Re: Ringtail accessibility (from actually testing it)
I installed Ringtail yesterday from the daily iso image, I took a video while doing it but I need to edit that down before posting it. Once you have a computer that will boot from USB (bit of fiddling in the bios with no audio available) it boots to a grub menu. First option is to run the desktop, second option is to install ubuntu, so cursor down and enter after booting. After the drums, wait a couple of seconds then press ctrl+s to start orca Alt-tab doesn't work to get to the ubiquity window, so you have to use a mouse. The mouse cursor starts out in the center of the screen and is in the right place, so you just have to make a left mouse button click happen to move focus to ubiquity. Once in ubiquity it works as before. I would strongly recommend being plugged in to wired internet for the installation process - connecting to wifi is challenging (and might not work depending on your wifi card) and if you are not connected to the internet it won't correctly guess your location, timezone and keyboard preferences and will assume you are in New York, USA with a US keyboard layout. Apart from that I could proceed through the ubiquity screens to the end, restart and boot into a desktop with orca running. First time I did it the unity dash spoke the button names for applications, but since then it has been silent. The launcher speaks OK and other applications work as before. So the regressions are - starts with a grub menu (this is probably temporary) - no alt-tab at the start of ubiquity, you need a mouse click. the rest is the same bugs as before as far as I can tell. Alan. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ringtail accessibility
Well, I am pretty sure at least once one or more of the changes that would be likely to break accessibility were brought up, but this could be a synthesized memory as I read about Ubuntu from a variety of sources...smiles. Of course this would not mean that things would be completely inaccessible, but... (Rest of reply is mixed in the quoted material) On 12/21/2012 11:00 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: On 21/12/12 22:02, Andy B. wrote: Subject: Re: Ringtail accessibility On 12/21/2012 02:38 PM, Charlie Kravetz wrote: What is happening is that accessibility will be broken in releases until 14.04. I thought that was an answer to whether or not it is expected to work in any release until then. I don't think anyone ever said that accessibility will be broken in releases between 12.04 and 14.04. Canonical is focusing their accessibility efforts on the LTS releases, since there are so few resources available to work on accessibility. This doesn't mean that the interim releases will be broken or won't be accessible. It just means that the effort is to ensure that the LTS releases will have the best accessibility experience. Ubuntu is open source, and anyone can contribute to it, so there's always a chance that with more resources, the interim releases could get more attention with respect to accessibility. Fair enough, but it works more or less fine in 12.10 contrary to official expectations, so I thought the same might be true of 13.04. Please do not email me separately, I am on the mailing list, which is how I saw your email in the first place. My intent was not to email you separately, this list's default reply-to functionality just happens to work differently than 99% of the mailing lists to which I am currently subscribed. As such, I often reply rather than reply-to-list, which I think is the common expectation for someone conducting a list discussion and wanting to continue it on same. Even more problematic for Outlook users since there is no such thing as a reply to list feature, and reply to all just adds everyone's email address in the thread to the to field. I'm not sure what lists y'all are on, but half of the lists I'm on behave this way, so I always use the reply to list or reply to all feature in my email client. Well, I've managed to ween myself off of all but a few lists and things may have changed on average over the last couple of years: but, This list's interaction with email clients re replies is not something I have encountered often. The reply to all option in my email client generally just includes the list address and the originator so it's easy enough to delete the originators address. IMHO, it's the responsibility of the poster to know how their email client works and how the list is set up. Agreed, but it's easy to forget what for some is a non-standard behavior, or forget to check if a first time poster. I went back and reposted a reply to a list, maybe this one, recently, wouldn't do so most likely if I felt the msg was not of much interest to the group. (Very subjective of course.) Wow, just to show how easy it can be to not reply as one normally would: even knowing how this group works/having known so for quite some time, and even after having just read/replied to this conversation, I _almost sent this reply to Christopher and not to the list right now! Regards, -- B. Henry -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Ringtail accessibility
