Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 14:01 +0100, julian wrote: as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. With 'public' votes, you can only reach an internet-affine, high-interest part of users. Hardly anyone who's just a potential, not current user. Hardly anyone who just has better things to do. Plus forum (list and chat) dwellers can't be expected to care about marketing/branding and about the needs and wishes of other people that aren't represented directly. I don't care much about how people on the forum would vote. Such a vote doesn't even transport full opinions. I care about informed opinions and decisions. Input on the forum can be nice for tweaking details, but that's pretty much it. at which point are we allowing - and encouraging - Ubuntu users to feed back into the design process? i don't see a channel for that. People who want to get involved can come here and find information on the wiki. Now that everyone doing so is left in the situation we are - that is a problem. As things are, we have to wait for further direction while a lot of water went down the river already. the question who is our target audience makes little sense to these ends, i think. Ubuntu is a freely distributable operating system made with the ends of being as 'generally useful' (whatever that means) to as many people as possible. the 'target audience' is whoever is using Ubuntu and, as such, their thoughts on the artwork ought to be considered with sincerity accordingly. if Ubuntu-art has a target audience, then Ubuntu itself must have a target audience - something i've never seen Canonical define (and thankfully so). I do see the problem with a diverse audience. But current users and target audience are not the same thing. Ever considered to target users who don't use Ubuntu yet? Especially those who will not change the appearance defaults for the sake of changing them anyway? There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! fine by me. we'd be evidencing a disappointing lack of imagination if green, blue and brown based palettes described our world of possible choices. This is just silly. as the comments in those pages make clear, they just like the colours and the overall design continuity. admittedly they also like the impossible 'dock' like menu. why expect users to be profound on the topic, let alone thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible? all they know is that they like it - and that's as good a start as any IMO. Sure. They like the colour (i wouldn't make that a plural). Must be the same majority that doesn't like brown. Ah, so we don't expect users to be profound on the topic and to be thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible, yet would want their votes? Great. aiming high, in my opinion, is developing a design that more-than-satisfies a supposed majority of Ubuntu using public. until we know what it is most Ubuntu users actually want, we cannot have a clear design charter. Aiming high in my opinion means going through a very thorough design process. It starts with a proper briefing. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
..on Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 11:14:49AM +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 00:27 +0100, julian wrote: then so be it. i strongly believe Ubuntu artwork development needs to follow the same consensual process as any other aspect of the project's development: users needs to be able to report what they consider 'bugs' in the art and design aspects and feel they are being heard. we respond to those bugs by coming up with working solution. ideally they get on board and help out. It's a new idea to me that everything runs on bug reports. What about blueprints and the sprints and summits? Regarding consensual - ever heard of the Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life? ;) What would you do with a I don't like that colour bug, anyway? Change that colour and have the same report from someone else? as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. at which point are we allowing - and encouraging - Ubuntu users to feed back into the design process? i don't see a channel for that. the question who is our target audience makes little sense to these ends, i think. Ubuntu is a freely distributable operating system made with the ends of being as 'generally useful' (whatever that means) to as many people as possible. the 'target audience' is whoever is using Ubuntu and, as such, their thoughts on the artwork ought to be considered with sincerity accordingly. if Ubuntu-art has a target audience, then Ubuntu itself must have a target audience - something i've never seen Canonical define (and thankfully so). if the bulk of users simply don't like brown - which is the fairly clearly the case - then you have a choice to either listen to the users and invite them to submit alternative designs or choose the same semi-closed myopic design-agenda the art currently has. There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! fine by me. we'd be evidencing a disappointing lack of imagination if green, blue and brown based palettes described our world of possible choices. Ken is approaching all this with real clarity i think: not too big to ignore the fact that if one wildly impossible mockup on a forum by a non-list-member receives 19 pages of praise, it deserves consideration and consequent feasible response. What exactly would there be to consider, regarding that mockup? I thought a bulk of users simply don't like brown? You call it wildly impossible yourself. Not to forget that it shows no windows, no widgets. It's easy to do a clean and consistent design if you leave everything out. as the comments in those pages make clear, they just like the colours and the overall design continuity. admittedly they also like the impossible 'dock' like menu. why expect users to be profound on the topic, let alone thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible? all