[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[dmt]

So was TRIM backported to 2.6.32 after all?
I see the following pieces in the description of 2.6.32-39 update:

sata_mv: fix broken DSM/TRIM support (v2)
LP: #644694

ext4: make trim/discard optional (and off by default)

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  Trim support missing from Linux kernel

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Alex Mandel]

I'd just wanted to add that this doesn't only effect laptop/netbook
users. I have a low power server with an SSD (atom 5w) and would love
trim support on that. I also recently bought 2 new rack servers each
with an SSD drive for scientific computing purposes. I'm not terribly
fond of having to use non-LTS server editions (though I'm not sure if
they have as many problems as the non-LTS desktop which tend to have
experimental GUI changes).

Anyone know how safe is it to use officially backported kernels?
http://sites.google.com/site/lightrush/random-1/howtoinstalllinuxkernel2635onubuntu1004lucidfromubuntu1010mavericktheeasyway

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  Trim support missing from Linux kernel

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[letstrynl]

@Josh Brown: I really appreciate that you're trying to answer my questions, and 
thanks for your suggestion.
I'm not sure if a question there would produce any answers, though ;-)

>From the the page at 
>https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/MainlineBuilds?action=show&redirect=KernelMainlineBuilds:
1) "The mainline kernels builds are produced for debugging purposes and 
therefore come with no support. Use them at your own risk. "
2) "By definition the mainline kernel builds are made from virgin unaltered 
mainline kernel sources and therefore do not, and should not, include any 
Ubuntu patches or drivers. There are also no binary drivers for these kernels."
3) The v2.6.32.x/v2.6.33.y combined tree appears to be missing.

So my conclusion from the info on this page: yes, a Ubuntu kernel
config, but no support and no Ubuntu specific patches in these custom
kernels. And thus also no reason to run them on an LTS system.

I'm also fully aware of the fact that LTS versions are made for environments 
that require more stability.
That's why I am developing for LTS and not for other versions. 
By the way: a lot of business users have SSD enabled laptops by now.
If their company (as it should) requires an LTS version to be installed, 
Canonical is creating a problem here.

For now I've installed 11.04 on my SSD enabled demo (as in 10.04 demo) laptop 
to check the 10.04 filesystem once-in-a-while.
I feel this is a crappy solution (as in: install Debian testing to make Debian 
Stable stable).
I've read that ext4 TRIM is supported from 2.6.33 and xfs TRIM is supported 
from 2.6.39 (!!!).
So I had to revert from using my favorite filesystem on my demo laptop. Grmpf.

I just would like Canonical to take a stand here (or elsewhere) and be clear 
and transparent about LTS on SSD.
Right now it's left to developers what is supported and what is not.

I've not found any remarks on stability anywhere, apart from what I've 
mentioned before.
Maybe you (or anyone) have a link to a developer thread where this is dicussed ?
I spent some time to find one, couldn't find any.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, and there is a simple (and stable) solution out of 
this situation.
I'm open to suggestions.

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Josh Brown]

@letstrynl: In the absence of comments from Canonical, or indeed anyone
else, I'll try to answer some of your questions.

The aforementioned kernel PPA  contains fully supported Ubuntu-patched versions of the
Linux kernel. In fact, it even seems to have a `2.6.33.5-lucid` kernel
which should include desired TRIM support.

TRIM is not supported in 10.04 because long term support releases
require more stability than normal releases. For example, Ubuntu LTS may
be used in corporate environments where data loss, as is a possibility
with new storage device drivers, could have serious consequences.

The decision not to include TRIM support in 10.04 is unlikely to change
at this point; `Bump`ing this bug report is unlikely to help the
situation. New points and new information are always welcome; your
recent comments, however, are better suited elsewhere. I suggest that if
you are not satisfied with the answers I have given, you start a new
question at
.

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Title:
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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Josh Brown]

Removed the ALSA info in the description as it is irrelevant.

