Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Couldn't have said it better myself. On 01/07/2013 06:21 PM, Kyle wrote: > QT accessibility in Linux still has a long way to go. I'm not denying > this. However, giving credit where credit is due, QT accessibility has > made major improvements, going from near zero just 2 years ago to > something that in many cases is mostly usable, and even surpasses the > level of QT accessibility in other operating systems today, and most > of these improvements have happened within the last 4 months. There > are also reports that qt-at-spi, the plugin responsible for making QT > work with Orca and the accessibility stack, will be included in the > core of QT version 5, hopefully due out this year. If I'm jumping the > gun, let me know, but I have read this in several places. > > Accessibility is something I fight for every day in many aspects of my > daily life; I do need it after all. Having said this, it is extremely > important to give credit where it is due, to file informed bug reports > when something isn't working correctly and to contribute code and > financial resources if possible, rather than just fussing andd whining > that something isn't accessible, ABC developers don't care about > accessibility, or XYZ Company's product works better, without > providing meaningful insight into what we need to work and how it can > work better for us, and where improvements and increases in resources > devoted to accessibility can help to make something easier for us to > use. Keep in mind that a lack of accessibility features in > applications and operating systems is generally not caused by > developers or companies not caring. After all, how many blind, > visually impaired or otherwise disabled developers, who know exactly > what they need, actually work to develop the applications and > operating systems we use every day? How many more of us don't > necessarily know how to code, but can put into simple terms exactly > what we need an application, OS or interface to do in what situations > that can help us use it more effectively? Many of us can probably > educate developers about our needs and how to best meet them, but most > of us just whine and scream on e-mail lists about how much better XYZ > is or how little ABC's devs seem to care about accessibility, without > providing any meaningful feedback. It's enough to make most developers > want to give up; I know I would. However, when meaningful discussions > take place between developers and end-users, when developers are made > aware of our needs and how best to meet them, and when we have the > patience to explain concepts that are difficult for people who don't > have certain physical disabilities to understand, our access to more > operating systems, interfaces and applications will begin increasing > quite rapidly, because we will be recognizing the fact that developers > are in fact human beings, and developers and the companies who employ > them will recognize that we are also human beings. > ~Kyle > http://kyle.tk/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
QT accessibility in Linux still has a long way to go. I'm not denying this. However, giving credit where credit is due, QT accessibility has made major improvements, going from near zero just 2 years ago to something that in many cases is mostly usable, and even surpasses the level of QT accessibility in other operating systems today, and most of these improvements have happened within the last 4 months. There are also reports that qt-at-spi, the plugin responsible for making QT work with Orca and the accessibility stack, will be included in the core of QT version 5, hopefully due out this year. If I'm jumping the gun, let me know, but I have read this in several places. Accessibility is something I fight for every day in many aspects of my daily life; I do need it after all. Having said this, it is extremely important to give credit where it is due, to file informed bug reports when something isn't working correctly and to contribute code and financial resources if possible, rather than just fussing andd whining that something isn't accessible, ABC developers don't care about accessibility, or XYZ Company's product works better, without providing meaningful insight into what we need to work and how it can work better for us, and where improvements and increases in resources devoted to accessibility can help to make something easier for us to use. Keep in mind that a lack of accessibility features in applications and operating systems is generally not caused by developers or companies not caring. After all, how many blind, visually impaired or otherwise disabled developers, who know exactly what they need, actually work to develop the applications and operating systems we use every day? How many more of us don't necessarily know how to code, but can put into simple terms exactly what we need an application, OS or interface to do in what situations that can help us use it more effectively? Many of us can probably educate developers about our needs and how to best meet them, but most of us just whine and scream on e-mail lists about how much better XYZ is or how little ABC's devs seem to care about accessibility, without providing any meaningful feedback. It's enough to make most developers want to give up; I know I would. However, when meaningful discussions take place between developers and end-users, when developers are made aware of our needs and how best to meet them, and when we have the patience to explain concepts that are difficult for people who don't have certain physical disabilities to understand, our access to more operating systems, interfaces and applications will begin increasing quite rapidly, because we will be recognizing the fact that developers are in fact human beings, and developers and the companies who employ them will recognize that we are also human beings. ~Kyle http://kyle.tk/ -- "Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?" Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie" -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
