Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Md Mozammel Haque
Agreed! But a well designed desktop java app can sometime be very
successful. I'm also not fond of Java on the desktop side, but this
applicaiton: JAlbum (www.jalbum.net), is a stark contrast.

- Mozammel

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> For desktop applications, Java really hurts. On my desktop, unless
> there's no alternative or I am forced to do, I never install anything
> that is made with Java. And on my Mac, there's no Java app.
>
> --
> M. Nasimul Haque, M.Sc.(SUST)
> Wessex Institute of Technology
> Southampton, UK
>
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
I completely agree with Tarin. Just to add a note, VB is a dead
language. Microsoft officially discontinued it. However, since you
already tried Java. You can chose from Python or Ruby. If you choose
Java for desktop application, you'll lose myself as a user of your
software :P

Qt, gtk+, wx are frameworks for rapid developments. These are similar
to API. But in a good structured object oriented manner. For Python,
you can find the bindings for these, but for ruby these are not fully
implemented yet.

On your Ubuntu machine, install wxpython by running

sudo apt-get install python-wx2.8 python-wxglade

Then go to the site http://wxpython.org/tutorial.php you'll start
writing GUI app in no time. wxglade is a GUI editor like form editor
in VB.

Gnome and KDE are the desktop environment. You know Ubuntu, Kubuntu,
Fluxbuntu, Xubuntu does look different to each other. They look
different because of the desktop environment and window manager. Gnome
and KDE are only two DE among numerous others for Linux.

Nasim

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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Tarin Mahmood
The following is only my opinion... may be many of will not agree, maybe it
would sound harsh ... but at the end its only my opinion

Remember this line:

*Developing Application is not a child's play.*

You don't learn it in one day/One month or not even in a Year. It takes
time. It takes a long time to learn it and it takes more time to make use of
what you've learned. Its not that you'll start making cool application if
you just know how to write a code! Developing an application is so much more
than that. Programming knowledge is just a small part of it.

Here is a good article about this 

Now I come to the matter of Programming languages.
Choose what suits you the best. and after you choose, be ready to give a lot
time after learning it. If you have a good logic sense, you could learn the
basics of any languages in a short time as most programming languages syntax
structures are almost the same. you might mix-up a lot, get confused a
little, but at the end you'll get it, its only a matter of time depending on
your determination and willingness. if you are not willing to push it then
don't waste your time, programming is not for you. Asking us for a suitable
language will do no good but wasting our time.

And when you have the good foundation you have to study. No not the
University studies, but study on developing processes, project managements
etc. Though you can develop a application without the knowledge on these
stuffs, but you'll make terrible applications.

Nobody can tell you what suits you the best, its always up to you but we can
certainly tell you which language you should stay away from.
Basic/Visual Basic is definitely for a armature programming but It should
not be taken as a pro language or a starting language. And please! VB6
certainly sucks as a OO language. maybe they improved a lot in VB7(aka
Vb.Net) still its a shitty language. So don't go for any language that is
similar to VB.It will destroy your Programming skills. Having a nice
interface is not going to teach how to program.
Python, Ruby and Java are truly OO languages and you should pick one of
them.

Python is the way to go for you I believe.
Dive into Python  will be a good
place to start.
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Masum Masum
Dear Friends
Thanx a lot for your thoughtful replies. Thing is that I've started this
thread mainly to encourage people who are not really a computer-pro. I
wanted to have an Idea as one of those who has the interest to create
something new with their creative Ideas without going through all those
coding and header files. I know C is the Boss of all programming, Java is
also very versetile but thing is that, these languages are comfortable when
you really have a solid base on it. I mean a CSE student or a computer
professional. But I want to encourage others who want to contribute as a
hobby not as a die hard professional.  Like I have no
educational/Organizational background on Programming. I am just a user. But
seenig these wonderful creations I also feel the interest of creating
something but again dont want to go through all those deeper studies on any
language. You know initially LINUX was known as "For Geeks by the Geeks."
and normal users where not even botherd to know abour it. But now it has
become "Software for Human". So, Now I feel if I try I can create something
(May not be a very solid or a very complex thing.) Thatswhy I was looking
for some sort of OOP (if you noticed I've mentioned VB). I've found GAMBAS
have pretty nice interface in that aspect (though none of you mentioned it).
But I am not sure how deep it can go. Cause in VB with the help of API i
could easily use the DLL files. Even it is possible to write new DLL's even
via Delphi. Again windos structure was somehow easy cause all I need to do
after fixing the right Sub routines and functions give a compile command and
things are ready. But here I am a bit confused wat is QT or GTK or Gnome
,KDE.(As a newbie in LINUX).  Though C is best but i normally dont go for C
if I dont need to write anything dfor memory management. In fact I find in
windows environment most of the Calls can be done through API.May not be as
efficient as C. Again Java is verstile but it keep on changing too much I
tried JAVA long ago but afterfew years when I've started again I found lot
of libraries have changed. Personally I avoid JAVA cause even after
upgrading it keeps back the old libraries in the hard drive. I am not sure
why is that cause new libraries are suppose to be backwrd competible.
However between python and RUBY I've just found RUBY first and started to
give it a try and afterwards when I went for Python I've started mixing up
the syntaxs (I'm not that sharp to start learning two languages together)
May be I'll try it when I'll give up RUBY.
So guys plz suggest what is a good language for a newbie who does not really
have a very solid background. And dont want to have a kernel level
knowledge. OOps it has become too long. Sorry for being such a jerk and
writting so many things,
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Shahriar Tariq
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I see your point. But still there exist some people, who doesn't know
> the appropriate forum. We in the projanmo forum, always get some posts
> like, the site design is not good follow somewherein. That person does
> not know the difference between forum and blog, right?
>
> Whatever, even if it is a fake. Isn't it a good one?
>
> Nasim
>
yes I agree with you