** Description changed:

- Would it be possible to backport the 2.6.33 TRIM support into the Ubuntu 
2.6.32 kernel? It's a crucial feature for us SSD users.
- --- 
- AlsaVersion: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver Version 1.0.21.
- Architecture: i386
- ArecordDevices:
-   List of CAPTURE Hardware Devices 
-  card 0: Intel [HDA Intel], device 0: AD198x Analog [AD198x Analog]
-Subdevices: 2/2
-Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
-Subdevice #1: subdevice #1
- AudioDevicesInUse:
-  USERPID ACCESS COMMAND
-  /dev/snd/controlC0:  philipp1410 F pulseaudio
- CRDA: Error: [Errno 2] No such file or directory
- Card0.Amixer.info:
-  Card hw:0 'Intel'/'HDA Intel at 0xfe22 irq 17'
-Mixer name : 'Analog Devices AD1984'
-Components : 'HDA:11d41984,17aa20bb,00100400'
-Controls  : 29
-Simple ctrls  : 18
- Card29.Amixer.info:
-  Card hw:29 'ThinkPadEC'/'ThinkPad Console Audio Control at EC reg 0x30, fw 
7KHT24WW-1.08'
-Mixer name : 'ThinkPad EC 7KHT24WW-1.08'
-Components : ''
-Controls  : 1
-Simple ctrls  : 1
- Card29.Amixer.values:
-  Simple mixer control 'Console',0
-Capabilities: pswitch pswitch-joined penum
-Playback channels: Mono
-Mono: Playback [on]
- DistroRelease: Ubuntu 10.04
- HibernationDevice: RESUME=UUID=4ef9255f-d07f-457e-8fc4-553dea65fc81
- InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 10.04 "Lucid Lynx" - Release Candidate i386 
(20100419.1)
- MachineType: LENOVO 6459CTO
- Package: linux (not installed)
- PccardctlIdent:
-  Socket 0:
-no product info available
- PccardctlStatus:
-  Socket 0:
-no card
- ProcCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.32-21-generic 
root=UUID=068f3dbe-a038-4a53-9093-9c2b0c05c025 ro quiet splash
- ProcEnviron:
-  LANG=en_US.utf8
-  SHELL=/bin/bash
- ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 2.6.32-21.32-generic 2.6.32.11+drm33.2
- Regression: No
- RelatedPackageVersions: linux-firmware 1.34
- Reproducible: Yes
- Tags: lucid kconfig needs-upstream-testing
- Uname: Linux 2.6.32-21-generic i686
- UserGroups: adm admin cdrom dialout lpadmin plugdev sambashare
- dmi.bios.date: 06/03/2008
- dmi.bios.vendor: LENOVO
- dmi.bios.version: 7LETB8WW (2.18 )
- dmi.board.name: 6459CTO
- dmi.board.vendor: LENOVO
- dmi.board.version: Not Available
- dmi.chassis.asset.tag: No Asset Information
- dmi.chassis.type: 10
- dmi.chassis.vendor: LENOVO
- dmi.chassis.version: Not Available
- dmi.modalias: 
dmi:bvnLENOVO:bvr7LETB8WW(2.18):bd06/03/2008:svnLENOVO:pn6459CTO:pvrThinkPadT61:rvnLENOVO:rn6459CTO:rvrNotAvailable:cvnLENOVO:ct10:cvrNotAvailable:
- dmi.product.name: 6459CTO
- dmi.product.version: ThinkPad T61
- dmi.sys.vendor: LENOVO
+ Would it be possible to backport the 2.6.33 TRIM support into the Ubuntu
+ 2.6.32 kernel? It's a crucial feature for us SSD users.

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Title:
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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[letstrynl]

Grmpf, I'm getting annoyed by the non-informing attitude of Canonical.

A while ago heaven and earth was moved for something as insignificant as 
plymouth.
Which still gives me an ugly startup on my Nvidia card with proprietary 
drivers, by the way.

But for proper SSD support I have to install a non-supported non-Ubuntu patched 
kernel, which takes away any advantages of the whole idea behind using a Long 
Time Support version.
No real options here.

I've seen remarks about not supporting SSD's because not all SSD's are fully 
ATA compliant.
As far as I know these are supported in higher kernels, so ...

I've seen remarks saying SSD support would make Lucid unstable.
Why support them in higher versions then ?

Bump.

I'm full of questions and am willing to agree if good reasons are given,
but for now I haven't seen any good reasons to not backport SSD support.
Total silence.

Come on guys, speak up and let your voice be heard !

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[letstrynl]

@Josh Brown: thx for your reaction.
I can understand that it would be a lot of work because all filesystem and 
utility related stuff would have to be updated also, besides the kernel 
backport patching.

I would very much appreciate if someone from Canonical would comment on this, 
as I feel when these kind of decisions are made more often, there would not be 
much sense in LTS desktops anymore (not on recent hardware).
And what about the fastly growing SSD server market ? Doesn't Canonical want to 
compete on that level ?

Ok, back to a solution: install kernel 2.6.33 from a ubuntu-kernel ppa at 
http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline.
Would that be a wise decision? Any experiences ?

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Josh Brown]

@letstrynl: Yes, the current plan is that Ubuntu 10.04 will never
receive TRIM support. Although unstated, I am under the impression that
the developers abstain from including new features like TRIM in LTS
releases because of possible instability. I trust that the developers
are aware of the problem this causes some users and am sure they know
what they are doing.

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[letstrynl]

So, if I understand right, there is general consensus not to add TRIM support 
to the current Long Time Support version of Ubuntu.
With all due respect, please add some wisdom to that choice, as I (and a lot of 
other users) have good reasons to run LTS on their systems.

The message Ubuntu is sending is now: if you want to use LTS versions of 
Ubuntu, you cannot be running on SSD disk.
Possible upgrade path would then be to wait for 2.6.33 to come to LTS 10.04.
Is that happening soon ? Probably not ?

Where's the common sense here ?

And what are the reasons behind this "general consensus" decision?
Some transparency would be nice, I think.

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Josh Brown]

TRIM support is not implemented in 2.6.32. TRIM support is implemented
in 2.6.33, but is not available in the Ubuntu 10.04 repositories.
Similar question asked at .

"Triaged" means that the developers know exactly what they need to do to
fix the problem. The TRIM support problem has now been fixed, but a
general consensus seems to have been reached that this feature will not
be backported. I think a separate bug should be opened for the
backporting issue if anyone believes it has not been concluded.

** Changed in: linux (Ubuntu)
   Status: Triaged => Fix Released

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[UbuntuFlo]

Josh Brown wrote on 2010-07-30:
> Any updates will be posted back here, please subscribe and be patient.
Hi, sorry to dig out this old report. I'm trying to find out whether 2.6.32 
meanwhile received the TRIM-support (→ discard) through updates of the 2.6.32 
kernel. I would be happy if someone could shed some light on this.

Josh Brown wrote on 2010-09-06: 
> tag removed as this has already been marked as triaged.
Does "triaged" means, this bug in kernel 32 is solved by receiving the 
necessarry backports of 33?
Thank you for your help!

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Josh Brown]

** Tags added: feature-request

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[Bug 571476] Re: Trim support missing from Linux kernel

[Josh Brown]

[needs-kernel-logs] tag removed as this has already been marked as
triaged.

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