I agree with this sentiment. I'd only nit pick a few points. Canonical isn't making money at all yet, let alone with Ubuntu Phone. That being said, accessibility needs to be built in from the get though, and it can't wait until Canonical is profitable or making money off of Ubuntu Phone. I don't think Canonical is investing much in QT accessibility, but I know there are members of the Ubuntu community working on QT accessibility. It isn't perfect yet, but we have accessibility to some QT apps in Ubuntu 12.04, and Unity 2D, which is accessible, was written in QT. I'm not sure why you're stepping back from this thread, but hopefully, you'll continue to advocate for greater accessibility. On 07/01/13 15:15, Nolan Darilek wrote: > And yes, I agree, things are getting better. I never said they weren't, > nor have I said that they were bad. My primary point is that we're > seeing *lots* of companies backing QT for mobile accessibility, > Canonical being the latest of those, and we aren't seeing any commitment > by those companies to accessibility. I'm saying that, for me, > Windows-based AT is starting to look more and more appealing because I > do have increased access. And, for the record, I am testing out the more > recent access tech than is available in Ubuntu packages, thanks for > asking. But if companies are going to start making money off of Linux, > and are going to urge consumers to jump ship from their > Android/Windows/IOS devices, the time to advocate for accessibility > *isn't* after said products have taken off. It's now. "Good enough for > me" isn't always good enough for everyone. There are plenty for whom a > Linux text console is good enough. It'd really suck if those people > blasted those of you who used GNOME/X because Lynx wasn't acceptable for > you. So when some of us come along and say "sure, things are great and > are getting better, but these other solutions are starting to look a lot > more compelling to us," that has nothing to do with *your* needs or > *your* choice to run what *you* want. > > And with that I'm stepping back from this thread, and will not read > public or private responses. Either the community steps up and starts > speaking out strongly for Canonical to up its accessibility game, or it > doesn't. > > > On 01/07/2013 03:04 PM, kendell clark wrote: >> I will say this though. Orca is *much* better than it was even a year >> ago. I started using linux when it was at v 3.2.0 and it has improved >> a lot, especially in the area of web browsing. Is it perfect? no but >> what access tech is, especially computers where a simple coding error >> can render an app inaccessible. If I must be honest, I think and >> probably always will taht without a money insentive, or a threat of >> legal action, most devs including companies put little or no thought >> towards accessibility. Yes we have the orca devs, and we have vinux, >> but they can't do everything and without cooperation from the major >> desktops gnome, xfce, etc they can't solve the problem on their own. >> Bug reports seem to sit unsolved for months, even years, while sighted >> problems get fixed fairly quickly. If there was a catastrophic bug >> that caused the screens on all desktops and laptops to go off, and >> wouldn't come back on, there would be a massive outcry. If the >> response from the dev community was meh, we'll fix it sooner or later, >> people would flock to windows, or mac, or whatever offered the fix. >> That's how accessiblity is imo. YOu can flame me if you like but >> that's my opinion. I love linux and I love orca and firefox but I'm >> trying to be realistic and I just don't think that many people care >> about a11y. There are people, but not nearly enough, imo. I can't >> code, and documentation on accessiility is sparse or non existent, >> making it difficult for anyone not familiar with gnome to dive in. >> On 01/07/2013 02:51 PM, kendell clark wrote: >>> ouch. Pms, maybe? >>> On 01/07/2013 02:49 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote: First, please confirm which versions of Firefox and Orca I am using. Since you know so much about my environment, I look forward to your abilities in this regard. Second, please justify why the fact that a given choice works for you is a good reason why that choice must be for everyone. I at no point said that you must use Windows or criticized your choices, so perhaps it would be wise not to criticize mine, or to criticize me when I claim that Windows suits my needs better. If you're happy with what you have now, fine. Be happy with it. But do step aside when others aren't and try to make things better. We're not trying to put *you* down or call *you* out, after all. On 01/07/2013 02:14 PM, Kyle wrote: > I do lots of things with my computer using Linux. Granted, my > primary distro is Arch Linux rather than Ubuntu, so I get all the > latest stuff as soon as it's released, b
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
And yes, I agree, things are getting better. I never said they weren't, nor have I said that they were bad. My primary point is that we're seeing *lots* of companies backing QT for mobile accessibility, Canonical being the latest of those, and we aren't seeing any commitment by those companies to accessibility. I'm saying that, for me, Windows-based AT is starting to look more and more appealing because I do have increased access. And, for the record, I am testing out the more recent access tech than is available in Ubuntu packages, thanks for asking. But if companies are going to start making money off of Linux, and are going to urge consumers to jump ship from their Android/Windows/IOS devices, the time to advocate for accessibility *isn't* after said products have taken off. It's now. "Good enough for me" isn't always good enough for everyone. There are plenty for whom a Linux text console is good enough. It'd really suck if those people blasted those of you who used GNOME/X because Lynx wasn't acceptable for you. So when some of us come along and say "sure, things are great and are getting better, but these other solutions are starting to look a lot more compelling to us," that has nothing to do with *your* needs or *your* choice to run what *you* want. And with that I'm stepping back from this thread, and will not read public or private responses. Either the community steps up and starts speaking out strongly for Canonical to up its accessibility game, or it doesn't. On 01/07/2013 03:04 PM, kendell clark wrote: I will say this though. Orca is *much* better than it was even a year ago. I started using linux when it was at v 3.2.0 and it has improved a lot, especially in the area of web browsing. Is it perfect? no but what access tech is, especially computers where a simple coding error can render an app inaccessible. If I must be honest, I think and probably always will taht without a money insentive, or a threat of legal action, most devs including companies put little or no thought