Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Anzan Hoshin]

On 28 November 2011 09:12, Pako <532...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> Spock do something, there is an intruder here!
>
>
Spock! The computer! Destroy it!

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jonathan Lange]

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Bhaavan Merchant
<532...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> Sorry, I didnt want to sound accusatory or anything. But for me, the
> reason I switched to linux was the ability to customize it for me. This
> Unity is taking more and more of it away from me.

That's a non sequitur. Linux is still as customizable as ever, there's
just one particular program on Linux that you wish to customize that
isn't very customizable: Unity. No matter how elegant and simple they
make Unity, you'll always be able to swap it out for something with a
lot more knobs to tweak. It is impossible for Unity to subtract from
the customizability of Linux.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Requiem Masamune]

Just forget it. Ubuntu Design want it this way so it's the greatest
thing ever. Maybe they'll change their minds later and return it to the
right, THEN that would be it's the greatest thing ever.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Kenneth Loafman]

Pako wrote:
> @ willdye, and others
>
> "I strongly believe that default settings in general should do whatever
> users are most likely to expect -- especially new users"
>
> I remember that the main problem about the layout was "The new users
> will complain and dislike the left side buttons". There are hundreds of
> new launchpad members every day seeking a solution to their problems on
> "Ask A Question", so please, the math is simple, ask the moderators of
> launchpad to find all the issues associated with Left Layout and once we
> analyze it, it's worth to continue the discussion here.
>
>   
My biggest complaint is moving between 10.4 and other releases.  I have
to do a mental shift and that means a distraction, which means lost
work.  It's not that I don't like it, I just think the default should be
status quo, and let the user decide later.

...Ken

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

Ok, I was in the first two or five rounds of this discussion and I
have to say that at this point any further discussion is moot.

The real bug was that Mark and others did not consider the possibility
at people would hate the changed in the UI. And by hate, I mean,
running screaming in the street effigy burning, storm the Bastille,
throw the tea in the harbor, *HATE* the UI. I'm pretty sure they
expected some people to dislike it, but not hate it.

When they realized they had a real problem they fixed it. All you have
to do it to go to appearance in the preferences menu and select the
old human theme and you get all the goodness of 10.4 with a nice
livable theme. They didn't do that at first, no, they gave us set of
instructions that required you to start a command line program and
directly edit a control string. Getting the string wrong could mean
losing the buttons on your windows. It was a pain but it worked. Now,
you just have to click through a couple of menus and click on the old
theme and you are done. What they finally did is what they should have
done in the first case, they put in their new ideas for a theme and
made it easy for people like you and I to keep our old theme. It would
have been nice if they made that an option at installation time, but
they really do want to make Ubuntu look that way.

Now, let me make a comment to all the folks who left Ubuntu and are
not coming back and all the people who are threatening to leave if
this doesn't get fixed.

  Nobody at Ubuntu gives a
*SHIT* what you do.

Mark is a very smart person. He wants to make Ubuntu into a true
commpetitor with Windows. He wants to make a few billion dollars doing
it. He has already vacationed on the IIS, maybe he want to build his
own orbital resort. It would be a perfectly logical next thing if he
had the money, who knows. Maybe he just likes being the rich. I know I
like having more money than I need. A fat wallet feels a lot like...
*FREEDOM*.

So why doesn't he care if you leave? Well, are you a customer of his?
If customers leave in large numbers then a company has something to
worry about. But, if you are not a customer then why would the company
care about anything you do? Mark is trying to monetize Ubuntu. To do
that he has given it a look that appeals to a demographic who spend a
shit load of money buying digital goods. Marks last big money maker
was another company that sold a digital good. Those kinds of companies
can make a butt load of money. That demographic also is very
influenced by how "cool" something looks. (BTW, "cool" is pronounced
something like "Khol" where you kind of swallow the "kwo" sound.
Pronouncing it correctly is very important.) So now Ubuntu looks right
to that demographic. He has added the ability to purchase music and to
use all your existing mp3s with Ubuntu. (Did you notice the codexs
included in 10.4?) And, he has provided a way to store your digital
goods online, UbuntuOne is pretty nice and I expect it will become
*awsome* and the music store hidden away in RhythmBox is all most to
good to be true. Even though I am almost 60 I decided to move to 10.4
despite because of those two new features.

With the move to get Ubuntu into instant on dual boot computers
coupled with the UbuntuOne and the music store people will not have to
wait for Windows to boot to do all the most popular things people do
with laptops and netbooks. The result will be lots of money going to
Ubuntu for operating system software, for music, and maybe for some
online services as well.

The people who buy software, and music, and online services from
Ubuntu are it's customers. If you don't do any of those things then
you are not a customer. Guess what, if you are not a customer then no
company has any reason to care if you stop using the free portion of
their product. They don't care if you switch to Fedora or to Debian.

While I do not like the effect that these changes have had on me, I
completely understand what Mark is doing and I think he is going after
the right demographic. There are damned few people like me who are
ever going to be his customers. Giving me a painless way to get back
to the UI I like while still giving me the chance to use Ubuntu and
maybe to become a customer is a reasonable thing for them to do. And,
they have done it.

Bob Pendleton

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Ubuntu-Me <532...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> I think it is important to consider not that I an others have gone back
> to Karmic Ubuntu,  or that we left initially due to the User Interface
> issues pertaining to Lucid's (MacBuntu) feel, but rather the bigger
> picture.   The loss of trust in Canonical's ability to maintain
> stability over time.
>
> As a long time Ubuntu fan, it is a heartbreak to find myself running
> away from 'MacBuntu"  and once again due to stability issues.  While
> adding options to software is fine.  Forcing them upon users will only
> serve to reduce membersh

Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[AquaQuieta]

On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 13:36 +, James Lewis wrote:
> As for the previous poster suggesting that this is the reason to move
> to
> another distribution... IMO, that's ridiculous... Ubuntu has clearly
> made huge strides in the last few releases and 10.04 is no
> different...
> if you don't like the window controls on the left, move them back to
> the
> right and chill! 


I could not agree more...I use lots of different linux distros...more
all the time with the advent of Virtualization... but Ubuntu is by far
the easiest to get setup and configured. Combined with the support
options and the general polish that Ubuntu brings to the table...I
wouldn't want to change unless there was some major instability or speed
issue...and that's certainly not the case with 10.04.

 Personally, I hate the buttons on the left...its a major usability
issue for me on a desktop system...but it took all of 45 seconds to
rectify...including the google search!

Besides, the wonderful thing about linux systems is that they are so
customizable...I have to change dozens of things to suit my
preferences...regardless of the distro (I prefer vlc to totem, gvim to
gedit, I need to install dev tools... and who keeps the default
wallpaper? The list goes on and on...)

In my mind, it doesn't make much difference if the buttons are on the
left...move them to the right. 

