[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
Whoops, in all my previous post I swapped -v with -V :\ The recommended method is -v, not -V. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
Please force inclusion of Theora 1.1 in Karmic. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
Like Fabio already said quality (-v) setting doesn't compare with theora 1.0 and theora 1.1. You should compare "quality 1 --optimized" with Theora 1.0 to something like "quality 4 (--optimized?) with Theora 1.1, get a file size relatively similar (but higher quality with 1.1). So in other words, you cannot order 1.0 to produce something like 1.1 does with -v 1 or -v 2, so you should start 1.1 comparison from a -v N value where you get similar filesize to -v 0 or -v 1 with 1.0. The "1.1 -V 1400 --optimize" is again wrong, as CBR is the wrong choice for anything else than streaming, and you don't get a real CBR with Theora 1.0 -V 1000 (the bitrate varies wildly, similar to using -v setting, but averages eventually on a random value of ca. 1400 in this case). So again you don't have anything produced out of Theora 1.0 you could compare 1.1's "-V " against. In summary, Theora 1.0 is broken in many ways and does not do what you order it to do - instead it always varies the bitrate, and gives big file sizes even on the lowest quality settings. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
There is something that still eludes me: not only are the video artifacts insanely more apparent when using the naïve bitrate method, but some of my benchmarks were also done with the quality encoding method (-v instead of -V). And when you compare "quality 1 --optimize", theora 1.0 still destroys 1.1. I understand (and expect) the filesize should go down when using the same "quality" setting value, but the visual quality should stay the same, no? And there's those huge macroblocks and random colors, that doesn't feel normal. I also added "MVI_0442 theora 1.1 -V 1400 --optimize (match theora 1.0 -V 1000)" to the benchmarks; as the name implies, I wanted to compare to the "-V 1000" from theora 1.0. The output indeed starts to be similar, but it still seems as if 1.1 is more block and has weird color noise. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
At least part of the problem is that 1.0 does not respect the bitrate settings at all, and also the quality setting varies wildly. So when you encoded with 1.0, you had double/triple bitrates to what you specified. For 1.1, the new two-pass thing is what really gets the best results. Finally, the test clip is not maybe the best as it's relatively soft and 1.0 had the hardest time with anything crisp. As you can see from your files sizes, there are really no comparable clips. Ca. 1000 kbps is probably too low for 720p30 video, and all the 1.0 clips use at least 1500kbps instead. I've also understood constant/average bitrate has problems in one-pass mode especially with theora so that it's better to use the quality setting, or the two-pass method only available in 1.1. Therefore I tried the lowest quality setting with 1.0 which still took relatively a lot, 1325kbps, for video. I then made comparable but theora 1.1 one-pass (-v 4) and two-pass (-V xxx - here bitrate is used since it's target for two-pass encoding). I also made a higher bitrate theora 1.0 encoding, still using a quality mode so that quality wouldn't suffer (not that 1.0 would give much respect to the bitrate setting anyway). And a comparable 1.1 two-pass encoding with lower bitrate: http://users.tkk.fi/~tajyrink/theora/clips/ (won't be there forever) I think the biggest difference is between MVI_0442_theora10_2534kbps.ogv and MVI_0442_theora11_2348kbps_twopass.ogv - the latter has much less blockiness/noise and more detail at the same time, quite close to the original. The 1.0 version with higher bitrate is much worse Also, look at the gradients with theora10_1325kbps.ogv compared to MVI_0442_theora11_1279kbps_twopass.ogv and MVI_0442_theora11_1457kbps.ogv. The 1.1 versions have more detail as well, though somewhat more luminance noise since the 1.0 is very smoothed out. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
Hi Jean-François, thanks for the test. You should note at least two things: 1) theora 1.0 was not able to meet the selected birate when using -v option. From http://www.theora.org/news/#libtheora-1.1.0: "The new rate control module hits its target much more accurately and obeys strict buffer constraints, including dropping frames if necessary. The latter is needed to enable live streaming without disconnecting users or pausing to buffer during sudden motion. Obeying these constraints can yield substantially worse quality than the 1.0 encoder, whose rate control did not obey any such constraints, and often landed only in the vague neighborhood of the desired rate target. The new --soft-target option can relax a few of these constraints, ..." This mean the the worse quality with 1.1 and -v option is a "feature" and not a "bug". Indeed with 1.0 when you selected -v 500 or -v 1000 the bitrate was almost the same: the encoder was not able to use the 500Kbps bitrate. You can check the real bitrate with "ogginfo". Of your encoding: 1.0 -v500 is using a 1344,850909 kb/s Average bitrate --> much higher that the 500 requested 1.1 -v500 is using a 561,485643 kb/s Average bitrate --> very similar to the 500 requested 1.0 -v1000 is using a 1411,508464 kb/s Average bitrate --> much higher that the 1000 requested 1.1 -v1000 is using a 997,679248 kb/s Average bitrate --> very similar to the 1000 requested 2) When using the 1.1 theora the -V meaning has changed. You can't compare two files encoded with the same -V value, but you should change the -V value up to getting similar bitrate (or you could use the --two- pass option). Also remember that the -v option should only be used when you want to get a file with a constant bitrate (e.g. for video streaming over Internet). For best quality you should use -V. So it would be nice if you can redo the -V test changing the -V value up to getting a similar size. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
I am left dumbfounded. I did some visual quality benchmarks using ffmpeg2theora, and in every case, theora 1.0 *DESTROYED* theora 1.1 in terms of resulting quality. Something is going way wrong here, and I don't know what it is. I have outputted the results of my benchmarks here for you to see: http://jeff.ecchi.ca/public/theora/ My methodology: - run ffmpeg2theora 0.23 (with the libtheora0 1.0 package also installed) on various settings - run it again with the same settings, but with ffmpeg2theora 0.25 and libtheora0 1.1 - compare the look of the image Results: with the default settings (quality 5), there is no visible difference. But as soon as you get a bit more aggressive by lowering the quality setting to 1 or by using a bitrate encoding method at 1000 or 500 kbps, the results with theora 1.1 are *horrible* compared to what theora 1.0 produces. Example commands I used: ffmpeg2theora -v 1 --optimize MVI_0442.MOV ffmpeg2theora -V 500 --optimize MVI_0442.MOV Disclaimer: the source clip (MVI_0442.MOV) is sample footage shot by Eugenia for her Canon SX200 IS review on OSNews. I used it simply because it was the best quality clip I had around for doing benchmarks on aesthetics. I would be glad to be proven wrong, because I still haven't found a way to make theora thusnelda live to the expectations. Among the things I noticed is that the newer ffmpeg2theora/theora produces smaller files *even though I specified the bitrate*, which makes no sense to me, and could explain *part* of the phenomenon. I would be glad to have a *reliable* way of testing. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
If someone want to test it a PPA is available here: https://launchpad.net/~theora/+archive/ppa -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
** Changed in: libtheora (Ubuntu) Status: New => Confirmed -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 436726] Re: Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable)
** Summary changed: - Theora 1.1 "Thusnelda" has been released + Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) ** Description changed: Further information: http://theora.org/news/ How about bringing this into Karmic? + + Update: 1.1.0-1 is now in debian. -- Please sync libtheora 1.1.0-1 from debian (unstable) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/436726 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