towards accessibility. Yes we have the orca devs, and we have vinux, but they can't do everything and without cooperation from the major desktops gnome, xfce, etc they can't solve the problem on their own. Bug reports seem to sit unsolved for months, even years, while sighted problems get fixed fairly quickly. If there was a catastrophic bug that caused the screens on all desktops and laptops to go off, and wouldn't come back on, there would be a massive outcry. If the response from the dev community was meh, we'll fix it sooner or later, people would flock to windows, or mac, or whatever offered the fix. That's how accessiblity is imo. YOu can flame me if you like but that's my opinion. I love linux and I love orca and firefox but I'm trying to be realistic and I just don't think that many people care about a11y. There are people, but not nearly enough, imo. I can't code, and documentation on accessiility is sparse or non existent, making it difficult for anyone not familiar with gnome to dive in. On 01/07/2013 02:51 PM, kendell clark wrote: ouch. Pms, maybe? On 01/07/2013 02:49 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote: First, please confirm which versions of Firefox and Orca I am using. Since you know so much about my environment, I look forward to your abilities in this regard. Second, please justify why the fact that a given choice works for you is a good reason why that choice must be for everyone. I at no point said that you must use Windows or criticized your choices, so perhaps it would be wise not to criticize mine, or to criticize me when I claim that Windows suits my needs better. If you're happy with what you have now, fine. Be happy with it. But do step aside when others aren't and try to make things better. We're not trying to put *you* down or call *you* out, after all. On 01/07/2013 02:14 PM, Kyle wrote: I do lots of things with my computer using Linux. Granted, my primary distro is Arch Linux rather than Ubuntu, so I get all the latest stuff as soon as it's released, but I don't use Windows, except the very rare times when I need to print something, because I have yet to purchase a good printer, at which times I use a left-over XP install on a 10-year-old box. I browse many websites on my Linux box using Orca and Firefox, and I use no other browser, not even Chrome+ChromeVox. I have nothing against trying different things, but I tend to stick with what works, and Firefox+Orca works quite well here. I have yet to find a website that is impossible to navigate, with the exception of Flash content, which is more miss than hit on any browser in any OS. Yes, the times I still have to use Windows for printing, I find NVDA to be quite usable, but if making Firefox+Orca more usable for others means converting to a clunky virtual buffer system that doesn't handle dynamic content well, and cludgy work-arounds like lists of links, then I'll hold off on t
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
On 01/07/2013 02:51 PM, kendell clark wrote: ouch. Pms, maybe? Nope, just my zero tact and diplomacy rearing its head. If people like their choices, then great. More power to them. But I have a short fuse with being criticized for daring to question the status quo, or for implying that something else does a better job for me in some instances. And besides...ouch. Misogynistic, maybe? -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
First, please confirm which versions of Firefox and Orca I am using. Since you know so much about my environment, I look forward to your abilities in this regard. Second, please justify why the fact that a given choice works for you is a good reason why that choice must be for everyone. I at no point said that you must use Windows or criticized your choices, so perhaps it would be wise not to criticize mine, or to criticize me when I claim that Windows suits my needs better. If you're happy with what you have now, fine. Be happy with it. But do step aside when others aren't and try to make things better. We're not trying to put *you* down or call *you* out, after all. On 01/07/2013 02:14 PM, Kyle wrote: I do lots of things with my computer using Linux. Granted, my primary distro is Arch Linux rather than Ubuntu, so I get all the latest stuff as soon as it's released, but I don't use Windows, except the very rare times when I need to print something, because I have yet to purchase a good printer, at which times I use a left-over XP install on a 10-year-old box. I browse many websites on my Linux box using Orca and Firefox, and I use no other browser, not even Chrome+ChromeVox. I have nothing against trying different things, but I tend to stick with what works, and Firefox+Orca works quite well here. I have yet to find a website that is impossible to navigate, with the exception of Flash content, which is more miss than hit on any browser in any OS. Yes, the times I still have to use Windows for printing, I find NVDA to be quite usable, but if making Firefox+Orca more usable for others means converting to a clunky virtual buffer system that doesn't handle dynamic content well, and cludgy work-arounds like lists of links, then I'll hold off on the downgr ... I mean upgrade, thank you very much. Yes, Firefox and the way Orca works with it could be improved, and this is happening. But saying that you'd rather use Windows for web browsing because you haven't even tried the latest versions of either Orca or Firefox is utterly ridiculous. So before spouting and spitting about how accessibility needs to improve, first start by trying the latest versions of things, so that you can file more informed bug reports based on the newest, dare I say shiniest, technology. ~Kyle http://kyle.tk/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Well said. On 01/07/2013 03:14 PM, Kyle wrote: > I do lots of things with my computer using Linux. Granted, my primary > distro is Arch Linux rather than Ubuntu, so I get all the latest stuff > as soon as it's released, but I don't use Windows, except the very > rare times when I need to print something, because I have yet to > purchase a good printer, at which times I use a left-over XP install > on a 10-year-old box. I browse many websites on my Linux box using > Orca and Firefox, and I use no other browser, not even > Chrome+ChromeVox. I have nothing against trying different things, but > I tend to stick with what works, and Firefox+Orca works quite well > here. I have yet to find a website that is impossible to navigate, > with the exception of Flash content, which is more miss than hit on > any browser in any OS. Yes, the times I still have to use Windows for > printing, I find NVDA to be quite usable, but if making Firefox+Orca > more usable for others means converting to a clunky virtual buffer > system that doesn't handle dynamic content well, and cludgy > work-arounds like lists of links, then I'll hold off on the downgr ... > I mean upgrade, thank you very much. > > Yes, Firefox and the way Orca works with it could be improved, and > this is happening. But saying that you'd rather use Windows for web > browsing because you haven't even tried the latest versions of either > Orca or Firefox is utterly ridiculous. So before spouting and spitting > about how accessibility needs to improve, first start by trying the > latest versions of things, so that you can file more informed bug > reports based on the newest, dare I say shiniest, technology. > ~Kyle > http://kyle.tk/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