If there is a complaint to be made, it is that Gnome doesn't provide 
good enough GUI tools for customizing and/or creating themes...but
that's case no matter what distro you are using.

Anyway, just my two cents.


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Martin Wildam]

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 15:36, James Lewis <532...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> As for the previous poster suggesting that this is the reason to move to
> another distribution... IMO, that's ridiculous... Ubuntu has clearly
> made huge strides in the last few releases and 10.04 is no different...

I do also tend to think that a few bad decisions (that mostly can be
fixed by configuration) are not enough reason to change distribution.
- Not, when the other distributions do worse (which I tend to think
focusing on my personal needs).


> if you don't like the window controls on the left, move them back to the
> right and chill!

So far, I always changed theme to one that has the buttons on the
right as I don't yet remember how to move them to the left by heart.


> IMO, we should spend more time worrying about getting BTRFS in, and
> personally I'd like to see a GUI to manage LUKS encrypted volumes &
> files... so we can steer people away from truecrypt, rather than
> spending so much effort debating such a simple change as if some buttons
> are on the left or the right.

As far as I have read (not my own experience), BTRFS is still
considered unstable and I have seen a few benchmark results where
BTRFS was faster only in a few of the use cases. From what I have
interpreted, Ext4 could be still the best choice for allround-use, but
I am not into details - there might be pretty good reasons for pushing
BTRFS - however, this is off-topic here.
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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Martin Wildam]

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 15:09, Mark Shuttleworth
<532...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> On 23/07/10 13:18, Martin Wildam wrote:
>> the Ubuntu team is causing separation and
>> not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux
>> community.
> I'd like to hear your justification for that statement. We've:
>  - built a bug tracker that explicitly lets us share bugs and fixes with
> other distributions and upstreams (and is still the only open source
> comprehensive hosting platform)
>  - consistently invited people from other distributions (debian, red
> hat, suse) to our conference, even sponsoring them
>  - supported multiple efforts to converge on open standards across
> desktop environments and distributions

Don't get me wrong please! - I was really not talking about the
infrastructure and about your community activities! The whole
launchpad is awesome very effective KISS software - Participating in
the Ubuntu community is a lot more pleasureful for me than e.g. in
Fedora/redhat world (at least my experience).

I was talking about decisions like the positioning of the buttons.
This and some other decisions have been taken without coordinating
with the community. I read a lot of Linux related blogs and listen to
a lot of Linux related podcasts. The vast majority of people is
definitely agains decisions like this - changing window control
buttons. I do consider myself as a GTD focus person and mouse miles
driven vastly increased (not just because I was first moving right and
then left only after discovering that the buttons are not there any
more. ;-) )


> You're entitled to your opinions, but simply repeating something you
> heard (potentially from a competitor) is a poor way to form or shape
> opinions.

Again, I was not talking about the general interaction with the
community or the service in general!

I was talking about a few design decisions that have been taken
without really considering the opinion of the community. And I am not
just repeating what I have heard or read elsewhere - it is my very own
experience that I only get confirmed when readin/listening on the web.
I am trying hard to spread the word for Ubuntu and my testing and
intallations done for friends, I do in the nights when family sleeps
and all other work is done. I face a lot of potential new end users
and I am working in IT business for about 20 years (mostly as software
developer), so I think I have some experience regarding usability.

And it is not, that I am not flexible: If you can give me something on
the free space at the Window border that I find awesome useful, I am
willing to adapt. That said, I am quite sure that the new feature
could also perfectly go to the left so the minimize, maximize and
close buttons could remain where they have ever been. And: Why not
waiting with that change until the new feature is availble?

With the current situation I do face either different themes design
broken because they got hit in the cold with the change in 10.04 - oh
and as we are talking about 10.04: It is definitely the worst idea
introducing such experiments with an LTS - I am far from being alone
with this opinion!

But let me come to a very positive end of my reply: I am very happy
about the fact that you are personally here - never ever would I
expect Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Steve Jobs or Larry Ellison to
personally read and respond to my feedback - so thumbs up for you!

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 23/07/10 13:18, Martin Wildam wrote:
> In reality there should be more and better cooperation in the Linux
> world between distributions. With actions like this - and now we get
> back to the topic finally - the Ubuntu team is causing separation and
> not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux
> community.

I'd like to hear your justification for that statement. We've:

 - built a bug tracker that explicitly lets us share bugs and fixes with
other distributions and upstreams (and is still the only open source
comprehensive hosting platform)
 - consistently invited people from other distributions (debian, red
hat, suse) to our conference, even sponsoring them
 - supported multiple efforts to converge on open standards across
desktop environments and distributions

You're entitled to your opinions, but simply repeating something you
heard (potentially from a competitor) is a poor way to form or shape
opinions.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Martin Wildam]

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 13:23, Ubuntu-Me <532...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> Rather then deal with Mark's mistakes directly, and I think I speak for
> many,  I can only say one thing.
>                                     (    DEBIAN !    )
My problem with debian the last time I tried it is that I need to do
much more things by hand and they have very old versions of some
programs in their repositories only. - But maybe you are using the
"testing" version and not the "stable".

I tried several other distributions also but had issues with Fedora
also for example. I like(d) Ubuntu for making most things work
out-of-the-box or with just a few clicks. I can't frickle around at
each new user with Hardware xy.

Unfortunately, even with the mobile internet sticks which were used to
work out-of-the-box for me I got more and more troubles lately.
However, I could help them being solved in Lucid during beta - but
this is off-topic here.

The point for me is: It is not so easy to find the right distribution
- either had a hardware lately that only works with Suse (no other
distri tested worked) although I avoid Suse where I can.

In reality there should be more and better cooperation in the Linux
world between distributions. With actions like this - and now we get
back to the topic finally - the Ubuntu team is causing separation and
not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux
community.
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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[habtool]

On Sun, 2010-05-02 at 12:19 +, scholli wrote:
> Avetik Topchyan wrote:
> >IMHO, that has to be configured through GUI, like other settings, and not a 
> >through a terminal command. Why make life harder >than it should be?..
> 
> "Ubuntu Tweak" can be found, quickly, in the Software-Center. Life can
> be so easy ... ;-)
> 

I don't think it is in the main repos, one needs to add the ppa:

deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/tualatrix/ppa/ubuntu lucid main

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Appier]

On 5/1/2010 11:58 PM, running_rabbit07 wrote:
> It has been made very, very, very easy to select a different theme with
> the buttons on the right.

My student users appear quite impressed with 10.04 LTS on the machines 
where it is installed.  So far, very few have changed the default 
background.  Regarding the button locations, many quickly switched to 
the "New Wave" which matches the color scheme quite nicely and has the 
buttons on the right.  As for who prefers the buttons on the right 
versus the left, there is no surprise here.  The Mac users think the 
left side buttons are just wonderful, and many of the rest quickly 
switched to a right-handed theme.

 From here this looks like it is going to be one of the best if not the 
best Ubuntu release so far; most definitely, it's the fastest.