Thanking you
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Omi Azad

ঐ শালাকে উবুন্টু ফোরামের লিঙ্ক দিছে কে?

হাঃ হাঃ হাঃ হাঃ

উফ্

Nasimul Haque wrote:

উবুন্তু ফোরামের এই টপিকটা পড়ে বেশ মজা পেলাম। এটা ব্যাখ্যা করার মত ভাষা
আমার নাই। তাই কেউ যদি মজাটা বুঝতে না পারেন, তবে দুঃখিত।

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4178264

   


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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
For desktop applications, Java really hurts. On my desktop, unless
there's no alternative or I am forced to do, I never install anything
that is made with Java. And on my Mac, there's no Java app.

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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Hasin Hayder
@Tarin

My Bad, I am a real stupid :D - you already mentioned Netbeans

Didnt read the whole message - sorry again :D

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Hasin Hayder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> @Tarin
>
> Give netbeans a try. It;s GUI builder is simply awesome, state of the art
> :)
>
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Tarin Mahmood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> While Java is a Very powerful Programming language, Developing GUI is a
>> pain, seriously! I'm yet to find a decent GUI builder for it, The best one
>> is probably netbeans which generates ugly codes. I wonder why they are not
>> using XML based GUIs like glade3 uses.
>>
>> For a beginner Gui development in Java will be very very frustrating. I'll
>> suggest go with a simple One, and Python will be best IMO. Go with wxWidget,
>> I've not used it but heard good things about it. I personally use
>> Glade3+libglade+python which does its job pretty nicely
>>
>> Python will be very easy to learn for you as you already know Ruby. They
>> have some similarities.
>>
>> But I suggest if you want to program in Linux then learn C. it is the best
>> programming language. as Linux is not all about GUI programs ;)
>>
>> There is a book name Advanced Linux Programming, its a free book, get it
>> ... it will help you to get started in Linux programming ;)
>>
>> good luck
>>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Masum Masum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear friends
>>> I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with
>>> GAMBAS and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual
>>> Basic. So what's your suggestion?
>>>
>>> --
>>> ubuntu-bd mailing list
>>> ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-bd mailing list
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>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards
> Hasin Hayder
> Trippert Inc. [http://www.trippert.com]
> Gophernow. [http://www.gophernow.com]
> Homepage: http://hasin.wordpress.com




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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Hasin Hayder
@Tarin

Give netbeans a try. It;s GUI builder is simply awesome, state of the art :)

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Tarin Mahmood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> While Java is a Very powerful Programming language, Developing GUI is a
> pain, seriously! I'm yet to find a decent GUI builder for it, The best one
> is probably netbeans which generates ugly codes. I wonder why they are not
> using XML based GUIs like glade3 uses.
>
> For a beginner Gui development in Java will be very very frustrating. I'll
> suggest go with a simple One, and Python will be best IMO. Go with wxWidget,
> I've not used it but heard good things about it. I personally use
> Glade3+libglade+python which does its job pretty nicely
>
> Python will be very easy to learn for you as you already know Ruby. They
> have some similarities.
>
> But I suggest if you want to program in Linux then learn C. it is the best
> programming language. as Linux is not all about GUI programs ;)
>
> There is a book name Advanced Linux Programming, its a free book, get it
> ... it will help you to get started in Linux programming ;)
>
> good luck
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Masum Masum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear friends
>> I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with
>> GAMBAS and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual
>> Basic. So what's your suggestion?
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-bd mailing list
>> ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>>
>>
>
> --
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>
>


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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Tarin Mahmood
While Java is a Very powerful Programming language, Developing GUI is a
pain, seriously! I'm yet to find a decent GUI builder for it, The best one
is probably netbeans which generates ugly codes. I wonder why they are not
using XML based GUIs like glade3 uses.