I do lots of things with my computer using Linux. Granted, my primary distro is Arch Linux rather than Ubuntu, so I get all the latest stuff as soon as it's released, but I don't use Windows, except the very rare times when I need to print something, because I have yet to purchase a good printer, at which times I use a left-over XP install on a 10-year-old box. I browse many websites on my Linux box using Orca and Firefox, and I use no other browser, not even Chrome+ChromeVox. I have nothing against trying different things, but I tend to stick with what works, and Firefox+Orca works quite well here. I have yet to find a website that is impossible to navigate, with the exception of Flash content, which is more miss than hit on any browser in any OS. Yes, the times I still have to use Windows for printing, I find NVDA to be quite usable, but if making Firefox+Orca more usable for others means converting to a clunky virtual buffer system that doesn't handle dynamic content well, and cludgy work-arounds like lists of links, then I'll hold off on the downgr ... I mean upgrade, thank you very much. Yes, Firefox and the way Orca works with it could be improved, and this is happening. But saying that you'd rather use Windows for web browsing because you haven't even tried the latest versions of either Orca or Firefox is utterly ridiculous. So before spouting and spitting about how accessibility needs to improve, first start by trying the latest versions of things, so that you can file more informed bug reports based on the newest, dare I say shiniest, technology. ~Kyle http://kyle.tk/ -- "Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?" Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie" -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Hi KK and all, I certainly was not trying to suggest that writing about Windows should be anyone's focus in their interactions with Canonical execs, or any Linux devs. On the other hand howeverknowing that others have managed to make important bits accessible lets folks know that they need to find a way to give access to these same functions whether in similar or quite different ways. I'm not saying that ORCA should try and be NVDA anymore than I think NVDA should have tried to be jaws or Hal. At any rate these comments were part of an internal discussion between users of access tech, not my ideas as to what anyone should say to Mark Shuttleworth, or Orca devs in case that was not clear. I'd hope it would be sufficient to say that Orca needs to have a way to clear its buffers and speak where one actually is on a page instead of reading everything that the cursor has passed over, or perhaps that's not the right way to explain it, but anyway instead of saying that I want Orca to work like other screen readers manage to do and have done for years. It is important to say thank you. Sure, some people don't really care, but many, I reckon most do; and I always try to do so, and I try to find something possitive to say even when expressing major concerns or noting serious improvements that are needed and while some people will prefer you get to the point in as few a words as is possible I think the thank yous usually are worth the extra characters. Lastly, while I'm a serious supporter of FOS, it's unfair and just wrong to say that no one who makes proprietary software cares about what people ask for, even accessibility. Some do and will, many don't and probably never will. Same's true for FOS devs. I'll always choose FOS if all is equal as far as functionality and efficiency and then some. I won't do with out or spend twice as long doing something on a regular basis just to say I only use free software. Sure I can't afford some useful proprietary programs that exist, and others may not be able to even afford the $5 that a good Spanish voice costs for Linux, but I won't choose to starve to death because there's someone in the world who can't afford the price of their next meal. I'd be better off studying programming instead of commenting on such debates perhaps, but for the moment I do have a vague idea how to express myself so I'm doing so. I guess I mostly want to say that anyone who has subscribed to this list has an interest in Ubuntu and accessibility and I don't think the big decission makers at Canonical do read this list, but even if they do I don't see how the discussion would do anything but show them where things really stand; at least in the minds of many of the people who use and might use their products. Read my emial headers and you'll see I'm writing and pretty mucfh always do from a Linux box, usually a Ubuntu or Vinux built on Ubuntu box. I'm sold, but things can change. Let's make them change for the better, not slowly slip away from us. And sorry, I know I wasn't going to continue to post on this, but I've not heard from Krishnakant for a while and instinct got the better of me...lol. Regards, -- B.H. On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 11:33:01PM +0530, Krishnakant Mane wrote: > +1 Kyle, > And I would say the work has been awsome and Ubuntu 12.04 fits my > bill very wel. > I would take this opportunity to strongly urge all users to be > positively critical and instead of saying what is great about > Windows or any closed software for that matter, better tell > developers what is required. > I would go one step ahead and say, one encouragement for developers > is to tell them what even your favorite non-free OS and software > does not have and that you wished it was there in Orca/ Ubuntu/ what > ever. > This helps because proprietary fokes