don't seem to under Linux, and there are other areas in which Windows is excelling for me. I'm not saying that it's the best choice, or the right choice for everyone. I'm just starting to give it a serious look, because the latest state of having to reboot multiple times per day under Ubuntu because accessibility is behaving oddly is starting to get to me. I hope that this discussion leads to someone taking up this cause. I did some soul-searching over the last two days, and am not the one to take this up--if all this talk of diplomacy and catching more flies with honey is what people want, that is. Having pushed and advocated and developed for Android for the past few years, I'm burned out on the access fight, and no longer have much diplomacy left in me. Best of luck. On 01/05/2013 06:12 PM, Kyle wrote: The spam system is completely automated and Akismet has been known to mark quite a large number of false positives, so having a comment of any kind marked by Akismet as spam is not at all uncommon. Having said this, I'm not sure where the perception comes in that non-free operating systems provide a better accessibility experience, or how that perception will help further our cause. I have been using GNOME+Orca+free GNU/Linux operating systems exclusively since 2009, and I can't say that my experience with accessibility has been even close to unfavorable, and it has improved quite rapidly just over the past year, since I now have a level of access to qt applications that I never even dreamed possible just 2 years ago, and that level of qt accessibility far surpasses the level of qt accessibility on Apple computers and devices, not to mention the fact that Firefox can't be made to work with VoiceOver on a Mac, which is a state I find extremely sad, albeit typical, from a company who continually receives the highest praise for its lackluster accessibility performance. On the Microsoft side, accessibility is also taking backsteps, as Windows 8 is a nightmare, and is in
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Thanks, Chris. To be clear, my feelings about wanting to step back aren't due to your thoughts, or to those of any on this list. I'm sorry if my writing makes it appear otherwise, and I appreciate that you shared what you did. I develop apps for Android. At the moment my big hobby project is accessible GPS navigation based on OpenStreetMap, and with a level of spoken detail similar to what would be found on pricier GPS solutions. I'd like to keep building this out, with the very long-term goal of using it in sailboat navigation. Android is a cool platform, but I just grew tired of battling the JVM, Android's extensive customization of same, and all the assorted limitations thereof. I've also encountered unscientific and anecdotal evidence that native code generally runs faster and eats less battery than does the JVM. I'd really hoped to port these apps to Ubuntu, to leave Android behind, and to develop on what I feel to be a superior platform. Never mind if the audience is smaller; I do this for the love of it. So it hurts deep down that this doesn't look possible, and that there's no clear and apparent way to encourage Canonical to step up its efforts. Unity isn't trivial, and I never meant to imply that it was. But it's shiny, in the way that putting a nice paint job on a not-as-well-maintained car is shiny. And I don't see Canonical caring all that much about access, which is one of those areas in which the car isn't kept up. Canonical puts so much effort into encouraging developers and users to its platform. It hurts that the disabled community seems like an afterthought. I remember being here with Android in '09. I'm just not sure that I'm ready to be here again so soon. On 01/06/2013 09:52 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: Whether you advocate for greater accessibility in Ubuntu or not is a decision only you can make. I would not interpret the responses of two or three people though to be all this talk of diplomacy and catching more flies with honey is what people want. First, two or three people is not all of this talk or what people want, it's just the opinions of two or three people on a relatively low traffic list. Don't blow it out of proportion. For my part, the only point I made was that I don't consider Unity or Ubuntu Phone to be trivial or flashy. I think these were hard efforts involving quite a few people in an effort to make Ubuntu more popular, running on more devices and in the hands of more people. I know people have criticized Unity for being dumbed down, but I don't know what that means, and I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to make Ubuntu more popular and get it used by more people. Obviously, if you want to use the argument that Canonical is spending resources on bright new shiny things instead of accessibility then that will strike a chord with some Ubuntu and Unity critics, but I'm not sure it'll sway the decision makers at Canonical. I also wouldn't be too worried about what I or are other people think. The goal here is to get Ubuntu more accessible in all of it's releases and on all of the platforms where it's supported. If that means using honey then that's what should be done, if it means using vinegar then that's the way to go. I prefer honey myself, but I know there's a need for vinegar too. If you're not comfortable being diplomatic, political or tactful, but you want to fight for more accessibility in Ubuntu then do what you're comfortable with. At my previous employer, I got into quite a few debates with another blind person. I thought he was a bit hysterical at times and made outlandish claims. We debated quite a bit on our internal mailing list. I was surprised though when I found out how much he was appreciated by those working on accessibility within the company. I thought my more balanced and reasonable approach would have been more appreciated, but I found out that in the accessibility community you need the radicals, those calling out to man the barricades and the squeaky wheels. For my part, I hope you take up the fight, and I hope you don't take the fact that I'm a different person with a different approach as a reason not to take up the fight yourself. On 01/06/2013 08:21 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote: Great ideas and thoughts here, folks. To put my words in context, I've used Linux since Slackware '96 which, as its name implies, was released in 1996. I started using GNOME accessibility in the Gnopernicus days, and at the moment it is my full-time operating system of choice. However, my experience under Windows and NVDA is making me sit up and take notice. Firefox works very well. Similarly, I can run Chrome and, gods forbid, IE reasonably well. I have a level of choice that I don't seem to under Linux, and there are other areas in which Windows is excelling for me. I'm not saying that it's the best choice, or the right choice for everyone. I'm just starting to give it a serious look,