Normally I'd stay away from development releases, but apparently the newest Orca requires Python 3.3, and I'm experiencing some issues in the Orca shipped with 12.10 that make it difficult to use (it doesn't seem to respond to the command line option that's supposed to kill it, hangs fairly regularly, and I occasionally get stuck in states where I can't navigate websites with arrows nor do keystrokes interrupt speech.) I know that at least the kill thing is probably resolved in Git master, but I'm wondering about the others. So I'm wondering about 13.04. Since many features aren't being publicized, are the 13.04 builds more accessibly stable than they'd be were Unity and other components undergoing massive churn? Has anyone experimented with this? What is the most accessible way to boot a virtualized desktop? Vbox is QT, and while I know there is a command line interface, I'd really like an easier and more accessible option for booting a Ubuntu desktop that doesn't involve configuring a VM from scratch via the command line. Thanks. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ringtail accessibility
On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:24:27 -0600 Nolan Darilek no...@thewordnerd.info wrote: Normally I'd stay away from development releases, but apparently the newest Orca requires Python 3.3, and I'm experiencing some issues in the Orca shipped with 12.10 that make it difficult to use (it doesn't seem to respond to the command line option that's supposed to kill it, hangs fairly regularly, and I occasionally get stuck in states where I can't navigate websites with arrows nor do keystrokes interrupt speech.) I know that at least the kill thing is probably resolved in Git master, but I'm wondering about the others. So I'm wondering about 13.04. Since many features aren't being publicized, are the 13.04 builds more accessibly stable than they'd be were Unity and other components undergoing massive churn? Has anyone experimented with this? What is the most accessible way to boot a virtualized desktop? Vbox is QT, and while I know there is a command line interface, I'd really like an easier and more accessible option for booting a Ubuntu desktop that doesn't involve configuring a VM from scratch via the command line. Thanks. As stated many times now by the developer that maintains accessibility for Ubuntu: It is recommended that you use 12.04 LTS instead. The accessibility team does not have enough resources to make sure every release of Ubuntu is as accessible as it can be, so the team only focuses on the LTS releases. Luke That means the next version that we know will have orca and accessibility working is 14.04. In between, things may or may not work, and should be expected to give problems. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
RE: Ringtail accessibility
-Original Message- From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kravetz Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:33 PM To: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Ringtail accessibility On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:24:27 -0600 Nolan Darilek no...@thewordnerd.info wrote: Normally I'd stay away from development releases, but apparently the newest Orca requires Python 3.3, and I'm experiencing some issues in the Orca shipped with 12.10 that make it difficult to use (it doesn't seem to respond to the command line option that's supposed to kill it, hangs fairly regularly, and I occasionally get stuck in states where I can't navigate websites with arrows nor do keystrokes interrupt speech.) I know that at least the kill thing is probably resolved in Git master, but I'm wondering about the others. So I'm wondering about 13.04. Since many features aren't being publicized, are the 13.04 builds more accessibly stable than they'd be were Unity and other components undergoing massive churn? Has anyone experimented with this? What is the most accessible way to boot a virtualized desktop? Vbox is QT, and while I know there is a command line interface, I'd really like an easier and more accessible option for booting a Ubuntu desktop that doesn't involve configuring a VM from scratch via the command line. Thanks. As stated many times now by the developer that maintains accessibility for Ubuntu: It is recommended that you use 12.04 LTS instead. The accessibility team does not have enough resources to make sure every release of Ubuntu is as accessible as it can be, so the team only focuses on the LTS releases. Luke That means the next version that we know will have orca and accessibility working is 14.04. In between, things may or may not work, and should be expected to give problems. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] I thought 13.04 was a LTS release, but either way, when I tried to install 13.04 a few hours ago, the installer was completely inaccessible. In fact, it's so bad, that the try/install window is 100% inaccessible. Pressing ctrl+s does start orca, but alt+tab fails to work in all cases. As far as the virtual machine problem, an accessible virtualization package is VMWare Player found at www.vmware.com/player. It is free for personal use. Another option costs around $300USD, but it is VMWare Workstation found at www.vmware.com/workstation. I like workstation better than player especially when it is ran under linux, but player works when you are hard up for money. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ringtail accessibility
On 12/21/2012 11:55 AM, Andy B. wrote: thought 13.04 was a LTS release, but either way, when I tried to install 13.04 a few hours ago, the installer was completely inaccessible. In fact, it's so bad, that the try/install window is 100% inaccessible. Pressing ctrl+s does start orca, but alt+tab fails to work in all cases. As far as the Cool, thanks, sounds like both the install and regular use cases are broken then. I'll fire up a VM in a month or so and see how it's working then. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ringtail accessibility