are not going to listen any > ways, FOSS hackers do. > happy hacking. > Krishnakant. > On 01/07/2013 11:20 PM, B. Henry wrote: > >I don't see how it's so hard, or detramental to your points to remove the > >shiny stuff line from a comment is hard, or in anyway takes away from the > >force of what you are saying; butt burnout is burnout. > >I wouldn't have even written to say that. I will say that you have just > >discovered or admitted or something what many, probably most people feel > >regarding accessible-web-browsing. For me, nvda&firefox is the current gold > >standard for web-browsing with a screenreader. Chrome is certainly usable > >with nvda as well, and chromevox adds another option although keystroke > >conflicts make that a harder than it should be. And yes, nvda works very > >well with ie as well and will get you access to some pages and content that > >don't work with other browsers in an accessible way. From what this > >non-coder understands there are basic accessibility infrastructure reasons > >that some things are easier to do under windows than under Linux, but no > >matter what NVDA
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Re chromevox key-remappings, just goes to show how little I use Windows. I already handled my keymapping issues in LInux by remapping my gnome shortcuts. As you know I'm well aware of how Vinux has been doing things, but if the work that is going on now is as it has been portrayed on the difficulty scale then I do think it is sad that this was not handled in time for the Precise release. Also, even though yes switching PA to system mode is relatively trivial as you say, Ubuntu is trying to make a Linux that's out of the box usable by inexperienced humans, and if they can make it out of the box usable by blind humans in more ways than they have with a few more man hours of work then I'd give this a pretty high priority. Goes to show that there are differences between even the pragmatic wing of the accessibility advocay crowd...smiles. On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 12:03:41PM -0600, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > Check out the latest version of ChromeVox, it was just released in the > last few days, it again allows you to set the ChromeVox key, and has > more key mapping options, and just handles remapping of keys much more > slickly! It doesn't eliminate the issue of key map collisions, but it > does a lot to mitigate this issue. > > Also, the issue of switching between the command line and GUI has been > around for quite a while. Vinux 3.x got around it by running PulseAudio > in system mode, which creates some security concerns. > > The work arounds to get speech working in both the command line and the > GUI as you jump back and forth between the two are pretty trivial. I > personally wouldn't push this too high on the Ubuntu accessibility queue. > > On 07/01/13 11:50, B. Henry wrote: > > I don't see how it's so hard, or detramental to your points to remove the > > shiny stuff line from a comment is hard, or in anyway takes away from the > > force of what you are saying; butt burnout is burnout. > > I wouldn't have even written to say that. I will say that you have just > > discovered or admitted or something what many, probably most people feel > > regarding accessible-web-browsing. For me, nvda&firefox is the current gold > > standard for web-browsing with a screenreader. Chrome is certainly usable > > with nvda as well, and chromevox adds another option although keystroke > > conflicts make that a harder than it should be. And yes, nvda works very > > well with ie as well and will get you access to some pages and content that > > don't work with other browsers in an accessible way. From what this > > non-coder understands there are basic accessibility infrastructure reasons > > that some things are easier to do under windows than under Linux, but no > > matter what NVDA is an impressive, I'd even say amazing, (awesome...lol.) > > program/project! > > The beauty of Linux, its flexibilitly/range of choice, specifically > > multiple desktop environments, means that for the blind person to have > > anywhere near the range of options that a sighted person has developers of > > multiple projects must think about accessibility. This means that the devs' > > hearts and minds must be in the right place as I doubt there's enough > > economic incentive to go around to be had from the blind-user market. > > OK, so it's unlikely that all the major desktops will be recoded so that > > accessibility is given a high priority, but it's ashamed that Mozilla and > > Orca can't or don't work together more; enough to give us a high quality > > experience navigating the range of websites that we are likely to encounter > > day in and day out. > > If web-browsing was all I did with my computer then no matter that my heart > > is with Linux I'd not be able to justify using GNU-Linux as my primary OS. > > Honestly, the browsing-experience on Linux is just not in the same league > > with what's available on Windows. On Windows I can do almost everything > > with Firefox, or IE if that was what I wanted to use, and seldom need to > > change browsers or screenreaders. I could get at almost everything I want > > to between these two browsers, and with one or two aditional browsers can > > get at a few of the bits that don't currently work with NVDA. Using Linux, > > as I do, as my primary OS I need to use a combination of Lynx and Firefox > > and for a few sites chrome/chromevox to approach the browsing efficiency > > i'D have if I used Windows. This means I need to know where I'm going when > > I start a browsing session so that I can pick the best browser or perhaps > > have to copy an url and switch browsers. Also it requires practice to have > > a decent experience with firefox. > Some things I can do and not have any problem on a windows box are a mess > with firefox/Orca such as using up and down arrows to get somewhere on a a > webpage. If I press the arrow a bit to long and go past my goal I havwe to > wait till Orca catches up and speech stops before changing directi