Mark Appier

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 01/05/10 16:15, Jonas Ådahl wrote:
>> ...possible for applications to use the space on the right ...
>> 
> Is this a part of a redesign upstream,

We are upstream for the Ayatana indicators.

>  or will it be Ubuntu specific?
>   

Depends on whether it is more broadly adoped.

> Also, will it be compatible between window managers, or limited to Gnome
> applications?

It will depend on a number of other capabilities in the system, but
should not be limited to Gnome. The Ayatana work specifically aims to
improve the experience across all major desktop environments, we publish
code for both Gnome and KDE as a rule.

> Are there any other places concerning this such as mailing
> lists, general plan or similar you could point me to?
>   

The Ayatana mailing list would be a good start.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 30/04/10 18:33, Jonas Ådahl wrote:
> Mark, are you planning on making an effort in adding easy way of
> changing it, for example an option in the appearance dialog?
>   

No, quite the reverse, we will make it possible for applications to use
the space on the right of the window title bar.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

Il giorno sab, 01/05/2010 alle 00.50 +, Avetik Topchyan ha scritto:
> @soundpartner, firstly, thanks for the script!
>  
> My hope is that some bright mind would not suddenly decide 
> tomorrow to move these buttons to the bottom of the screen by default. 
> 
> Eureka! what a great innovation would that be! ;)

It would free a lot of space at the top for future innovation...

(sorry, I couldn't resist)

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Dylan McCall]

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Avetik Topchyan  wrote:
>
> @Shane Fagan: I disagree that this is not a big deal. This is about
> user-friendly vs. difficult. I don't think that your positioning buttons
> to left corner by default counts as "innovation". Not providing users an
> easy way to use it as they find fit is called making it hard on purpose.
> >From design perspective, it is a big deal. I speak as an end user.

The current situation, as has been repeated many times here, is that
button layout is specified by individual themes. So, the default
button layout, in a gconf sense, is still
menu:minimize,maximize,close. The Ambience theme (the default theme)
specifies close,maximize,minimize:. Other themes have their buttons on
the right. From my perspective, this looks pretty logical and makes
considerably more sense than having button layout detached from the
selected theme.

Do you feel this is insufficient? Were you aware of this? Perhaps
something can be done to draw attention to the change.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Douglas Ward]

I'm not sure he can know.  It seems like they will have to catch up.  I
don't agree with how it was done but unfortunately it's done.  All of the
apps I use look ok now that the buttons are back on the right and in the old
order.

On Apr 30, 2010 6:46 PM, "Pyramid Technologies"  wrote:

Yes.. you CAN gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout
--type string "menu:minimize,maximize,close" to fix the issue, however,
what about all of the themes (not the native ones in Ubuntu 10.04LTS)
and various 3rd party applications? Is Mark/Canonical sure that the
current button organization, orde, position, does not break UI on any
themes and applications not included in 10.04LTS?


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Douglas Ward]

It is available.  I just did it and it works great.  All is back to
normal.

On Apr 30, 2010 5:21 PM, "Avetik Topchyan"  wrote:

Mark, are you confirming that the easy switch for these buttons will be
available on 10.4?


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

My motivation is straightforward: to make Ubuntu the most delightful
desktop I possibly can. As, I'm sure is yours. So, we're on the same
side, and I appreciate your thoughts and insights.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Alexander Pas  wrote:
> Dear Mark Shuttleworth, and everyone else thinking it was a good change
> to place those buttons on the left side of the window.
>
> Please go read a book on Interaction Design, for example: About Face 3,
> ISBN 9780470084113
>
> Now, After you have read that book, explain to me, why you want to have
> the Ejector Seat Button placed right above the Cockpit Lights Switch.

It has been made very clear by Shuttleworth and others at Ubuntu that
they have not read any such book and are not interested in reading it
and they are not willing to listen to people who have read it. At
least not right now.

Shuttleworth made his billions by creating a company that sold a
highly technical information product, a security certificate, to
highly technical customers for a highly technical purpose. But, he
sold it at a better price and under more reasonable terms than the
competition. That created a lot of value and even though he was not
able to actually compete with the high priced vendors he did create a
business that he could sell to a high priced vendor. Now, he seems to
think that that success qualifies him to create a product for use by
non-technical customers for a non-technical purpose. It does not. But,
the buttons are only the most visible part of his play in 10.4.

The key thing to note about 10.4 is the addition of the music store.
Which is again a business based on selling an information product at a
better price and under better terms than the competition. The music
store is an attempt to monetize Ubuntu in a huge way. It is designed
to both generate revenue and to create a demand for Ubuntu. By
limiting access to the music store to Ubuntu 10.4 and above he is also
making Ubuntu "sticky" for users. the music store is extremely
compelling.

The me-menu is another interesting play. Once you get on Ubuntu, the
me-menu is designed to make Ubuntu "sticky" for the user by making
Ubuntu the primary way you access you social media. If it catches on
it will place Ubuntu in position to monetize access to social media.
It will also place Ubuntu in a position to provide value added
services through the social media sites that drive more users to
Ubuntu.

It is my considered opinion that Shuttleworth is planning yet another
play with the intention of monetizing Ubuntu while at the same time
making it even more sticky. If in the short run he loses 10%, or even
50%, of the current users he does not care. Losing users does not cost
him any money. If he can make $1/year from the users that stay Ubuntu
will be generating 6 to 12 million dollars a year in revenue and he
will have accomplished his goal.

My guess is that Shuttleworth is positioning Ubuntu as a one stop
solution for companies that want to build the next generation of
networked social and entertainment systems. Whether placed in a net
book or a phone a software platform that includes a nice way to get
music and other media as well as a nice way to access all your social
connections and communication the Ubuntu that I see emerging is a
killer application. That become especially true if it is prices low
enough that these devices can be sold across the entire world and not
just in North America and Europe.

Shuttleworth has no reason to care if the metaphorical ejector seat
button is next to the metaphorical  cabin light switch so long as
Ubuntu generates revenue.  Even if someone hits the wrong button at
least no one will actually be ejected. Remember he can move them back
any time he wants to. On the other hand my laptop goes to the black
screen (which I think I will start calling the Shuttleworth screen)
every twenty minutes or so. Firefox doesn't work correctly. blah blah
blah... nothing has been done about any of the bug reports I have
filed since alpha 3 was released... If this keeps up Ubuntu could lose
enough users to actually matter to Shuttleworth.

No, I am not saying that I disagree with you. I am saying that
Shuttleworth has a plan to make money off of Ubuntu and even if his
actions cost him 50% of existing users that does not matter if it
actually makes Ubuntu cash flow positive. So, don't expect Ubuntu to
see the light any time soon. After it is making money then they will
have to worry about making changes that costs them customers.
Customers have a monetary value. Users do not. That is the world view
that is driving the current changes in Ubuntu.