On 12/21/2012 11:32 AM, Charlie Kravetz wrote: As stated many times now by the developer that maintains accessibility for Ubuntu: It is The question was not what is recommended/expected to happen, and I think I was fairly clear in stating that. The question is what is happening in the real world now? Either someone knows that, or they don't. If the latter then no biggy. Maybe I'll install an image in Vbox and let folks know. But regardless of what might be recommended, or what I should expect, there is a real and quantifiable thing happening now. If you don't have any information on what that real and quantifiable thing is, then telling me a bunch of what-ifs isn't helpful. Thanks, and happy holidays. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
RE: Ringtail accessibility
-Original Message- From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Nolan Darilek Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM To: Ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Ringtail accessibility On 12/21/2012 02:38 PM, Charlie Kravetz wrote: What is happening is that accessibility will be broken in releases until 14.04. I thought that was an answer to whether or not it is expected to work in any release until then. Fair enough, but it works more or less fine in 12.10 contrary to official expectations, so I thought the same might be true of 13.04. Sorry if my response was a bit heavy-handed, but the as has been stated many times felt a bit harsh. I know what the official line is, having been a participant in those discussions, but not all of us are official Canonical people, and some of us actually want to run the bleeding edge because we ourselves help to create it. Also, not everyone wants to use the same distribution for two years in a world where things move quickly, and some of us are willing to tolerate a bit of breakage in exchange for that. Please do not email me separately, I am on the mailing list, which is how I saw your email in the first place. My intent was not to email you separately, this list's default reply-to functionality just happens to work differently than 99% of the mailing lists to which I am currently subscribed. As such, I often reply rather than reply-to-list, which I think is the common expectation for someone conducting a list discussion and wanting to continue it on same. Even more problematic for Outlook users since there is no such thing as a reply to list feature, and reply to all just adds everyone's email address in the thread to the to field. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ringtail accessibility
On 21/12/12 22:02, Andy B. wrote: -Original Message- From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Nolan Darilek Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM To: Ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Ringtail accessibility On 12/21/2012 02:38 PM, Charlie Kravetz wrote: What is happening is that accessibility will be broken in releases until 14.04. I thought that was an answer to whether or not it is expected to work in any release until then. I don't think anyone ever said that accessibility will be broken in releases between 12.04 and 14.04. Canonical is focusing their accessibility efforts on the LTS releases, since there are so few resources available to work on accessibility. This doesn't mean that the interim releases will be broken or won't be accessible. It just means that the effort is to ensure that the LTS releases will have the best accessibility experience. Ubuntu is open source, and anyone can contribute to it, so there's always a chance that with more resources, the interim releases could get more attention with respect to accessibility. Fair enough, but it works more or less fine in 12.10 contrary to official expectations, so I thought the same might be true of 13.04. Sorry if my response was a bit heavy-handed, but the as has been stated many times felt a bit harsh. I know what the official line is, having been a participant in those discussions, but not all of us are official Canonical people, and some of us actually want to run the bleeding edge because we ourselves help to create it. Also, not everyone wants to use the same distribution for two years in a world where things move quickly, and some of us are willing to tolerate a bit of breakage in exchange for that. I didn't keep the original message, and it wasn't quoted here, but it wasn't clear to me that the poster understood where the development efforts would be focused. Maybe Charlie could have worded things differently, but I didn't see his answer as being out of line or uncalled for. Please do not email me separately, I am on the mailing list, which is how I saw your email in the first place. My intent was not to email you separately, this list's default reply-to functionality just happens to work differently than 99% of the mailing lists to which I am currently subscribed. As such, I often reply rather than reply-to-list, which I think is the common expectation for someone conducting a list discussion and wanting to continue it on same. Even more problematic for Outlook users since there is no such thing as a reply to list feature, and reply to all just adds everyone's email address in the thread to the to field. I'm not sure what lists y'all are on, but half of the lists I'm on behave this way, so I always use the reply to list or reply to all feature in my email client. The reply to all option in my email client generally just includes the list address and the originator so it's easy enough to delete the originators address. IMHO, it's the responsibility of the poster to know how their email client works and how the list is set up. -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