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Agreed as is often the case. I will say that vinegar's fine, but well applied. Take that how you as the readers will...lol. I just want to add that no one has to take the lead, or decide they want to take the lead to be of value in the fight. And if it turns out not to be a fight and more of a discussion then there is a God! We who care should all try and do a little. If your heart, mind and energy level make you able to do more then please consider doing so, but I suspect that a hundred more or less well thought out from the heart emails from a hundred different people are worth much more than a few people trying to say it all, whether tactfully or not. If a more hardline radical line is what is in your heart then that is where your words need to come from. The "good cop/bad cop" approach is often needed in this world. Again, there's so much to do that there's plenty of work for everyone! Regards, and hope to see lots of others commenting other places. -- B.H. On Sun, Jan 06, 2013 at 09:52:12PM -0600, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > Whether you advocate for greater accessibility in Ubuntu or not is a > decision only you can make. I would not interpret the responses of > two or three people though to be "all this talk of diplomacy and > catching more flies with honey is what people want". First, two or > three people is not all of this talk or what people want, it's just > the opinions of two or three people on a relatively low traffic > list. Don't blow it out of proportion. > > For my part, the only point I made was that I don't consider Unity > or Ubuntu Phone to be trivial or flashy. I think these were hard > efforts involving quite a few people in an effort to make Ubuntu > more popular, running on more devices and in the hands of more > people. I know people have criticized Unity for being dumbed down, > but I don't know what that means, and I'm not sure why it's a bad > thing to make Ubuntu more popular and get it used by more people. > Obviously, if you want to use the argument that Canonical is > spending resources on bright new shiny things instead of > accessibility then that will strike a chord with some Ubuntu and > Unity critics, but I'm not sure it'll sway the decision makers at > Canonical. > > I also wouldn't be too worried about what I or are other people > think. The goal here is to get Ubuntu more accessible in all of it's > releases and on all of the platforms where it's supported. If that > means using honey then that's what should be done, if it means using > vinegar then that's the way to go. I prefer honey myself, but I know > there's a need for vinegar too. If you're not comfortable being > diplomatic, political or tactful, but you want to fight for more > accessibility in Ubuntu then do what you're comfortable with. > > At my previous employer, I got into quite a few debates with another > blind person. I thought he was a bit hysterical at times and made > outlandish claims. We debated quite a bit on our internal mailing > list. I was surprised though when I found out how much he was > appreciated by those working on accessibility within the company. I > thought my more balanced and reasonable approach would have been > more appreciated, but I found out that in the accessibility > community you need the radicals, those calling out to man the > barricades and the squeaky wheels. > > For my part, I hope you take up the fight, and I hope you don't take > the fact that I'm a different person with a different approach as a > reason not to take up the fight yourself. > > On 01/06/2013 08:21 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote: > >Great ideas and thoughts here, folks. > > > >To put my words in context, I've used Linux since Slackware '96 which, > >as its name implies, was released in 1996. I started using GNOME > >accessibility in the Gnopernicus days, and at the moment it is my > >full-time operating system of choice. > > > >However, my experience under Windows and NVDA is making me sit up and > >take notice. Firefox works very well. Similarly, I can run Chrome and, > >gods forbid, IE reasonably well. I have a level of choice that I don't > >seem to under Linux, and there are other areas in which Windows is > >excelling for me. I'm not saying that it's the best choice, or the right > >choice for everyone. I'm just starting to give it a serious look, > >because the latest state of having to reboot multiple times per day > >under Ubuntu because accessibility is behaving oddly is starting to get > >to me. > > > >I hope that this discussion leads to someone taking up this cause. I did > >some soul-searching over the last two days, and am not the one to take > >this up--if all this talk of diplomacy and catching more flies with > >honey is what people want, that is. Having pushed and advocated and > >developed for Android for the past few years, I'm burned out on the > >access fight, and no longer have much diplomacy left in me. Best of luck. > > > > > >On 01/05/2013 06:12 PM, Kyle w
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Check out the latest version of ChromeVox, it was just released in the last few days, it again allows you to set the ChromeVox key, and has more key mapping options, and just handles remapping of keys much more slickly! It doesn't eliminate the issue of key map collisions, but it does a lot to mitigate this issue. Also, the issue of switching between the command line and GUI has been around for quite a while. Vinux 3.x got around it by running PulseAudio in system mode, which creates some security concerns. The work arounds to get speech working in both the command line and the GUI as you jump back and forth between the two are pretty trivial. I personally wouldn't push this too high on the Ubuntu accessibility queue. On 07/01/13 11:50, B. Henry wrote: > I don't see how it's so hard, or detramental to your points to remove the > shiny stuff line from a comment is hard, or in anyway takes away from the > force of what you are saying; butt burnout is burnout. > I wouldn't have even written to say that. I will say that you have just > discovered or admitted or something what many, probably most people feel > regarding accessible-web-browsing. For me, nvda&firefox is the current gold > standard for web-browsing with a screenreader. Chrome is certainly usable > with nvda as well, and chromevox adds another option although keystroke > conflicts make that a harder than it should be. And yes, nvda works very > well with ie as well and will get you access to some pages and content that > don't work with other browsers in an accessible way. From what this non-coder > understands there are basic accessibility infrastructure reasons that some > things are easier to do under windows than under Linux, but no matter what > NVDA is an impressive, I'd even say amazing, (awesome...lol.) > program/project! > The beauty of Linux, its