I don't like it. I think that Shuttleworth is very misguided in not
putting the buttons back. It would make a lot of people very happy. It
would give the illusion that he actually cares what we think. It would
makes us all happy and give us a warm fuzzy feeling and we would stick
around and generate  revenue for Ubuntu. Pissed of users actually have
a negative value because they generate negative advertising while not
providing revenue. Pissed off users also do not provide free testing
and free technical consultation. I don't think he understands that

Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Martin Wildam]

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 09:39, Wildam Martin  wrote:
> I like the light new theme more than older themes. So it is
> either not a complete thumbs down.

But anyway, although I like the new theme, from usability Clearlooks
is better. And this is an issue often designers have: They design for
cool look and not for usability.
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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Martin Wildam]

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 08:19, Jesper  wrote:
> "Ubuntu does it again". Screwing over its user-base over and over. And for a 
> LTS you get the
> "Bad Choices Award".

There is a saying: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience
comes from bad judgement."
So there is hope that they learn from it. ;-)

I can't see so many major issues with 10.4 (I participated with
testing - although with focus on some particular elements). Anyway my
judgement here is: Thumbs up for the developers, Thumbs down for the
design team. But although I don't like the dark theme (dark themes in
general I find worse for usability) and don't like the button
position, I like the light new theme more than older themes. So it is
either not a complete thumbs down.
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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

Il giorno dom, 25/04/2010 alle 14.04 +, scholli ha scritto:
> I did updates since Beta1 and I don't have this feature what is shown in
> the attached screenshot. But now I see that it exists and probably I
> have to do a fresh install with the final release for get it working
> finally. But seeing that, everything should be fine now, for everybody!?

Probably everybody except that majority perfectly described in comment
735.

But then, you can see this bug is closed, so it is "fine now" by
definition.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Requiem Masamune]

Only because the majority who say no has already expressed their view
and is tired of being ignored.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:45 +, "scholli"  wrote:
> I say "yes"... and I see that always more and more peoples are agreed
> with left.
> 
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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

Because the bdfl pays the bills ;)

What mark says goes no matter what. Every single person in the community
could say no and if he says yes it happens.

I have resigned myself to memorizing the gconf command Everyone that
thinks they should stay on the right should do similar.


-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 23, 2010 6:50 PM, Tory  wrote: 

why not leave the buttons where they were and put the "new" stuff that

Mark speaks of on the left instead!


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Danimoth  wrote:
> Using the latest beta(beta 2 and all updates i find installed on sight),
> the order of the buttons is maximize, minimize, close. I this the order
> its supposed to be?

Check http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/window-buttons-shift-order-
again.html

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:42 PM, running_rabbit07
 wrote:
> Bob, your only reason for rejecting ubuntu's buttons is stubbornness.

You just relabeled my fact based objections as a form of moral failure
so that you could reject them without having to even consider that my
reasons may be valid. You are displaying a form of mental sloppiness
that borders on bigotry. In fact, it is the kind of mental sloppiness
that enables bigotry.

I do not expect you to under accept what I just said. But, please
consider that you are not me.

> The fact that your grand mother was using a computer shows she is

My last maternal grandmother died in the '60. My paternal grandmother
died in the '50s. I was writing about my mother in law. I suppose your
grandmother is in the same age range as my mother in law so you
skipped right over what I actually wrote and interpreted it in your
own frame of reference. It is import to learn to accept what is on the
page even when it contradicts what is in you mind.

Let's see, if your grandmother is the same age as my mother-in-law
then you are about the same age as my son. That means I've been using
X11 on some version of Unix longer than you have been alive. Which
tells me that you can not understand what I am saying because you have
not lived long enough to have the experience of living this long.

It's a funny thing. You can not actually understand an experience
without experiencing it. So, I'll lighten up on you a bit.

> capable of change being that most likely when she was born there were no
> TVs much less computers. How many people were really using desktop
> computers in the 70s?

Many millions if you go by the number of Apple IIs sold starting in
1977. Or the number of CP/M based computers sold starting around 1974.
But, I was talking about when I started using X11 which was in the
middle 1980s.

I did have the fun of using a text based windowing system written in
Lisp on a Dec 20. It displayed on a glass terminal. I think I was
using a DEC VT100. And, of course, I did a ton of applications in the
first version of TurboPascal which also use a text based windowing
system. But, that is not what I was talking about. Wrong decade and
wrong technology. I was talking about X11 on Unix on a 68000 based Sun
workstation and X11 on System5 Unix on several Mips based workstations
developed and sold by Evans & Sutherland and later on 64 bit Sparc
developed by (I wish I was kidding with this name) HaL computer
systems.


> Lets be real here. If you guys are really this
> stubborn how did you manage to actually leave Windows?

Indeed. Interesting question. Why do you think I every left windows?
Let's see. I started working with X11 after the r3 release. (I was our
companies representative to the X consortium and the guy responsible
for getting it running on our hardware.) X11R3 was released in
February '86. Windows 1 was released at the end of '85 and Windows 2
was released at the end '87. No body really used Windows until 3.0
came out in 1990 and no one really wanted to use it until 3.1 "windows
for work groups" came out in 1992. The first version of Windows that
could even be compared to X11 on Unix was Window '95 that came out in
1995. I first started using Windows in '94.

By the time I started using Windows I had been using X11 on Unix for 8
or 9 years.

I never moved away from Windows. I was forced to use Windows for
economic reasons and I still use it for the same reason.

Again, you are looking at things from your own frame of reference.
Windows did not exist in my world when I started using GUI based
computer systems. Windows barely existed at all.

>
> With every release there are whiners that scream they are leaving
> because the sky isn't blue enough in the new desktop background. I would
> think someone who claims to be a system admin for a company using ubuntu
> as their system would know how to make the small GUI change necessary to
> put the buttons back on the left for his whole company at install time.

I never claimed to be a system admin. I have never been a system
admin. I was talking about, and used examples based on, my home
network which consists of 8 to 10 PCs and a printer. The minor change
you mention has to be made for every user on every computer. That
means having to change the same damn thing 40 or 50 times. (I often
have one or more of my adult children and/or various friends and
people I meet who are in need of a place to stay living with me.)

Managing my home network is much like being a sys admin at a small
company. But, I am not and never have been a sys admin. I am a
teacher. I have been a software developer, a software development
manager, and a corporate technology analyst. But, not a sys admin.


>
> If you look at the subscribe list to the above right, you will see that
> Mark is no longer following this thread, so why are you arguing as if
> you think he will change his mind?

Why do you think I give a shit what Mark thinks? Right now I'm trying
to brea

Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Requiem Masamune]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:51 +, "Steven"  wrote:
> Why not just choose one of the following two solutions:
Because it has been stated that ubuntu is trying to be *less*
configurable (Linus might have been right all along)

And because, honestly, I think the move to patch button order support
into metacity was so technically unnecessary, that I'm guessing the move
was not technical at all. I think it might be intended to move the
responsibility to theme makers to pressure them to make their themes
more fit for left alignment, or at least make them develop two versions
of each theme, as it is kinda obvious that mere relocating of buttons
breaks some theme designs.