For a beginner Gui development in Java will be very very frustrating. I'll
suggest go with a simple One, and Python will be best IMO. Go with wxWidget,
I've not used it but heard good things about it. I personally use
Glade3+libglade+python which does its job pretty nicely

Python will be very easy to learn for you as you already know Ruby. They
have some similarities.

But I suggest if you want to program in Linux then learn C. it is the best
programming language. as Linux is not all about GUI programs ;)

There is a book name Advanced Linux Programming, its a free book, get it ...
it will help you to get started in Linux programming ;)

good luck

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Masum Masum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear friends
> I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with
> GAMBAS and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual
> Basic. So what's your suggestion?
>
> --
> ubuntu-bd mailing list
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>
>
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
Before you want to dive into Java, I would recommend to read these first -

http://www.ferg.org/projects/python_java_side-by-side.html

http://www.dmh2000.com/cjpr/

http://furryland.org/~mikec/bench/

http://twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/rant/python-vs-java.html

http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2007/05/amazingly-bad-apis.html

Nasim

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Tanvir Hossain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you should try learning java. Java has a large install base. It also
> has the ability to program GUI and other thinks. So if you want to write
> program for normal usage I would recommend java which has everything built
> in in a single programming language. After learning java, you can also write
> dynamic web pages using JSP. However, if you want to do system programming,
> than C is the most efficient and recommended.
>
> If anybody wants to program in windows, I would definitely recommend C# and
> .net framework 3.5.
>
> Tanvir
>
> Visit My WebPage http://www.mirTanvir.com
>
>
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Masum Masum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Ubuntu Bangladesh 
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:37:38 AM
> Subject: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?
>
> Dear friends
> I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with GAMBAS
> and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual Basic.
> So what's your suggestion?
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-bd mailing list
> ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>
>



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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Tanvir Hossain
I think you should try learning java. Java has a large install base. It also 
has the ability to program GUI and other thinks. So if you want to write 
program for normal usage I would recommend java which has everything built in 
in a single programming language. After learning java, you can also write 
dynamic web pages using JSP. However, if you want to do system programming, 
than C is the most efficient and recommended. 

 
If anybody wants to program in windows, I would definitely recommend C# and 
.net framework 3.5. 

Tanvir

Visit My WebPage http://www.mirTanvir.com





- Original Message 
From: Masum Masum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Ubuntu Bangladesh 
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:37:38 AM
Subject: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

Dear friends 
I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with GAMBAS 
and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual Basic. So 
what's your suggestion?



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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
I see your point. But still there exist some people, who doesn't know
the appropriate forum. We in the projanmo forum, always get some posts
like, the site design is not good follow somewherein. That person does
not know the difference between forum and blog, right?

Whatever, even if it is a fake. Isn't it a good one?

Nasim

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Shahriar Tariq <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Shahriar, this kind of people do exist. Believe me. Our recieptionist
>> has no idea what is windows. She mails us regular and maintains our
>> library from her computer. For this reason, she has two icons on her
>> desktop. When I came here first, I asked her what is the address of
>> our library. She then showed me her desktop icon and told me to click
>> it. She does not even know that icon is specially made for her by the
>> sysadmin which only works on her desktop. I was really surprised that
>> time. :-o
>>
>> Nasim
>
> Yes I understand that... but this person is using a pc using internet,
> browsing to a forum and browsing to a dedicated Ubuntu Forum and saying this
> thing... it is really amusing to me.. When you post on the forum I expect
> that you know what the forum consists of.. and whom you are communicating
> with.
>
> Thanking you
> Shahriar
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>



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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Shahriar Tariq
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Shahriar, this kind of people do exist. Believe me. Our recieptionist
> has no idea what is windows. She mails us regular and maintains our
> library from her computer. For this reason, she has two icons on her
> desktop. When I came here first, I asked her what is the address of
> our library. She then showed me her desktop icon and told me to click
> it. She does not even know that icon is specially made for her by the
> sysadmin which only works on her desktop. I was really surprised that
> time. :-o
>
> Nasim
>
Yes I understand that... but this person is using a pc using internet,
browsing to a forum and browsing to a dedicated Ubuntu Forum and saying this
thing... it is really amusing to me.. When you post on the forum I expect
that you know what the forum consists of.. and whom you are communicating
with.