flexibilitly/range of choice, specifically multiple > desktop environments, means that for the blind person to have anywhere near > the range of options that a sighted person has developers of multiple > projects must think about accessibility. This means that the devs' hearts and > minds must be in the right place as I doubt there's enough economic incentive > to go around to be had from the blind-user market. > OK, so it's unlikely that all the major desktops will be recoded so that > accessibility is given a high priority, but it's ashamed that Mozilla and > Orca can't or don't work together more; enough to give us a high quality > experience navigating the range of websites that we are likely to encounter > day in and day out. > If web-browsing was all I did with my computer then no matter that my heart > is with Linux I'd not be able to justify using GNU-Linux as my primary OS. > Honestly, the browsing-experience on Linux is just not in the same league > with what's available on Windows. On Windows I can do almost everything with > Firefox, or IE if that was what I wanted to use, and seldom need to change > browsers or screenreaders. I could get at almost everything I want to between > these two browsers, and with one or two aditional browsers can get at a few > of the bits that don't currently work with NVDA. Using Linux, as I do, as my > primary OS I need to use a combination of Lynx and Firefox and for a few > sites chrome/chromevox to approach the browsing efficiency i'D have if I used > Windows. This means I need to know where I'm going when I start a browsing > session so that I can pick the best browser or perhaps have to copy an url > and switch browsers. Also it requires practice to have a decent experience > with firefox. Some things I can do and not have any problem on a windows box are a mess with firefox/Orca such as using up and down arrows to get somewhere on a a webpage. If I press the arrow a bit to long and go past my goal I havwe to wait till Orca catches up and speech stops before changing direction. Even pressing the arrow too long can mean getting text repeated and again having to wait till things settle down to get an idea as to where I am. I could go in to much more detail and explain several similar problem s that make the learning curve much steeper for the blind-Linux-using web-browserk, not to mention many sites that just don't work, or don't give access to important content that's no problem under Windows. Even after over two years using Linux %95 of the time I still find myself clicking on the wrong link or button because I've not waited long enough for Orca to finish speaking or sometimes because it doesn't speak what's in focus. I'm taking a look at ELinks now as it has some jav a script support and other options that may mean I can do more browsing from the command line. > > Some of this would not be so troublesome on more powerful computers, but I > don't know just how much difference a faster box with more cores and RAM > would make. I'm also using older Ubuntu with gnome2 which means I'm not
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
I don't see how it's so hard, or detramental to your points to remove the shiny stuff line from a comment is hard, or in anyway takes away from the force of what you are saying; butt burnout is burnout. I wouldn't have even written to say that. I will say that you have just discovered or admitted or something what many, probably most people feel regarding accessible-web-browsing. For me, nvda&firefox is the current gold standard for web-browsing with a screenreader. Chrome is certainly usable with nvda as well, and chromevox adds another option although keystroke conflicts make that a harder than it should be. And yes, nvda works very well with ie as well and will get you access to some pages and content that don't work with other browsers in an accessible way. From what this non-coder understands there are basic accessibility infrastructure reasons that some things are easier to do under windows than under Linux, but no matter what NVDA is an impressive, I'd even say amazing, (awesome...lol.) program/project! The beauty of Linux, its flexibilitly/range of choice, specifically multiple desktop environments, means that for the blind person to have anywhere near the range of options that a sighted person has developers of multiple projects must think about accessibility. This means that the devs' hearts and minds must be in the right place as I doubt there's enough economic incentive to go around to be had from the blind-user market. OK, so it's unlikely that all the major desktops will be recoded so that accessibility is given a high priority, but it's ashamed that Mozilla and Orca can't or don't work together more; enough to give us a high quality experience navigating the range of websites that we are likely to encounter day in and day out. If web-browsing was all I did with my computer then no matter that my heart is with Linux I'd not be able to justify using GNU-Linux as my primary OS. Honestly, the browsing-experience on Linux is just not in the same league with what's available on Windows. On Windows I can do almost everything with Firefox, or IE if that was what I wanted to use, and seldom need to change browsers or screenreaders. I could get at almost everything I want to between these two browsers, and with one or two aditional browsers can get at a few of the bits that don't currently work with NVDA. Using Linux, as I do, as my primary OS I need to use a combination of Lynx and Firefox and for a few sites chrome/chromevox to approach the browsing efficiency i'D have if I used Windows. This means I need to know where I'm going when I start a browsing session so that I can pick the best browser or perhaps have to copy an url and switch browsers. Also it requires practice to have a decent experience with firefox. Some things I can do and not have any problem on a windows box are a mess with firefox/Orca such as using up and down arrows to get somewhere on a a webpage. If I press the arrow a bit to long and go past my goal I havwe to wait till Orca catches up and speech stops before changing direction. Even pressing the arrow too long can mean getting text repeated and again having to wait till things settle down to get an idea as to where I am. I could go in to much more detail and explain several similar problem s that make the learning curve much steeper for the blind-Linux-using web-browserk, not to mention many sites that just don't work, or don't give access to important