Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
Hello Attila, Am 10.03.2012 11:10, schrieb Hammer Attila: It appears that with the latest update this morning menues are mostly working. I have just installed the Daily Build (in german) of Ubuntu 12.04 in Virtualbox and I finde the menus of the following programms still inaccessable. Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Thunderbird Terminal and the menu in the right top corner with the time and the Username on it. If I muve down with the arrow-key in the menü orca says allways something like Controll Menu subject not selectet. Oddly enough Orca recognizes the sort cuts for the menu item e. g for print it says CTRL+P or for paste it says CTRL+V. If there a menu item has a supmenu Orca says only menu If I go into the Supmenu Orca responds in the same way as in the menu item without submenu Forther I am not abel to go into the menu by pressing F10. In Unity 2D it is worse. In Unity 2D Orca don't recognizes the menus at all. Orca is mute in the Menu of above programms. Orca seem to be ok with the Menu of Libreoffice. I don't know wether the installation in the Virtualbox is cause the problem. If it is helpfull I can use ubuntu 12.04 of tuday as a live-CD to to be sure that Virtualbox don't cause the problems. best regards Petra Ritter PS: Sorry Attila I didn't want to send the latest mail to you. It should go to the list -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
(In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
Hello, my colleague is using current Precise with Orca and Unity 2D and is encountering the following problems: 1. In 2D, if you open the menu using Alt+letter (e.g. Alt+S for Soubor in Czech, could be Alt+F for File in English), it does not announce menu item names when navigating left/right and up/down. 2. In 3D, neither Dash (Alt+F2) nor Launcher (Alt+F1) are accessible (you can navigate them, but no speech) Luke mentioned for some of these problems that patch exists or is even coming some time ago (approx. half of February), but the problems above still persist. Can I find some of those patches anywhere so that I can make a patched version of Unity? Or better, are those patches coming in some updated unity package for Precise? Thanks and best regards, Boris Dušek BRAILCOM,o.p.s. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
Ugh! We get to this point in every release, where there are patches for a whole bunch of issues that take forever to land. Meanwhile, testers can't examine the new release to see what new issues were revealed after the fixing of the old. So there's no accessibility *test* cycle, just a bunch of bugs that go away after it's too late to address the newly-revealed ones. Meanwhile, accessibility users aren't confident in the newer betas, as even the final release can contain major issues that block productive use. This isn't a slam on Luke, but on Canonical. If Canonical is pushing out Ubuntu for Android, surely they can put more accessibility people on the Ubuntu project, especially as it rolls out everywhere. It's going to be *more* important to have a highly accessible Ubuntu if it runs on my phone, tablet and TV. Canonical is in an awesome position to fix this once and have it run across the board, yet I only see Luke addressing patches and other volunteers occasionally popping in to remark on things. Seems I've asked this before, but whom do we have to ask to get Canonical to put more people on the accessibility team as they surely are doing so for mobile/TV development? Is there some process other than posting to this list again to better let our voices be heard? When folks patch these accessibility issues, those patches should land in a short timeframe. As of now I'm on 11.04 because 11.10 had accessibility issues I couldn't live with, and 12.04 is shaping up to be the same. Unfortunately, Firefox is moving on, and I'm experiencing focus stickage/accessibility hangs that aren't likely to be fixed because I'm on GNOME 2.32, and I can't see things getting better as Firefox rockets onward, either. If I don't get feedback on how to approach Canonical, I'll put up and promote a change.org petition before the week is out. We need to get more people helping Luke ASAP, especially as I for one don't want to get left behind when Ubuntu lands on Android. Canonical, please stop deprioritizing accessibility. 11.10 was a transitional release that was highly broken in many respects. Blind users at least can't wait until 12.10 for an Ubuntu with speaking menus, speaking notifications and access to content in Ubuntu's default mail client. On 03/06/2012 04:39 AM, Boris Dušek wrote: Hello, my colleague is using current Precise with Orca and Unity 2D and is encountering the following problems: 1. In 2D, if you open the menu using Alt+letter (e.g. Alt+S for Soubor in Czech, could be Alt+F for File in English), it does not announce menu item names when navigating left/right and up/down. 2. In 3D, neither Dash (Alt+F2) nor Launcher (Alt+F1) are accessible (you can navigate them, but no speech) Luke mentioned for some of these problems that patch exists or is even coming some time ago (approx. half of February), but the problems above still persist. Can I find some of those patches anywhere so that I can make a patched version of Unity? Or better, are those patches coming in some updated unity package for Precise? Thanks and best regards, Boris Dušek BRAILCOM,o.p.s. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