Or maybe the dev team reasoned that the set of users who want the
buttons in the right overlaps significantly with the set of users who
use themes other than the default.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Steven]

Why not just choose one of the following two solutions:

1) Add a radio button in gnome-appearance-properties (ad said by
scholli) with the following options:
Window button placement:
- use theme default
- always on the left
- always on the right

I one of the latter two options is chosen then the theme default will
be overridden by the user's choice.

2) Ship two other themes, ambiance-right and radiance-right whose only
difference is the button placement.
Only a single text file (index.theme) needs to be added.


That will keep everybody happy.

(I know it is possible to customize a theme but that solution might
not be obvious to new users, as simply choosing a theme).

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

+1 to having it as an optional theme!

Definitely the wrong thing to "experiment with" without innovation at
hand already. ESPECIALLY ON AN LTS


-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 13, 2010 12:38 AM, Martin Wildam  wrote: 

Well, if the community is so blindly ignored, then I should maybe switch

distribution...


I have been a convinced Ubuntu-User but if things develop that way...


I think the community is bringing the most new users. It is not the

Windows users that find Ubuntu and then really use it. Everywhere I

look, there are only a very few leader types that find things themselves

- most use what others already successfully use. And Linux is a lot

spread by word of mouth. New users want other users near to them who

they can ask for help if needed. The buttons-to-the-left-change is

definitely making the transition for a Windows user more difficult.


I will not go to teach new users about gconf - they should be able to

focus on their work. I myself used that the last time about 5 years ago.

I remember it so annoying on Windows that after a fresh installation

quite every default setting in the Explorer need to be changed to make

it useful. Do we want Ubuntu get the same annoyance-factor?


If you include new themes with the distribution that have the buttons on

the left - well do it. But don't set such a theme as default.


@Mark: I didn't notice at any place so far a real reason for the buttons

on the left. "Encouraging innovation" is good, but there should be

reason. For such experimental major changes the very best would be to

first have just an optional additional theme that makes use of this. And

there are really more important changes in UI design needed, just one

that comes to my mind immediately: A confirmation dialog when the user

presses the delete key in Nautilus. I am not sure myself sometimes, if I

accidently hit delete when scrolling to the end and then have to examine

recycle bin if I have deleted something accidently or not. (I know this

is off-topic here, but just one of plenty other examples being more

important for a good user experience than moving buttons to the left

without any reason). And keep in mind that productivity, reliability and

functionality is more important than design. For most computer users the

computer is not their main focus - they use it but want to focus on

their main business or hobby. "New innovative ideas" from my

understanding are only such if they solve a problem or bring new

possibilities. Can't see that for this button-issue - the opposite is

more true.


@Bernhard: Thanks for filing this - I think it is the best solution only

having a new optional theme using this style.


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

For completeness I filed a bug against gnome-themes-ubuntu regarding
the dust buttons still on the left: bug 561756

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

James, I think you may need to unset the gconf key. If you set a gconf
key as a user, then that setting stays in place until you change it.
When we update a package, we only update the system-default settings.
User settings don't get touched, generally. So, if you played with the
gconf setting previously, you will retain what you set until you *unset*
that key.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[nomnex]

On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 22:51 +, Bernhard wrote:
> @nomnex: I couldn't find a bug for it. That's why I asked if I should
> file it against gnome-themes-ubuntu.

I have read two reviews about the latest changes in 10.04 b2. both were
mentioning the Dust theme "bug" to be fixed for the official release. I
would assume the gnome-themes-ubuntu team are already aware of the
issue. Maybe others could give their opinion?

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

@nomnex: I couldn't find a bug for it. That's why I asked if I should
file it against gnome-themes-ubuntu.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[nomnex]

On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 14:50 +, Bernhard wrote:
> There's currently two more bugs with this whole affair:
> 1) the classical dust theme still has buttons on the left. This looks 
> unintended and some people before confirmed that it is unintended.

This is a temporary bug, it only affects Dust. it should be fixed on the
beta3 or the official release (=>buttons on the right).

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

@James: this could be because you have manually changed the gconf
settings. Either set them back to default or do a fresh install of
lucid. You should be able to change themes and move buttons to the
right. Since you are running a beta release, you cannot expect
everything to work perfectly.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Dylan McCall]

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 2:48 PM, James P. Carter
 wrote:
> FYI, As of 04/11/2010 the following is also NOT true. I have switched
> back and forth from various themes... all buttons are on the left...
> always!

Hi James,

Please file a separate bug report for this issue; it shouldn't happen.

However, I should also mention I can't reproduce it here. Keep in mind
that button position is set in index.theme for each specific theme,
which is the file that says "this window manager theme + this gtk
theme + this colour scheme is a theme by this name." (Essentially
responsible for the individual theme choices that get icons and names
in Appearance Preferences). If you use the Customize option on a
theme, it creates a brand new index.theme file for a brand new theme
and it doesn't record a specific button layout for that.

Okay, my explanation wasn't very good, but these steps should give you
a nice picture:
 * Select Human theme.
 * Note window buttons on right (unless something weird has happened,
justifying a separate bug report).
 * Click Customize and go to the Window Border tab. Choose any other
window border, for example Ambience.
 * Note that window buttons do not change position.
 * Note that your theme, under Appearance Preferences›Theme is called
"Custom" :)

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

You've got to love the inconsistencies in the ubuntu development team at
the moment.

At one end (a search engine) "oh we can't change to yahoo! no one will
know how to use the new search engine and will all get l...@!?" and at
the other end (the buttons), it's "we'll change them no matter what
people want because innovation is good and in another 7 months they'll
get to see some of that innovation."

Now tell me how this is a consistent development strategy for a LTS
release?

SOURCE: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-April/030589.html

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 08/04/10 17:54, running_rabbit07 wrote:
> Thank you for sharing this amazing product and hopefully this new
> innovation your team is working on will push us towards fixing bug #1.
>   
You're very welcome, and thanks for your participation and consideration.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 07/04/10 23:34, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> Is there anyway we can have Pyramid Technologies removed from commenting
> on this entry (or even Launchpad entirely)?
>   

I've written to Pyramid and asked him to shift his line of discussion to
the Forums, where it would be more appropriate, and to respect the Code
of Conduct.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 07/04/10 21:52, Pyramid Technologies wrote:
> Yet another voice against this move
>
> http://www.zdnet.com.au/new-ubuntu-look-too-destructive-339302224.htm
>   

The specific issue he raises there looks to me to be a bug, in that the
entire corner area is being used as a click target for the corner
button, as opposed to just the area of the button itself. I've reported
that separately as Bug #558327

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 07/04/10 19:42, running_rabbit07 wrote:
> Bob, your only reason for rejecting ubuntu's buttons is stubbornness.
>   

This is a straight ad hominem attack, and is completely unacceptable
under our Code of Conduct.