they know is that they like it - and that's as good a start as any IMO. this approach has worked brilliantly for other aspects of the Ubuntu project and there's no reason it can't work as well here. comparing Apple's design agenda to that of Ubuntu is absurd: this is a volunteer project remember, made by people for people. two fish with vastly different budgets and histories. Somewhat true. But should we aim low because of that? are the standards of Ubuntu users low? i don't think so. they /are/ the 'target audience' remember. without them and their opinions this whole conversation - and the questions it raises - is sheer solipsism. aiming high, in my opinion, is developing a design that more-than-satisfies a supposed majority of Ubuntu using public. until we know what it is most Ubuntu users actually want, we cannot have a clear design charter. to these ends, we need to create a central context for users to vote and comment on designs/mockups in an attempt to determine the broadest trends/vectors of opinion and of taste. -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
On Dec 27, 2007 5:45 AM, Thorsten Wilms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 14:01 +0100, julian wrote: as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. With 'public' votes, you can only reach an internet-affine, high-interest part of users. Hardly anyone who's just a potential, not current user. Hardly anyone who just has better things to do. Plus forum (list and chat) dwellers can't be expected to care about marketing/branding and about the needs and wishes of other people that aren't represented directly. I don't care much about how people on the forum would vote. Such a vote doesn't even transport full opinions. I care about informed opinions and decisions. Input on the forum can be nice for tweaking details, but that's pretty much it. I'm against votes as well; There fundamentally flawed. If there are 3 choices that are all bad, why force users to make a bad choice. We'll know the best of the worst choices, but it will still be bad. Now you could say people need a place where they can openly comment and debate the designs, but then you get the forums - where people bicker, get ostracized, and leave. Every topic I read has some prick saying that design is horrible. The most dependable source, I believe, is blogs, journals, news and review websites. They actively disassemble every single detail. They tell us what's wrong because it's in their interest to tell their users what to expect. If a blog is critical of our look feel, and it winds up on Google, it means because people are linking and reading it. Google works on links, which is essentially an internet-wide vote. How perfect is that? at which point are we allowing - and encouraging - Ubuntu users to feed back into the design process? i don't see a channel for that. People who want to get involved can come here and find information on the wiki. Now that everyone doing so is left in the situation we are - that is a problem. As things are, we have to wait for further direction while a lot of water went down the river already. The wiki is for contributions, and the Mailing list is hardcore. Forums are the most public space we have for comments. Overall if you're feeding back into the design process at even one of these avenues, it's likely that you're being watched and noted. the question who is our target audience makes little sense to these ends, i think. Ubuntu is a freely distributable operating system made with the ends of being as 'generally useful' (whatever that means) to as many people as possible. the 'target audience' is whoever is using Ubuntu and, as such, their thoughts on the artwork ought to be considered with sincerity accordingly. if Ubuntu-art has a target audience, then Ubuntu itself must have a target audience - something i've never seen Canonical define (and thankfully so). I do see the problem with a diverse audience. But current users and target audience are not the same thing. Ever considered to target users who don't use Ubuntu yet? Especially those who will not change the appearance defaults for the sake of changing them anyway? The problem with trying to remain diverse is the same if you try to butter too much bread. You'll become thin and bland. My personal opinion is to satisfy who you've got first, and try to expand with the leeway you've got. It would be better to get glowing reviews from a smaller crowd and slowly grow, than try to make it focused for some else who won't hear about it. Even still, both of those options are better than having a mud-project that even makes loyalists nervous. There also have been many saying that Ubuntu should stay away from blue. Cool, let's rule out brown and blue! fine by me. we'd be evidencing a disappointing lack of imagination if green, blue and brown based palettes described our world of possible choices. This is just silly. If we go with what's cool at the time, then we blend into the crowd. If we go with what's unique, were ostracized. ... This is why all new suburban homes have white walls. as the comments in those pages make clear, they just like the colours and the overall design continuity. admittedly they also like the impossible 'dock' like menu. why expect users to be profound on the topic, let alone thinking in terms of what is and isn't feasible? all they know is that they like it - and that's as good a start as any IMO. Sure. They like the colour (i wouldn't make that a plural). Must be the same majority that doesn't like brown. Ah, so we don't expect users to be profound on the topic and to be thinking in
Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu Mockup