totally agree, and sharing this with the unity-design list so more people can see it. 12.04 had been pretty decent compared to other development cycles up to a few weeks ago, then it all went wrong. I am not happy about some of the stuff that landed this cycle with zero design consideration for accessibility. Stuff like the shortcuts overlay on long hold of the super key is quite literally broken by design. The HUD landed in 3d and now Unity2d with no functionality for screen reader users (silent in 3d all suggestions are push button in 2d), currently the global menu and indicators are almost entirely broken, probably due to the same thing that broke the menus. I know there have been improvements, tedg has done an improvement to the menus by applying role hints to stop everything being a checkbox menu item (caused by the global menu using a check box menu item for everything irrespective of whether it is semantically a checkbox item just because they *look* the same). Menus are currently silent except for reading out the hint (checkbox or radio button) and the shortcuts. I think some of the indicators were briefly not called image, but right now they all appear to be called window. I want to start doing some documentation and screencasts and filing of small bugs and fixing strings, but I can't do any polishing because it is all broken. I do know that Unity was supposed to not land broken this cycle, but I can't imagine that orca or onboard feature in the pre-landing test scripts. Are these scripts published? Alan. On 06/03/12 14:04, Nolan Darilek wrote: Ugh! We get to this point in every release, where there are patches for a whole bunch of issues that take forever to land. Meanwhile, testers can't examine the new release to see what new issues were revealed after the fixing of the old. So there's no accessibility *test* cycle, just a bunch of bugs that go away after it's too late to address the newly-revealed ones. Meanwhile, accessibility users aren't confident in the newer betas, as even the final release can contain major issues that block productive use. This isn't a slam on Luke, but on Canonical. If Canonical is pushing out Ubuntu for Android, surely they can put more accessibility people on the Ubuntu project, especially as it rolls out everywhere. It's going to be *more* important to have a highly accessible Ubuntu if it runs on my phone, tablet and TV. Canonical is in an awesome position to fix this once and have it run across the board, yet I only see Luke addressing patches and other volunteers occasionally popping in to remark on things. Seems I've asked this before, but whom do we have to ask to get Canonical to put more people on the accessibility team as they surely are doing so for mobile/TV development? Is there some process other than posting to this list again to better let our voices be heard? When folks patch these accessibility issues, those patches should land in a short timeframe. As of now I'm on 11.04 because 11.10 had accessibility issues I couldn't live with, and 12.04 is shaping up to be the same. Unfortunately, Firefox is moving on, and I'm experiencing focus stickage/accessibility hangs that aren't likely to be fixed because I'm on GNOME 2.32, and I can't see things getting better as Firefox rockets onward, either. If I don't get feedback on how to approach Canonical, I'll put up and promote a change.org petition before the week is out. We need to get more people helping Luke ASAP, especially as I for one don't want to get left behind when Ubuntu lands on Android. Canonical, please stop deprioritizing accessibility. 11.10 was a transitional release that was highly broken in many respects. Blind users at least can't wait until 12.10 for an Ubuntu with speaking menus, speaking notifications and access to content in Ubuntu's default mail client. On 03/06/2012 04:39 AM, Boris Dušek wrote: Hello, my colleague is using current Precise with Orca and Unity 2D and is encountering the following problems: 1. In 2D, if you open the menu using Alt+letter (e.g. Alt+S for Soubor in Czech, could be Alt+F for File in English), it does not announce menu item names when navigating left/right and up/down. 2. In 3D, neither Dash (Alt+F2) nor Launcher (Alt+F1) are accessible (you can navigate them, but no speech) Luke mentioned for some of these problems that patch exists or is even coming some time ago (approx. half of February), but the problems above still persist. Can I find some of those patches anywhere so that I can make a patched version of Unity? Or better, are those patches coming in some updated unity package for Precise? Thanks and best regards, Boris Dušek BRAILCOM,o.p.s. -- The Open Learning Centre is rebranding, find out about our new name and look at http://libertus.co.uk -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
