Re: [ubuntu-art] gtk theme
Andrea Cimitan wrote: > So we will implement (he is the right guy to do this) this feature the > day we get a sane way to do it, without the hackish way in eXperience. I see it pop up time and time again that Linux or Free Software isn't doing YYY or XXX because it is 'hackish'. We end up wallowing in Windows95 tech on more than a few fronts because of it. Animated icons, animated progress bars, etc. - all progressive ideas that have been quashed by the status quo because we don't have an 'official' way to do it. Ubuntu and many other Free Software branches seek to hit mainstream and hit it hard. This means that we _must_ let go of some of the perfectionism and get the things that matter into the eyes of the people who care. Free Software should be a bastion of innovation, not a reclusive attic of stale mothballs. Patch the code. Kludge it out when we have no other option. Let the progression happen. TJS signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Test Ubuntu 8.04 Alpha5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 sylvain marc schreef: > I'm just installing Ubuntu 8.04 Alpha5 on Virtualbox in Ubuntu 7.10... > It was verry interesting... > The Backgrounds are verry good, but not the themes (for the moment). > > I must test the applications in a few days, and i tell you what i think > about them... > > Sam7 > well I'm allready running it from alpha 3 on both computers. I upgraded straight from Gutsy and it works fine :) somettimes a minor problem but so far nothing serously eg some weeks ago I couldn't play mp3's after a week or so the codecs worked again - -- Ubuntu user # 14925 "We can walk our road together, If our goals are all the same. We can run alone and free, if we persue a different aim. Let the truth of love be lighted, Let the love of truth shine clear. Sensibility. Armed with sense and liberty. With the heart and mind united in a single perfect sphere" The Sphere " a kind of a dream", Rush -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEVAwUBR8+FU7adALF5Kk42AQLWwwf+NxXhxn36v/6LQUXNb1oXBzosSFriIaDo M8kQPuvp1vJ5o1xhWS8gbVjK+glZGZzuXqgI4l5vYY5mCu2FawtH8eEDiOZtn/YX t0wzlgwYNyYsxqsp28ZqnhI3iRv5Z0C52JbjWaF1lEdmYVj3yK640DVZFrC+5Dvg CEvnX2o30v566CwzHsAXT0b8ELZ48JM2Pi4ZJwMmBtlnnbq/rM5MRhubDuHEDs3I eNGoiQH0kw2LicPq06a0HtWqV+6Xi/wZuG32iV3dxTe4gEmqgTbm8mFZmvcxQa0p 9wq7PQOvQzS7G76wyk4MFtR4TOsznEYC6FSvokJZTwRqwjQ310ymRQ== =zYKb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
[ubuntu-art] Test Ubuntu 8.04 Alpha5
I'm just installing Ubuntu 8.04 Alpha5 on Virtualbox in Ubuntu 7.10... It was verry interesting... The Backgrounds are verry good, but not the themes (for the moment). I must test the applications in a few days, and i tell you what i think about them... Sam7 -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] New Murrine Release?
Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 15.58 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 15.49 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > > > >> Is the current code in CVS/SVN/BZR? > >> > > Yeah, Gnome's > > Murrine is now part of GNOME officially? Do you have a link to the code > so I can try it? No, it's just in the gnome svn > > -Cory K > -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] New Murrine Release?
Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 15.49 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > >> Is the current code in CVS/SVN/BZR? >> > Yeah, Gnome's Murrine is now part of GNOME officially? Do you have a link to the code so I can try it? -Cory K -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] New Murrine Release?
Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 15.49 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 07.34 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > > > >> Andrea Cimitan wrote: > >> > >>> Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was > >>> rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and > >>> a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. > >>> > >> So why hasn't there been a release? > >> > >> > > Since it has RGBA support and I don't want to push that feature because > > maybe gtk+ is going to be RGBA-enabled by default, and that means no > > more plugins for Applications. > > > > So you could have a switch to enable or disable it like animations. > Having the default as off. > > > Furthermore I need a valid Theme Editor, an XML schema file, and useful > > howtos... > > > > Since other engines don't have this, I don't see it as needed for a release. I want Murrine to be a complete revolution/release. Which requires from tools to instructions > > Is the current code in CVS/SVN/BZR? Yeah, Gnome's. > > -Cory > -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] New Murrine Release?
Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 07.34 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > >> Andrea Cimitan wrote: >> >>> Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was >>> rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and >>> a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. >>> >> So why hasn't there been a release? >> >> > Since it has RGBA support and I don't want to push that feature because > maybe gtk+ is going to be RGBA-enabled by default, and that means no > more plugins for Applications. > So you could have a switch to enable or disable it like animations. Having the default as off. > Furthermore I need a valid Theme Editor, an XML schema file, and useful > howtos... > Since other engines don't have this, I don't see it as needed for a release. Is the current code in CVS/SVN/BZR? -Cory -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] gtk theme
Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 13.52 +0100, Sebastian Billaudelle ha scritto: > Hi folks! > > Because my modem-driver is broken (never play around with > startup-scripts;-)) I wasn't able to read the mails. > I'll do it later, because I'm sitting in an internet cafe and I'm a > little bit short in time. > > I'm sorry for my bad and short post. I'll post more later! > > I've looked into the xl_cheese-/clearlooks-engine and changed some > points. > I could go on like this fixing the points written before. > > At first, there was the problem that windows without a toolbar looked > ugly, because the color of the menubar was not the same as the windows > bg-color. > That's changed now: The menubar is colored like the background of the > window and the gradient of the toolbar is changed a little bit to fit > to that change... > > The first point is the "unity of the menubaritem and the menu itself". > I looked into the code of the eXperience-engine and hacked a little > bit in clearlooks. > That should work now to, even if the menu is placed higher than the > menubar (Then the menubaritem-widget is turned "upside down"). > Compiz/Emerald is still a problem... I'm the Clearlooks developer (yes Murrine too :P ), my friend Benzea is the Maintainer of Clearlooks, and he is the author of the eXperience engine :D So we will implement (he is the right guy to do this) this feature the day we get a sane way to do it, without the hackish way in eXperience. Another *huge* problem is that menuitems don't get shadows, so the whole menu will always look ugly, except an highly decentered shadow like in your sceenshot. (I'm using centered shadows, with 0 x-y offset, like a lot of huys... so this feature without shadow on menuitems will cause just glitches) > > Here's a little screenshot: > http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmfoto1su9.png > Later I'll upload the engine, but I've to clean up the code before > (This was my first contact to C;-)). NO, please NO yet another engine. I was totally against the decision of xlcheese to publish his patch as another engine and I will against a similar idea. Many years ago was created a tool, called DIFF, do publish your patches in a clean and simple way. Just attach your patch for Clearlooks, Murrine or whatever. In a future, if the patch is sane and we agree (in the meaning it's not hackish and it will work with compiz/shadows), that thing could be part of Gnome. It's so useless to publish a fork with more than 95% of the same code. Yes, NODOKA (aka murrine with a different name and fixed hilight_ratio and other options) is an useless engine. And I will be laughing when I'll publish the next release which is faster, better looking, alpha-capable, with a *100 times better* structured code :) Just to notice its capabilities, Murrine's SVN in just 10 lines of code can emulate Nodoka engine, with the benefits of a faster but also more secure/stable code :) (just add style = NODOKA in your gtkrc) eheh > > cheers stein cheers Cimi > > Am Mittwoch, den 05.03.2008, 12:13 +0100 schrieb Andrea Cimitan: > > Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 11.35 +0100, Kenneth Wimer ha scritto: > > > On Tuesday 04 March 2008 16:22:09 Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > > You cannot rename human theme from ubuntulooks to murrine/clearlooks and > > > > blame about those gtk-engines. > > > > > > the idea was not to simply rename anything. The gtkrc's we put in are > > > just for > > > testing and are in no way final. I never said I knew how to hack on gtkrc > > > files ;-) The notes I wrote below are just the reults of looking at the > > > clearlooks and murrine themes and trying to decide where each has a > > > weekness/strength in relation to ubuntulooks > > Before writing a Gtkrc, there must be at least *an idea* of what is the > > style of an engine. > > Clearlooks and Murrine are completely different, and they CAN'T have the > > same colors (as it seems from those screenshots). > > > > > > > A theme should be written from scratch with an engine in mind, these are > > > > probably the weird themes I have seen in years :) > > > > Even ubuntulooks, which is one of the less-liked gtk-engine, seems a way > > > > better than both clearlooks and murrine. > > > > > > So you are saying that ubuntulooks is better than both clearlooks and > > > murrine? > > > I do agree that writing something from scratch is the better option, but > > > I am > > > not a developer :D > > > > > No, ubuntulooks is absolutely the last engine, in terms of liking and > > stability, bugs, security. But with those weird gtkrcs, it looks better. > > Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was > > rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and > > a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. > > Also adding custom widgets should be much more simpler. > > > > I really hope these and derivates will NEVER be part of ubuntu. > > > > > > No worries, they probably won't be...at least
Re: [ubuntu-art] New Murrine Release?
Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 07.34 -0500, Cory K. ha scritto: > Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was > > rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and > > a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. > > So why hasn't there been a release? > > -Cory > Since it has RGBA support and I don't want to push that feature because maybe gtk+ is going to be RGBA-enabled by default, and that means no more plugins for Applications. Furthermore I need a valid Theme Editor, an XML schema file, and useful howtos... -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] gtk theme
Hi folks! Because my modem-driver is broken (never play around with startup-scripts;-)) I wasn't able to read the mails. I'll do it later, because I'm sitting in an internet cafe and I'm a little bit short in time. I'm sorry for my bad and short post. I'll post more later! I've looked into the xl_cheese-/clearlooks-engine and changed some points. I could go on like this fixing the points written before. At first, there was the problem that windows without a toolbar looked ugly, because the color of the menubar was not the same as the windows bg-color. That's changed now: The menubar is colored like the background of the window and the gradient of the toolbar is changed a little bit to fit to that change... The first point is the "unity of the menubaritem and the menu itself". I looked into the code of the eXperience-engine and hacked a little bit in clearlooks. That should work now to, even if the menu is placed higher than the menubar (Then the menubaritem-widget is turned "upside down"). Compiz/Emerald is still a problem... Here's a little screenshot: http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmfoto1su9.png Later I'll upload the engine, but I've to clean up the code before (This was my first contact to C;-)). cheers stein Am Mittwoch, den 05.03.2008, 12:13 +0100 schrieb Andrea Cimitan: > Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 11.35 +0100, Kenneth Wimer ha scritto: > > On Tuesday 04 March 2008 16:22:09 Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > You cannot rename human theme from ubuntulooks to murrine/clearlooks and > > > blame about those gtk-engines. > > > > the idea was not to simply rename anything. The gtkrc's we put in are just > > for > > testing and are in no way final. I never said I knew how to hack on gtkrc > > files ;-) The notes I wrote below are just the reults of looking at the > > clearlooks and murrine themes and trying to decide where each has a > > weekness/strength in relation to ubuntulooks > Before writing a Gtkrc, there must be at least *an idea* of what is the > style of an engine. > Clearlooks and Murrine are completely different, and they CAN'T have the > same colors (as it seems from those screenshots). > > > > > A theme should be written from scratch with an engine in mind, these are > > > probably the weird themes I have seen in years :) > > > Even ubuntulooks, which is one of the less-liked gtk-engine, seems a way > > > better than both clearlooks and murrine. > > > > So you are saying that ubuntulooks is better than both clearlooks and > > murrine? > > I do agree that writing something from scratch is the better option, but I > > am > > not a developer :D > > > No, ubuntulooks is absolutely the last engine, in terms of liking and > stability, bugs, security. But with those weird gtkrcs, it looks better. > Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was > rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and > a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. > Also adding custom widgets should be much more simpler. > > > I really hope these and derivates will NEVER be part of ubuntu. > > > > No worries, they probably won't be...at least not in this form. > > > > > If you want those engines, you should tweak the color palette, with > > > shadings and some hue changes. Or stick to ubuntulooks, which uses > > > colors in a *fake* way (I mean that it does what it wants, bg[SELECTED] > > > is used for the prelight, for example...). > > > > This is something very interesting to me but way out of my scope. I would > > need > > to understand what is "good" and what is "bad" in gtkrc as I am used to > > just > > editing the thing until it looks like I want it to. > Clearlooks loves bg[selected] with saturation < 45/100 ad value < > 86/100. > Murrine should look great with a lot of colorschemes (because of the > glossiness), but you must take a look at the contrast (see the horrible > scrollbar in Human murrine) > > > > > If you want great themes, maybe following Tangerine's palette (much more > > > adaptable to a gtk theme), I have few great ones. > > > > I would love to see anything you have. For Hardy we will stick with the > > same > > main desktop colors as we always have used, it being the last of the cycle > > and all. > Just for a hint, Mirco Muller is using a Murrine theme which I gave him > a year ago. With a matching wallpaper too. > > > > Thanks for the information, I hope we can discuss this more in the future. > > > > -- > > Ken > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Il giorno lun, 03/03/2008 alle 12.29 +0100, Kenneth Wimer ha scritto: > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > I guess that everyone noticed the change in gtk theme (we are using > > > > murrine at the moment). I also included a clearlooks theme as well and > > > > we'll test that in a couple of days). Both themes definitely need > > > > improvement if they are going to replace Ubuntu Looks which, although it > > > > does have minor bugs, has a definte look and is quite well poli
[ubuntu-art] New Murrine Release?
Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was > rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and > a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. So why hasn't there been a release? -Cory -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] gtk theme
Il giorno mer, 05/03/2008 alle 11.35 +0100, Kenneth Wimer ha scritto: > On Tuesday 04 March 2008 16:22:09 Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > You cannot rename human theme from ubuntulooks to murrine/clearlooks and > > blame about those gtk-engines. > > the idea was not to simply rename anything. The gtkrc's we put in are just > for > testing and are in no way final. I never said I knew how to hack on gtkrc > files ;-) The notes I wrote below are just the reults of looking at the > clearlooks and murrine themes and trying to decide where each has a > weekness/strength in relation to ubuntulooks Before writing a Gtkrc, there must be at least *an idea* of what is the style of an engine. Clearlooks and Murrine are completely different, and they CAN'T have the same colors (as it seems from those screenshots). > > > A theme should be written from scratch with an engine in mind, these are > > probably the weird themes I have seen in years :) > > Even ubuntulooks, which is one of the less-liked gtk-engine, seems a way > > better than both clearlooks and murrine. > > So you are saying that ubuntulooks is better than both clearlooks and > murrine? > I do agree that writing something from scratch is the better option, but I am > not a developer :D > No, ubuntulooks is absolutely the last engine, in terms of liking and stability, bugs, security. But with those weird gtkrcs, it looks better. Murrine in the svn is much more stable than the 0.53.1 release, was rewritten from scratch, and support the ability to change gradients and a lot of things directly in the gtkrc. Also adding custom widgets should be much more simpler. > > I really hope these and derivates will NEVER be part of ubuntu. > > No worries, they probably won't be...at least not in this form. > > > If you want those engines, you should tweak the color palette, with > > shadings and some hue changes. Or stick to ubuntulooks, which uses > > colors in a *fake* way (I mean that it does what it wants, bg[SELECTED] > > is used for the prelight, for example...). > > This is something very interesting to me but way out of my scope. I would > need > to understand what is "good" and what is "bad" in gtkrc as I am used to just > editing the thing until it looks like I want it to. Clearlooks loves bg[selected] with saturation < 45/100 ad value < 86/100. Murrine should look great with a lot of colorschemes (because of the glossiness), but you must take a look at the contrast (see the horrible scrollbar in Human murrine) > > > If you want great themes, maybe following Tangerine's palette (much more > > adaptable to a gtk theme), I have few great ones. > > I would love to see anything you have. For Hardy we will stick with the same > main desktop colors as we always have used, it being the last of the cycle > and all. Just for a hint, Mirco Muller is using a Murrine theme which I gave him a year ago. With a matching wallpaper too. > > Thanks for the information, I hope we can discuss this more in the future. > > -- > Ken > > > Cheers > > > > Il giorno lun, 03/03/2008 alle 12.29 +0100, Kenneth Wimer ha scritto: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I guess that everyone noticed the change in gtk theme (we are using > > > murrine at the moment). I also included a clearlooks theme as well and > > > we'll test that in a couple of days). Both themes definitely need > > > improvement if they are going to replace Ubuntu Looks which, although it > > > does have minor bugs, has a definte look and is quite well polished. With > > > an eye to the future, here is a list of +'s and -'s for each theme. In > > > many cases the -'s can be easily solved ...feel free to help :-) > > > > > > Human Ubuntu Looks (#1): > > >- lines between menu bar, toolbars and windows are bad; but we don't > > > have to get rid of them just yet > > >+ we like the obviously ticked checkboxes and radio buttons > > >+ and that the tick from the checkbox is larger than the box > > >- toggle button doesn't share the obviousness > > >+ liked the markers in the progress bars > > >+ liked the inset tray look of sliders > > >+ liked the filled insides of sliders > > >+ liked the prelight colour of scrollbars > > >+ liked tab colours and no gradient > > >+ selected/active light orange bg (menu's, etc) color is perfect > > > > > >Human Clearlooks (#2): > > >- menubar different colour to everything else > > >- gradient buttons instead of glossy > > >- no prelight of scrollbars > > >- no colour inside sliders > > >- checkboxes not obviously checked > > >+ but toggle buttons are much more obvious > > >- don't like tab gradients > > >+ but colour is ok > > >- progress bars look like tanks, no markers > > > > > >Human Murrine (#3): > > >- lines between menu bar and toolbars, and toolbars and rest of > > > window; not urgent to remove > > >? menu bar is very strange > > >+ but the menus themselves look great with