Verry interesting 2007/12/22, AA Boy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The wiki page is now up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/DarkBrown Smartboy On 12/21/07, AA Boy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People, just to let you know, my mockups moved to http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Ubuntu%20Hardy%20Mockups/ Also, I finished the major work on my mockups. I may work on lowering font sizes and such. Here is the latest version: http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Ubuntu%20Hardy%20Mockups/ubuntu-mockup4.png I also made some with alternate wallpapers: http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Ubuntu%20Hardy%20Mockups/ubuntu-mockup4-alternate1.png http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Ubuntu%20Hardy%20Mockups/ubuntu-mockup4-alternate2.png http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Ubuntu%20Hardy%20Mockups/ubuntu-mockup4-alternate3.png I am going to make a wiki page for my stuff soon. On 12/21/07, sylvain marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i've seen interesting things on this list... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Hardline http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/ubuntu-mockup2.png 2007/12/20, xl cheese [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can make prelights for inactive windows so there's no extra click involved. I think having the plain _ O X without any button borders except for prelights looks nice and clean. I did that in this theme: http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/71800-1.jpg I may play with the idea of not having any visible metacity buttons until a mouse over and see how it feels in a real theme. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:20:19 +0100 Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu Mockup i like the idea of having no visible Minimise/Maximise/Close buttons when a window is inactive.. this reduces the graphical complexity of the desktop - something that should be encouraged where possible. I don't think it's a very good idea, since it adds an extra click in case I want to minimize, maximiza or close an inactive window. Instead of beeing hidden, the buttons should be grayed/faded to reduce the graphical complexity ot the desktop, but they must sill be visible. Molumen - Original Message - From: Julian Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu Mockup ..on or around Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 01:10:13AM +0100, Thomas L.Gsaid: Oh well since we're all mocking up now, let me throw in a suggestion as well: http://www.portefolje.net/div/mockup.jpg Based on Ken's suggestion on this list. Some modifications (darker top area + some reflection, hover, consistent menus, dark notifications with some reflection). Another wallpaper (stock-image from sxc.hu), and another top-panel. Please ignore the ugly notification-icons at top right and other glitches - it is all just photoshop mocking! Also, I didn't make any minimize/maximize-icons yet, I really don't think we should use the Vista-like ones... hehe, i thought the absense of buttons was deliberate. i like the idea of having no visible Minimise/Maximise/Close buttons when a window is inactive.. this reduces the graphical complexity of the desktop - something that should be encouraged where possible. this of course would require that they become active on a mouse-over event without bringing that whole window into focus. perhaps impossible in the current windowing context. cheers, julian -- http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net emails containing HTML will not be read. AA Boy skrev: Oops, for some reason teh link got deleted. Oh well, here it is again! :D http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/ubuntu-mockup.png On 12/18/07, *Corey Woodworth* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks invisible to me. On Dec 18, 2007 4:32 PM, AA Boy [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been thinking about what I would like Ubuntu to look like, and made a mockup. Pretty much every shape in this except the panel background and wallpaper is made using SVGs. I may supply sources latter if anyone is interested in them. I didn't do windows yet (since I use Enlightenment, and don't want to change GNOME's theme right now), but I think this may be
Re: [ubuntu-art] GDM/Emerald suggestion
Extra this theme ! 2007/12/22, Jonathan Motes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One of the most useful tools that I've used since I've started using Linux (coming from Windows) is the window always-on-top feature. However, I had been using Linux for several months before I discovered it. I found this emerald themehttp://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/radial?content=71352on gnomelook.org that has a button to the left to set a window to be always-on-top. I find it extremely useful and I would like to see something similar included in Hardy's theme. I don't know much about the capabilities of GDM themes and if this could be implemented. I suppose that even if Hardy included an emerald theme the GDM theme would have to have the same functionality and layout. I hope this is the correct place to make these kinds of suggestions. If not, could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks, Jonathan -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] my oppinions and a theme idea (mock up)