Wait, you mean there's *this much breakage* in a *beta*? I thought that betas were supposed to be more stable than less, but what you've just described is a fucking accessibility nightmare. I don't use that sort of language lightly on public mailing lists, but it's absolutely infuriating how Linux for human beings is only for those humans fortunate enough to see. The rest of us can just go away. CCing the Unity list myself. It looks as if, should I choose to stay with Ubuntu, I will be stuck on 11.04 again unless some major fixes land in the 12.04 timeframe. This, of course, assumes that 12.10 won't be just as broken for accessibility as was 12.04 and 11.10 before it. I'm stuck on an ancient at-spi that is getting no accessibility fixes that I know of. New Firefox versions are breaking things that worked for years, and I doubt I'll see any fixes. At this point I'm very seriously switching back to OS X after years of Ubuntu use. Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and really don't like how Apple treats their developers and users. I feel, though, that I've been patient enough for Canonical to get it, and if free software can't meet my needs then proprietary already does. Also, wasn't 12.04 supposed to be an LTS release? Do blind and other disabled users not get the benefits of that? This email brought to you by my netbook upgrade, which I guess will be hosed. I was really hoping to discover that things more or less worked and I could upgrade my main machine, particularly as there's a Firefox accessibility hang that locks up my system so tight that nothing short of a full reboot can get things back. Restarting gdm isn't even sufficient anymore. In other words, 11.04 is no longer stable for me. Arrowing through webpages causes focus to stick, and my machine now hangs regularly. This is not a hardware issue, as I've seen these hangs in the a11y subsystem for years, but I can't upgrade to the newest at-spi and get any fixes for a problem that grows worse and worse. Even a less stable beta would be a relief if the other non-a11y issues were slated to be fixed before or shortly after release. On 03/06/2012 08:33 AM, Alan Bell wrote: totally agree, and sharing this with the unity-design list so more people can see it. 12.04 had been pretty decent compared to other development cycles up to a few weeks ago, then it all went wrong. I am not happy about some of the stuff that landed this cycle with zero design consideration for accessibility. Stuff like the shortcuts overlay on long hold of the super key is quite literally broken by design. The HUD landed in 3d and now Unity2d with no functionality for screen reader users (silent in 3d all suggestions are push button in 2d), currently the global menu and indicators are almost entirely broken, probably due to the same thing that broke the menus. I know there have been improvements, tedg has done an improvement to the menus by applying role hints to stop everything being a checkbox menu item (caused by the global menu using a check box menu item for everything irrespective of whether it is semantically a checkbox item just because they *look* the same). Menus are currently silent except for reading out the hint (checkbox or radio button) and the shortcuts. I think some of the indicators were briefly not called image, but right now they all appear to be called window. I want to start doing some documentation and screencasts and filing of small bugs and fixing strings, but I can't do any polishing because it is all broken. I do know that Unity was supposed to not land broken this cycle, but I can't imagine that orca or onboard feature in the pre-landing test scripts. Are these scripts published? Alan. On 06/03/12 14:04, Nolan Darilek wrote: Ugh! We get to this point in every release, where there are patches for a whole bunch of issues that take forever to land. Meanwhile, testers can't examine the new release to see what new issues were revealed after the fixing of the old. So there's no accessibility *test* cycle, just a bunch of bugs that go away after it's too late to address the newly-revealed ones. Meanwhile, accessibility users aren't confident in the newer betas, as even the final release can contain major issues that block productive use. This isn't a slam on Luke, but on Canonical. If Canonical is pushing out Ubuntu for Android, surely they can put more accessibility people on the Ubuntu project, especially as it rolls out everywhere. It's going to be *more* important to have a highly accessible Ubuntu if it runs on my phone, tablet and TV. Canonical is in an awesome position to fix this once and have it run across the board, yet I only see Luke addressing patches and other volunteers occasionally popping in to remark on things. Seems I've asked this before, but whom do we have to ask to get Canonical to put more people on the accessibility team as they surely are doing so for mobile/TV
Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