Re: [ubuntu-art] gtk theme
On Tuesday 04 March 2008 16:22:09 Andrea Cimitan wrote: > You cannot rename human theme from ubuntulooks to murrine/clearlooks and > blame about those gtk-engines. the idea was not to simply rename anything. The gtkrc's we put in are just for testing and are in no way final. I never said I knew how to hack on gtkrc files ;-) The notes I wrote below are just the reults of looking at the clearlooks and murrine themes and trying to decide where each has a weekness/strength in relation to ubuntulooks > A theme should be written from scratch with an engine in mind, these are > probably the weird themes I have seen in years :) > Even ubuntulooks, which is one of the less-liked gtk-engine, seems a way > better than both clearlooks and murrine. So you are saying that ubuntulooks is better than both clearlooks and murrine? I do agree that writing something from scratch is the better option, but I am not a developer :D > I really hope these and derivates will NEVER be part of ubuntu. No worries, they probably won't be...at least not in this form. > If you want those engines, you should tweak the color palette, with > shadings and some hue changes. Or stick to ubuntulooks, which uses > colors in a *fake* way (I mean that it does what it wants, bg[SELECTED] > is used for the prelight, for example...). This is something very interesting to me but way out of my scope. I would need to understand what is "good" and what is "bad" in gtkrc as I am used to just editing the thing until it looks like I want it to. > If you want great themes, maybe following Tangerine's palette (much more > adaptable to a gtk theme), I have few great ones. I would love to see anything you have. For Hardy we will stick with the same main desktop colors as we always have used, it being the last of the cycle and all. Thanks for the information, I hope we can discuss this more in the future. -- Ken > Cheers > > Il giorno lun, 03/03/2008 alle 12.29 +0100, Kenneth Wimer ha scritto: > > Hi all, > > > > I guess that everyone noticed the change in gtk theme (we are using > > murrine at the moment). I also included a clearlooks theme as well and > > we'll test that in a couple of days). Both themes definitely need > > improvement if they are going to replace Ubuntu Looks which, although it > > does have minor bugs, has a definte look and is quite well polished. With > > an eye to the future, here is a list of +'s and -'s for each theme. In > > many cases the -'s can be easily solved ...feel free to help :-) > > > > Human Ubuntu Looks (#1): > >- lines between menu bar, toolbars and windows are bad; but we don't > > have to get rid of them just yet > >+ we like the obviously ticked checkboxes and radio buttons > >+ and that the tick from the checkbox is larger than the box > >- toggle button doesn't share the obviousness > >+ liked the markers in the progress bars > >+ liked the inset tray look of sliders > >+ liked the filled insides of sliders > >+ liked the prelight colour of scrollbars > >+ liked tab colours and no gradient > >+ selected/active light orange bg (menu's, etc) color is perfect > > > >Human Clearlooks (#2): > >- menubar different colour to everything else > >- gradient buttons instead of glossy > >- no prelight of scrollbars > >- no colour inside sliders > >- checkboxes not obviously checked > >+ but toggle buttons are much more obvious > >- don't like tab gradients > >+ but colour is ok > >- progress bars look like tanks, no markers > > > >Human Murrine (#3): > >- lines between menu bar and toolbars, and toolbars and rest of > > window; not urgent to remove > >? menu bar is very strange > >+ but the menus themselves look great with the gutter > >- quite square in shape, rounded is more pleasing to the eye > >- progress bars are tanks, no markers, and not inset > >- sliders also not inset > >+ but filled > >+ obviously checked > >- but white > >- toggle button isn't obvious at all, quite nasty in fact > >+ tabs have no gradient and gutter colours > >- no scrollbar prelight > >- entire scrollbar coloured -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