Bob, my apologies for this. Ronnie, please refrain from framing your
arguments as an attack on someone else.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Pako  wrote:
> @Bob "Our reasons are real and valid"  What reason?

Ok, I recognize a troll when I see one. Very funny. Ha Ha.


>
> --
> [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of a duplicate bug.
>
> Status in “light-themes” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix
> Status in “metacity” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>
> Bug description:
> === Master Bug ===
> (As per the design team's request)
> All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
> All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
> one.
>
> === Desire ===
> "Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
> re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
> (menu - title - minimize, maximize close)."
>
>  Workaround 
> 1. Only new themes, such as Ambiance and Radiance will have buttons on the 
> left by default. You can continue using old themes, such as Human, in Lucid 
> and those themes will continue to have buttons on the right side (according 
> to http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/577 ). It is even 
> possible to switch to Human theme and then 'Customize' it to use all the 
> elements from Radiance theme, but the button layout will stay on the right.
>
> 2. To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
> $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
> "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
>
>  Responses 
> Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17
> http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 ("Those pesky buttons")
> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
> interview starting at 39:10)
>
> Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 
> onwards
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
> close-min-max ordering)
>
> Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24
> http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24)
>
> === Code of Conduct ===
> To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
> of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscribe
>


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

Your post is nonsense. Nothing I said had anything to do with
"beauty". I was talking about how poor selections of colors can induce
eye strain and make it difficult to use a UI.

I am talking about well established principles based on decades of
experimentation and on the physiology eye and the effects of aging on
the eye.

Purple is a horrible background color because it combines both read
and blue. Staring at purple depletes two of the three sets of color
receptors in the eye. That will cause everything else around you to
appear to be depleted of red and blue. The color sensors are the low
resolution part of the eye. They intensity network that sees shades of
gray is the high resolution part of the eye. If you want people to be
able to read and see details you have to use colors that are strong
divided in intensity, not by color shade.

This is nothing new. It is human factors 101. It is taught to Chefs in
culinary schools so they now enough to make signs and menus that are
usable by their customers.

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Pako  wrote:
> No one, including rocket scientist can't tell which colour is the most
> beautiful one. There is no most beautiful colour in the world.
>
> --
> [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of a duplicate bug.
>
> Status in “light-themes” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix
> Status in “metacity” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>
> Bug description:
> === Master Bug ===
> (As per the design team's request
> All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
> All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
> one.
>
> === Desire ===
> "Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
> re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
> (menu - title - minimize, maximize close)."
>
>  Workaround 
> 1. Only new themes, such as Ambiance and Radiance will have buttons on the 
> left by default. You can continue using old themes, such as Human, in Lucid 
> and those themes will continue to have buttons on the right side (according 
> to http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/577 ). It is even 
> possible to switch to Human theme and then 'Customize' it to use all the 
> elements from Radiance theme, but the button layout will stay on the right.
>
> 2. To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
> $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
> "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
>
>  Responses 
> Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17
> http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 ("Those pesky buttons")
> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
> interview starting at 39:10)
>
> Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 
> onwards
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
> close-min-max ordering)
>
> Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24
> http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24)
>
> === Code of Conduct ===
> To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
> of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscribe
>


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+ email: b...@pendleton.com
+ web: www.TheGrumpyProgrammer.com

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:38 PM, scholli  wrote:
> mouth (sorry)
>
> @Bob
>
> Yes with Windows... My first Computer was an Amiga and it was different.
> It was bad? Nop! You will wonder the quick you can change customs. ,)

You clearly have no understanding of what we have been talking about.
Step back and try to understand why those of us who are objecting to
this change are objecting to it.

Our reasons are real and valid.

Bob Pendleton


>
> --
> [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of a duplicate bug.
>
> Status in “light-themes” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix
> Status in “metacity” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>
> Bug description:
> === Master Bug ===
> (As per the design team's request)
> All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
> All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
> one.
>
> === Desire ===
> "Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
> re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
> (menu - title - minimize, maximize close)."
>
>  Workaround 
> 1. Only new themes, such as Ambiance and Radiance will have buttons on the 
> left by default. You can continue using old themes, such as Human, in Lucid 
> and those themes will continue to have buttons on the right side (according 
> to http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/577 ). It is even 
> possible to switch to Human theme and then 'Customize' it to use all the 
> elements from Radiance theme, but the button layout will stay on the right.
>
> 2. To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
> $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
> "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
>
>  Responses 
> Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17
> http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 ("Those pesky buttons")
> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
> interview starting at 39:10)
>
> Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 
> onwards
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503
> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
> close-min-max ordering)
>
> Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24
> http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24)
>
> === Code of Conduct ===
> To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
> of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscribe
>


-- 
+---
+ Bob Pendleton: writer and programmer
+ email: b...@pendleton.com
+ web: www.TheGrumpyProgrammer.com

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

Think about how your grandma would react if she had been using
computers since 1971 and an X11 based GUI with the window buttons in
the upper right corner since 1986. How would she feel if she did an
update, rebooted, and found that the buttons were not where she
expected them to be. And, she also found that the color scheme had
been changed to something hurt her eyes to look at it?

That is the situation I'm in. Believe it or not there are a lot of
people out here who have been using computers and GUIs for a long
time. We have developed reflexes, muscle memory, that lets us know how
to use the GUI without even thinking about it. We have eyes that
require bifocal lenses. It takes a while for our eyes to adjust to new
light levels. Something the new background requires us to do every
time we look at a different part of the screen. We might not see
differences in gray levels as well as we did 40 years ago, which makes
reading gray text on what ever that color is in the Lucid theme a
challenge.

My wife saw the default desktop on a machine I had just installed. Her
reaction, was "You're not going to do that to my machine." Not a
question, a statement. Is she "non-technical"? Sure, if you count
rocket science as non-technical. She is an ME. She can put her stamp
to the plans for a new building and make it legal to build the
building. And, yes, she spent much of her career designing rocket
motors and systems. Computer programmers are among the least technical
of all the technical fields.

Your attitude toward adults is really disgusting to me.