Thanking you
Shahriar
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
Shahriar, this kind of people do exist. Believe me. Our recieptionist
has no idea what is windows. She mails us regular and maintains our
library from her computer. For this reason, she has two icons on her
desktop. When I came here first, I asked her what is the address of
our library. She then showed me her desktop icon and told me to click
it. She does not even know that icon is specially made for her by the
sysadmin which only works on her desktop. I was really surprised that
time. :-o

Nasim

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:08 PM, রুবন <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> আমিও হাসছি কিন্তু। হাহাহাহাহা...
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Russell John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> হাসতে হাসতে পেট ব্যাথা হয়ে গেল!
>>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > উবুন্তু ফোরামের এই টপিকটা পড়ে বেশ মজা পেলাম। এটা ব্যাখ্যা করার মত ভাষা
>> > আমার নাই। তাই কেউ যদি মজাটা বুঝতে না পারেন, তবে দুঃখিত।
>> >
>> > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4178264
>> >
>> > --
>> > M. Nasimul Haque, M.Sc.(SUST)
>> > Wessex Institute of Technology
>> > Southampton, UK
>> > --
>> > ubuntu-bd mailing list
>> > ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
>> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> take effect. Reboot now? [ OK ]
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>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>
>
>
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread রুবন
আমিও হাসছি কিন্তু। হাহাহাহাহা...



On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Russell John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> হাসতে হাসতে পেট ব্যাথা হয়ে গেল!
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > উবুন্তু ফোরামের এই টপিকটা পড়ে বেশ মজা পেলাম। এটা ব্যাখ্যা করার মত ভাষা
> > আমার নাই। তাই কেউ যদি মজাটা বুঝতে না পারেন, তবে দুঃখিত।
> >
> > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4178264
> >
> > --
> > M. Nasimul Haque, M.Sc.(SUST)
> > Wessex Institute of Technology
> > Southampton, UK
> > --
> > ubuntu-bd mailing list
> > ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for the change to
> take effect. Reboot now? [ OK ]
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Angel
lOl

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Russell John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> হাসতে হাসতে পেট ব্যাথা হয়ে গেল!
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > উবুন্তু ফোরামের এই টপিকটা পড়ে বেশ মজা পেলাম। এটা ব্যাখ্যা করার মত ভাষা
> > আমার নাই। তাই কেউ যদি মজাটা বুঝতে না পারেন, তবে দুঃখিত।
> >
> > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4178264
> >
> > --
> > M. Nasimul Haque, M.Sc.(SUST)
> > Wessex Institute of Technology
> > Southampton, UK
> > --
> > ubuntu-bd mailing list
> > ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for the change to
> take effect. Reboot now? [ OK ]
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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Russell John
হাসতে হাসতে পেট ব্যাথা হয়ে গেল!

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Nasimul Haque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> উবুন্তু ফোরামের এই টপিকটা পড়ে বেশ মজা পেলাম। এটা ব্যাখ্যা করার মত ভাষা
> আমার নাই। তাই কেউ যদি মজাটা বুঝতে না পারেন, তবে দুঃখিত।
>
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4178264
>
> --
> M. Nasimul Haque, M.Sc.(SUST)
> Wessex Institute of Technology
> Southampton, UK
> --
> ubuntu-bd mailing list
> ubuntu-bd@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>



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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Shahriar Tariq
ha ha ha ha

I think the pokerface was joking
otherwise s/he is the dumbest person on the forum..

ha ha ha
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[ Ubuntu-BD ] Clueless

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
উবুন্তু ফোরামের এই টপিকটা পড়ে বেশ মজা পেলাম। এটা ব্যাখ্যা করার মত ভাষা
আমার নাই। তাই কেউ যদি মজাটা বুঝতে না পারেন, তবে দুঃখিত।

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4178264

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Re: [ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Nasimul Haque
C/C++ are the preferred language to write GUI programs in Linux. To
write Gnome applications, there is GTK+ and for KDE, there is Qt. But
if you don't want to learn C/C++. It's okay. You build GUI
applications with any other language. Ruby is also good. But I suggest
to learn Python. You can do whatever with Python. For GUI applications
you can use wxPython or PythonQt or GTKPython. Remember that wx will
give you consistent look in any environment including Windows, Mac
while Qt looks like KDE and GTK looks like Gnome.

Enjoy developing in linux.

Nasim

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Masum Masum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear friends
> I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with GAMBAS
> and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual Basic.
> So what's your suggestion?
>
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[ Ubuntu-BD ] How to write Program for Linux ?

2008-05-15 Thread Masum Masum
Dear friends
I'm interested to right programs for Linux. Presently I'm trying with GAMBAS
and Ruby. I don't know C or C++. Just have some knowledge on Visual Basic.
So what's your suggestion?
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