verry good ! 2007/12/23, Max Tristen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: hi people :) i subscribed to the mailing list a week or 2 ago and have been following it with alot of interest. i like the direction that the Hardline theme is taking, it feels more finished and professional to me. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Hardline tbh I'm not a great lover of the current version of the theme.. it has some nice features but they just lacking the finish off which they require. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals its too heavy and it feels like an effort just to look at it.. i don't think the colours in the background the buttons works, they're would be better to have a main colour theme not to try mixing other colour themes with the browns of Ubuntu. i do however like this trend of mixing the top bar of windows with the menu bar, that looks very sexy, and that what i think we need to do to the Ubuntu theme, we have to make it sexy. its is one of the main factors which would persuade people to convert to ubuntu. oh another this I'm not too fond of is the amount of curves most of these mock ups seem to have. its a bit too much for me! REMEMBER! if you round all your corners then you loose your edge! I've made a mock up of what i think would look sexy as a default theme. i tried to make my own alternative hardy theme wiki page but it wasn't happening, so instead you can find mine at.. http://www.unknowndomain.co.uk/uploader/files/6/hardyheron..jpg http://www.unknowndomain.co.uk/uploader/files/6/hardyheron2.jpg you can contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at [EMAIL PROTECTED] i would love to hear you feed back people :) -- Everything in one place. All new Windows Live!http://www.windowslive.co.uk/get-live -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
..on Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 01:59:53PM -0800, Ken Vermette wrote: On Dec 27, 2007 5:45 AM, Thorsten Wilms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 14:01 +0100, julian wrote: as i've said earlier, i'm into the idea of a public vote on mockups (and including the current theme) made by list members within the first two 6-8 weeks of each release cycle. i think most of the time ubuntu-art is shooting in the dark, so to speak, where envisaging a best-fit default theme is concerned; choosing externally asserted design agendas over plentiful public/user opinion. With 'public' votes, you can only reach an internet-affine, high-interest part of users. Hardly anyone who's just a potential, not current user. Hardly anyone who just has better things to do. Plus forum (list and chat) dwellers can't be expected to care about marketing/branding and about the needs and wishes of other people that aren't represented directly. I don't care much about how people on the forum would vote. Such a vote doesn't even transport full opinions. I care about informed opinions and decisions. Input on the forum can be nice for tweaking details, but that's pretty much it. I'm against votes as well; There fundamentally flawed. If there are 3 choices that are all bad, why force users to make a bad choice. We'll know the best of the worst choices, but it will still be bad. votes are always 'flawed', just as any democracy is: the so-called right are more statistically like to vote, a vocal minority on the internet is likely to dominate an opinion channel. nonetheless i think it's important to not be too black and white about this. at present we have incidental, contingent feedback, rather than a directed context for Ubuntu users to suggest mockups and express criticism. of course there will be organised bias and abuse - just as there is anywhere opinion finds voice on the internet - but it is still better than the patchy guesswork we have now. it's clear from reading comments in forums that many who suggest mockups aren't even aware of this mailing list. even mockups to this list are distributed across several wikis and sites in a way that is not productive when getting a sense of the overall scope of contributed designs. what i'm talking about is not too dissimilar from this: http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ .. but with comments and a section dedicated to feasible default theme candidates. a rating system may be useful also, though not as a statistically deterministic guide. even if due to sheer numbers of submissions many are unseen and/or ignored, i'm sure we'd see inspired contributions that would only positively stimulate the design directions taken by contributors to this list. how would this not be generally useful, all things considered? -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
I think we should do some forum vote. Not to make the whole decision, but as a guideline. Ubuntuforums is rather big, so the feedback would probably be pretty good as well. From noobs to geeks... Also, in some time, we should have some prototype, and be able to test it on target users, and determine their response, how well it works for solving standard tasks etc. That's what Microsoft and Apple and others probably do. Testing it on ourselves, even if we are many in numbers, can make us blind for some important usability issues. Therefore I say we need some sort of qualitative testing on certain subjects :) - Thomas L.G -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Who is our target audience?
julian wrote: even mockups to this list are distributed across several wikis and sites in a way that is not productive when getting a sense of the overall scope of contributed designs. what i'm talking about is not too dissimilar from this: http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ .. but with comments and a section dedicated to feasible default theme candidates. a rating system may be useful also, though not as a statistically deterministic guide. even if due to sheer numbers of submissions many are unseen and/or ignored, i'm sure we'd see inspired contributions that would only positively stimulate the design directions taken by contributors to this list. how would this not be generally useful, all things considered? This is honestly just adding to the quagmire here. The people that use the other places like wiki's wont move to yet another site. The wiki has _always_ been _the_ place for official submissions/work. People have taken it upon themselves to move it away from that. Adding another option isn't the way to go. Back to the topic... The general user is our audience and as that is too broad to try to please. A concept would be best to define and go with that. Hopefully, we hear something on that soon. -Cory \m/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