content that's no problem under Windows. Even after over two years using Linux %95 of the time I still find myself clicking on the wrong link or button because I've not waited long enough for Orca to finish speaking or sometimes because it doesn't speak what's in focus. I'm taking a look at ELinks now as it has some java script support and other options that may mean I can do more browsing from the command line. Some of this would not be so troublesome on more powerful computers, but I don't know just how much difference a faster box with more cores and RAM would make. I'm also using older Ubuntu with gnome2 which means I'm not using the latest Orca as the xdesktop branch is no longer developed, but I've not heard many people say that their firefox experience is much better with latest Orca. I use Linux in spite of the browsing experience because I like most everything about it much better than Windows. There are notable accessibility issues besides browsing, and there are bright spots even with browsing such as surfraw and googleizer. Chromevox has a lot of potential. Someone who's not a tinkerer or not comfortable on the command line should probably not consider Linux as their primary OS at this point unfortunately. This post has been mostly about web-browsing. I don't think this is something that Ubuntu devs can do much about how firefox or other browsers work with Orca, so I really will stop going down this discussion path this time. To make one on-top
Re: Here it is...Ubuntu Phone
Yes, very grue, what I ment is that if orca or anything else wich comes with ubuntu does not improve enough that there should be another option available even if it does not come with ubuntu. But yes orca came a long way it seems. On 07/01/2013, Nolan Darilek wrote: > Thanks, Chris. > > To be clear, my feelings about wanting to step back aren't due to your > thoughts, or to those of any on this list. I'm sorry if my writing makes > it appear otherwise, and I appreciate that you shared what you did. > > I develop apps for Android. At the moment my big hobby project is > accessible GPS navigation based on OpenStreetMap, and with a level of > spoken detail similar to what would be found on pricier GPS solutions. > I'd like to keep building this out, with the very long-term goal of > using it in sailboat navigation. > > Android is a cool platform, but I just grew tired of battling the JVM, > Android's extensive customization of same, and all the assorted > limitations thereof. I've also encountered unscientific and anecdotal > evidence that native code generally runs faster and eats less battery > than does the JVM. > > I'd really hoped to port these apps to Ubuntu, to leave Android behind, > and to develop on what I feel to be a superior platform. Never mind if > the audience is smaller; I do this for the love of it. So it hurts deep > down that this doesn't look possible, and that there's no clear and > apparent way to encourage Canonical to step up its efforts. > > Unity isn't trivial, and I never meant to imply that it was. But it's > shiny, in the way that putting a nice paint job on a > not-as-well-maintained car is shiny. And I don't see Canonical caring > all that much about access, which is one of those areas in which the car > isn't kept up. Canonical puts so much effort into encouraging developers > and users to its platform. It hurts that the disabled community seems > like an afterthought. > > I remember being here with Android in '09. I'm just not sure that I'm > ready to be here again so soon. > > > On 01/06/2013 09:52 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: >> Whether you advocate for greater accessibility in Ubuntu or not is a >> decision only you can make. I would not interpret the responses of two >> or three people though to be "all this talk of diplomacy and catching >> more flies with honey is what people want". First, two or three people >> is not all of this talk or what people want, it's just the opinions of >> two or three people on a relatively low traffic list. Don't blow it >> out of proportion. >> >> For my part, the only point I made was that I don't consider Unity or >> Ubuntu Phone to be trivial or flashy. I think these were hard efforts >> involving quite a few people in an effort to make Ubuntu more popular, >> running on more devices and in the hands of more people. I know people >> have criticized Unity for being dumbed down, but I don't know what >> that means, and I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to make Ubuntu more >> popular and get it used by more people. Obviously, if you want to use >> the argument that Canonical is spending resources on bright new shiny >> things instead of accessibility then that will strike a chord with >> some Ubuntu and Unity critics, but I'm not sure it'll sway the >> decision makers at Canonical. >> >> I also wouldn't be too worried about what I or are other people think. >> The goal here is to get Ubuntu more accessible in all of it's releases >> and on all of the platforms where it's supported. If that means using >> honey then that's what should be done, if it means using vinegar then >> that's the way to go. I prefer honey myself, but I know there's a need >> for vinegar too. If you're not comfortable being diplomatic, political >> or tactful, but you want to fight for more accessibility in Ubuntu >> then do what you're comfortable with. >> >> At my previous employer, I got into quite a few debates with another >> blind person. I thought he was a bit hysterical at times and made >> outlandish claims. We debated quite a bit on our internal mailing >> list. I was surprised though when I found out how much he was >> appreciated by those working on accessibility within the company. I >> thought my more balanced and reasonable approach would have been more >> appreciated, but I found out that in the accessibility community you >> need the radicals, those calling out to man the barricades and the >> squeaky wheels. >> >> For my part, I hope you take up the fight, and I hope you don't take >> the fact that I'm a different person with a different approach as a >> reason not to take up the fight yourself. >> >> On 01/06/2013 08:21 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote: >>> Great ideas and thoughts here, folks. >>> >>> To put my words in context, I've used Linux since Slackware '96 which, >>> as its name implies, was released in 1996. I started using GNOME >>> accessibility in the Gnopernicus days, and at the moment it is my >>> full-time operating system of choice. >