On 06/03/12 14:47, Nolan Darilek wrote: Wait, you mean there's *this much breakage* in a *beta*? yes. There are expected to be broken things in a beta, but I do agree that if the with-eyes experience was as bad as it is eyes-free right now then it probably wouldn't go out of the door. On the plus side I do believe that the fixes are really quite small, and then I expect it will be quite good in comparison to older releases. What concerns me the most is that things are not being tested until too late. *Designs* are not tested for accessibility. The design team should be doing accessibility testing before anyone writes any code. It should be known roughly what script an orca user would hear when going through the dash or the hud or the menus etc. before they get coded up. This is massively easier to do than drawing pictures for the visual design (it is just text) and would probably help the design and implementation process much more than it would be any kind of overhead. I don't use that sort of language lightly on public mailing lists, yeah, best not to. It doesn't really make your point any stronger and then people end up focussing on that and not the broken software that needs fixing. Alan -- The Open Learning Centre is rebranding, find out about our new name and look at http://libertus.co.uk -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 15:18:13 + Alan Bell alanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 06/03/12 14:47, Nolan Darilek wrote: Wait, you mean there's *this much breakage* in a *beta*? yes. There are expected to be broken things in a beta, but I do agree that if the with-eyes experience was as bad as it is eyes-free right now then it probably wouldn't go out of the door. On the plus side I do believe that the fixes are really quite small, and then I expect it will be quite good in comparison to older releases. What concerns me the most is that things are not being tested until too late. *Designs* are not tested for accessibility. The design team should be doing accessibility testing before anyone writes any code. It should be known roughly what script an orca user would hear when going through the dash or the hud or the menus etc. before they get coded up. This is massively easier to do than drawing pictures for the visual design (it is just text) and would probably help the design and implementation process much more than it would be any kind of overhead. I don't use that sort of language lightly on public mailing lists, yeah, best not to. It doesn't really make your point any stronger and then people end up focussing on that and not the broken software that needs fixing. Alan Much as I hate to say it, this is what I have fought for at UDS for quite a while now. Every 6 months, the rhetoric is the same. Accessibility is very important. We will make sure it can be tested during the Alpha testing stages! We can not have a11y broken for the cycle, and expect it to work at release. Unfortunately, talk is still much cheaper than action. - -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPVjIrAAoJEFNEIRz9dxbAArkH/RVUOtaZstHjocJfQo3vnppw +GRn9AuifkubxZf5p4dg+t3W7N3TGPSZbIyVepT03Xr+XCty1rtTy37F530Iq0j5 qTNWefFJkmFSSrHtijTa+NZEQH2C+oHg2dsZqSp18MFfaivzGI4ASTX0Pqslowtk TlfxMs/67UlXgGPAEMYTF6+k/fUr4z0fYCASKy2XRBgDYPqDrBFT4RIlnEKDom46 0VbR7MK5qHw08mCNJi5KuTBZ9Df5m1eFoabej9vHYTcj7EgvGcZ4iKNIA2zdAZHW 5o8Zpav2Pgf0ZWDCNpSYavtWwMhKC6W0i3boCDvzxzZAWQMYMKgeUYt8QI43b1c= =/EtN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: (In)Accessibility of Unity in current Precise
On 03/06/2012 09:50 AM, Charlie Kravetz wrote: Much as I hate to say it, this is what I have fought for at UDS for quite a while now. Every 6 months, the rhetoric is the same. Accessibility is very important. We will make sure it can be tested during the Alpha testing stages! We can not have a11y broken for the cycle, and expect it to work at release. Unfortunately, talk is still much cheaper than action. This is why I'm *angry*. Not just annoyed, but seriously angry. I see this from Google, Microsoft, Canonical and to a lesser extent Apple. So how do we change this? I'd have hoped that posting to this list would be enough, but it seems like it's the place where accessibility issues go to die, ignored by the mainstream community. Think I might try posting something in the brainstorm question-asking system, whatever it's called. Then change.org. This is so incredibly disappointing and unfortunate. Also unfortunate is how halfway through every do-release-upgrade I've ever done, speech changes from English to some non-English language, and even though the computer is still running, I can't finish the upgrade. I have a screen session running and an ssh server up, but my access point seems to be flaking out and I can't connect to finish the upgrade--that, or something in the upgrade broke wifi. I might be more forgiving of that if I was upgrading to a working system, but it looks like I won't be. I get that for some this is a passionate volunteer effort, but I am a developer who uses his Ubuntu system exclusively for work and play. This is not just an annoyance. Rather, it is the system I use to have fun and pay my bills slipping further and further out-of-date with the mainstream. I am very seriously wondering if Windows or OS X might represent the only upgrade path I'll ever have available to me. At the very least, I could be productively receiving accessibility upgrades at a pace equivalent to what I do on Ubuntu, once every year or year and a half. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