Bob Pendleton


On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 5:41 AM, Imre Gergely  wrote:
> @Pietro Battiston: I don't think you can be 100% sure that Debian (or
> any other distro) won't do something in the future you will dislike...
>
> Tech people think that non-techies (your grandmother) will ZOMG what
> happened to the buttons. Just try to explain that she has to click on
> the left now to close the windows and not on the right, and she'll get
> it in notime and forget about it. I have non-tech parents, too, with
> Ubuntu installed at home, and grandparents who learned how to use a
> mobile (at their age).
>
> It's just us who are "too aware" about these things (us, who read these
> bugreports and comment way too much on them). Your grandma will probably
> think, "ummm there's no button here... but there! on the other side,
> that looks the same, let's click it and see what happens. Tadda!" She
> won't care, they've changed it, ok, she'll get used to it. If she can
> use a computer, she will figure it out.
>
> It's still easier than Ctrl+W, Ctrl+Q, Alt+F4 or File/Quit ;)
>
> --
> [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of a duplicate bug.
>
> Status in “light-themes” package in Ubuntu: Triaged
> Status in “metacity” package in Ubuntu: Confirmed
>
> Bug description:
> *** As per the design team's request***
> All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
> All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
> one.
> -
>
> Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
> re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
> (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
>
>  Workaround 
> To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
> $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
> "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
>
> --OR--
>
> Use this PPA: https://launchpad.net/~stownsend42/+archive/light-themes
> This option will also fix the graphical appearance of the buttons.
>
>  Overview 
> Canonical design team leader - "Those pesky buttons" - 2010-03-10
> http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281
> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
> interview starting at 39:10)
>
> Mark Shuttleworth's reply (on this bug report) - 2010-03-15
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110
>  + ~10 following replies
>
> ===
> To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
> of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscribe
>


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+ email: b...@pendleton.com
+ web: www.TheGrumpyProgrammer.com

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Requiem Masamune]

I think Mark first rationale for the change was actually right and
overriding. He needs to clear the right corner to put something there
and he needs to do it 6 months in advance.

I can already sort of guess what it will be. Forget Esfera, it will be
some sort of live facebook chat/twitter feed/location broadcaster/ad
displayer, possibly.

The functionality is there, the calendar panel applet can stay open on
top of the windows already. And it really wouldn't work any other way,
the bottom corners are used by applications with either controls or the
status bar, and the top left side has the menus and the most used
toolbar buttons as well as the gnome menu bar.

So the best option if you want to put an always on top applet is to move
everything to the left, buttons AND title, to make room for it. It is in
fact such an obvious move that it makes sense to piss off almost
everybody to pull it off.

BUT

If I'm right, this is bad news already. Good functionality doesn't need
a preemptive strike 6 months ahead of time just to "soften" the targets,
bad functionality does.

It could be something so bad that people* will complain about it by
itself, let alone the title bar scramble, so Mark is attempting to
separate the criticisms, reordering the title bar now so that the future
complains would be limited to the new gimmick alone.

And of course there is the psychological trick of asking for a lot of
money before asking for less money as to make the second request seem
more reasonable.

So Mark was sincere the first time all along, he needs to make room for
functionality that's so compelling, it has to be introduced gradually.

* When I say people I mean the bleeding-edge, open to change,
ubuntu-loyal beta testing community that didn't like this change.

(And yes I'm still here, for several reason I've not been able to
unsubscribe as I meant to)

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[u-foka]

That would be great, if that won't break the consistence... but it does!
Sadly all non native gtk application have problems with globalmenu... wx
apps have an empty menu bar on their window while the actual menu moved
to the panel, others like oo & firefox simply doesn't care about
globalmenu, because they don't use any gtk widgets (only drawing
functions), and there are other problems, like freezes with acroread.

So that can't happen to globalmenu be default...

On 04/06/2010 04:43 PM, Alvin wrote:
> Yes! That is a great idea, Michael!
>
> Gnome global menu applet ( http://code.google.com/p/gnome2-globalmenu/ )
> is a very good way of avoiding the problem of clicking Close when
> intending to open the File menu.
>
> I hope this can be made the default for the new button-paradigm-shifted
> themes.
>
> That would really clean up the windows and make even more room for novel
> interface experiments if that is what Canonical wants.
>
> I say, if Ubuntu is really going to change in the direction of Apple-
> like UI instead of Microsoft-like UI I welcome that wholeheartedly.
>
> What I do not like (or understand) is taking some bits from Apple
> (buttons) and some from Microsoft (menu) but without having any real
> reason behind it other than simply being different.
>
> Either Canonical needs to do real (and I mean REAL) user experience
> testing months before introducing dramatic UI changes. OR, they need to
> trust what other companies/organizations do and not be queasy about
> looking like an imitation.
>
> If Canonical thinks Apple has the best UI ideas, then grab those ideas, all 
> of them, all at the same time!
> :-)
>
>

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

Brainstorm is just a technicality. The point is that

- many users thought of Ubuntu's organization as a "democracy without
burocracy": when you have a nice mission ("Linux for human beings"), a
nice codebase to start from (Debian), a nice group of people and a nice
capital to start, who cares about the exact governing process?! There
are several great examples of BDFL in Open Source.

- instead the difference between Ubuntu and a(n ideal) democracy is not
merely _technical_: they just _don't share the same goals and
principles_ - in particular, Ubuntu has no commitment to do what is best
for the community.

- among the things that they do not share, is the way to communicate.
That's why a very smart marketing campaign, with a nice and friendful
logo, a name with deep meaning, a slogan that talks of humanity... all
that may mislead people into having excessive expectations.

 And that's partly stupid, because in 2010 we should all know what
marketing is. Probably a partial excuse is that in the Open Source world
there is less abitude to those techniques. 

But please don't point at _technical particulars_ of how Ubuntu is not a
democracy, I think it's not the point. It just _is not_ a democracy,
Mark himself stated it clearly, and we have no right to recriminate.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

@pyramid: In current lucid with all updates, open "Appearance" and
choose a classical theme (e.g. human or dust). Then it should move the
buttons to the right. If not, please comment on bug 533758.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

> That illustrates my point clearly on why this whole left-right thing
> should be theme-driven. Thanks :D

This has been implemented for a while now. Are you actually using lucid
at all?

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

Yann, there was a post about this yesterday, check above. Dust buttons
are supposed to go back to right.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[nomnex]

On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 23:14 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> I agree that having the "close" button inset was visually more
> interesting. But in the end, the view that carried the day was that
> having the close button in the place where it moves around the least
> (the corner) was most valuable. The rest followed from there.
> 
> Mark

I was a partisan of the "no change" along the thread (my English is
perfectible, e.g. some possible confusion between layout and l/r side of
the buttons in my previous posts).

Since the change is going to happen anyway, I would rather now lean
toward a *radical* change, as formally proposed by the UI team & Mark
(the very same I did not like in the current 10.04 beta1)

The way Mark is closing the bug is reasonable. he can make space on the
right without too much offending people's habits. The downside is the
loss of originality of the former (or current) theme.

This message might sound contradictory, but I was ready to "bit the
bullet" using the default theme for 6 months over. To see for myself if,
at last, I would not finally come to like the unusual buttons position?

In a way, Mark's final answer removes the emotional side I had for this
bug. It was nice reading so much feedback though (aside from the noise
of "Pako" and "Pyramid" along the thread)
nomnex

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

BUT... Apple's close button doesn't "close an application"


-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 1, 2010 2:07 PM, Jonathan Carter  wrote: 

@Dag (#569)


Well, as Mark pointed out before, we really need more data before any

real solid good choices can be made.


Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether buttons should be ordered

according to whether they are most desctructive, or most used.

Personally, I spend more clicks on closing windows than minimizing and

maximizing or restoring them. I'm willing to bet that if if do a study,

you'll find that:


a. Most people also close windows more than any of the other window
functions on the title bar

b. Most users would prefer having the most used actions from LTR if they
are a LTR user


Additionally, if a user clicks on the close button accidentally, most

software will confirm the closing of the window if it's a potentially

destructive close. If not, it's a bug in that software.


I think this is one of those cases where Apple got it right, and I'm

glad that Canonical decided to make this change before release.


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Appier]

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:18:05 -0400, Jeremy Bicha 
wrote:

> Aigars, the left-side change was not meant to affect the other themes,
> that was a bug which has since been fixed. You can keep using your
> right-side Human theme for Lucid.

Let me get this clear, the "move all the buttons to the left in all of the  
themes" was a different bug all along? I guess I missed that one... My  
principal objection all along was the "forced" move to the left--not a  
good idea.  However, if the right-hand themes are still available without  
work-arounds, this becomes even easier to fix for our less "tech savvy"  
users.  Just set to the old "Human" theme.  I like the option to have the  
left-handed themes, just not to have people I support be forced to use  
them or have to use the gconf-editor to make the other themes look OK.

Mark, I applaud the order for the left-handed buttons that you chose.  It  
makes support for the new configuration easier

Thank you for all you do for the community!

Mark Appier

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 01/04/10 22:20, Dag Odenhall wrote:
> @Jonathan You make a good argument. I eagerly await how it will look in
> action, as I thought the maximize,minimize,close setup looked quite
> nice. In my mind, close,minimize,maximize looks less nice, but I could
> be wrong.
>   

I agree that having the "close" button inset was visually more
interesting. But in the end, the view that carried the day was that
having the close button in the place where it moves around the least
(the corner) was most valuable. The rest followed from there.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Tom Jaeger]

Here's an idea:  Why not make the upper right hand corner of each window
an 'activity corner' in gnome 3?

On 04/01/2010 02:12 PM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the
> right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are
> already springing up in the community. We welcome participation on the
> Ayatana list, where those can play out. This will be a fruitful topic
> for the design track at UDS in Brussels in May.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Colin D Bennett]

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:40:25 -
Dag Odenhall  wrote:

>  - the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise
> 
> Putting the most destructive action first. Wasn't the whole point to
> make it more sane for LTR reading?

Close may be ‘destructive’, but I would also say it is the most
frequently-used action.  I click the close button on nearly
every window I open, but I don't minimize or maximize every window.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

Gay


-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 1, 2010 11:27 AM, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote: 

Thank you to everybody who has participated in this discussion.


The final decision on window controls for 10.04 LTS is as follows:


 - the window controls will remain on the left, however

 - the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise


The decision is based on the view that putting the close button in the

corner will be most familiar to many users, even if the particular

choice of corner is not.


For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a comment dependent on the date

:-)


Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the

right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are

already springing up in the community. We welcome participation on the

Ayatana list, where those can play out. This will be a fruitful topic

for the design track at UDS in Brussels in May.


This bug is now marked wontfix. Please focus ongoing participation on

the opportunities for innovation that this opens up. The decision as to

the window controls location and order itself is now final, and as they

say in the old newspapers, no further correspondence will be entered

into.


** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)

   Status: Triaged => Won't Fix


** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)

 Assignee: (unassigned) => Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)


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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Anzan Hoshin]

Hi Mark,

Here's a thought: If the buttons are being moved and there is work going on
with notifications then what if the tootips that show for the buttons
included standard keybindings such as CTL+W?

It might help people to learn them and then not care where the buttons
are.

Anzan

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Please, Pako, and Pyramid, stop bickering in this bug. That is not
appropriate, nor constructive. You have different opinions, please leave
it at that.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Jef, it is certainly not the case that any OEM has directed these
changes. We do direct our original engineering to things that make
Ubuntu better for OEM customers, but we have complete independence as to
which way to lead Ubuntu. A lot of the OEM feedback is very valuable though.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 31/03/10 19:07, Jefspa Leta wrote:
> Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It
> would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes
> were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners
> over the concerns of non-paying customers.
>   

That is quite definitely not the case.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

This is not a forum, guys. I humbly suggest opening a thread on Ubuntu
forums and stop spamming here.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[James Schriver]

On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 20:23 +, scholli wrote:
> @ last inscribers:
> 
> right click on screen - click on "change appearance and background" -
> choose the theme-tab - choose a theme like "Dust" ... have fun with
> right.
> 
> 
> Ambiance and Radiance have a unique good look with left. I am associating 
> Ubuntu with left - max,min,close now. Would be sad to lose this WIN ...
> Make perhaps a right-buttons version of the light-themes (no default) and 
> everybody will be happy. Peoples can accustom for 10.10, 11.04, ... ,)
> 

@scholli

There is now an option in gnome-appearance-properties to "Reverse The
Button Layout" is specified by the theme.  Simply clicking on that will
send the maximize, minimize, and close icons to the right.  The button
layouts are now specified in the index theme.  The new themes will work
flawlessly with custom layouts (trough corruption) as soon as the
metacity patch lands and compiz is rebuilt.  Dust was just updated to
support this as well along with many other nice tweaks. 

Regards,

dashua

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Anzan Hoshin]

On 30 March 2010 11:57, Pyramid Technologies  wrote:

> Secret Future Ubuntu User Interface Plans Revealed!
> http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/44121
>
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>


Actually, this is interesting:

Workflow and Upload: two new button concepts for Lucid
http://www.design-by-izo.com/2010/03/29/workflow-and-upload-two-new-button-concepts-for-lucid/comment-page-1/#comment-307

Sincerely etc,
Anzan

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Folks, this bug is looking more like a mailing list every day. Can I
suggest that we stop just poking at one another here. There are
differing points of view, and insulting one another doesn't add to our
ability to settle this matter. So, I'd suggest that we only add comments
to this bug if they are adding data that could guide a decision. Neither
"Me too" nor "you nutcase" posts get us any further, and will just lead
to key people unsubscribing from the report.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

The theme-dependent buttons are _bad news_, for two reasons:

1) they make clear that the "experiment" is much more than an experiment

2) the reason for the switch was to put something new (and certainly
great - though unfortunately secret, at the moment) on the right side:
it means that whatever direction Ubuntu is going, custom theme users
will be left out.

Not to offend, but the only good news I expect may only arrive in 5
days.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

> here in this list, no? Maybe a Ambiance-left (default) and a Ambiance-
> right is a idea from me. What about that?

I'm sure those will be downloadable from gnome-look.org pretty soon!

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 27/03/10 13:19, Tom Harris wrote:
> Would data collected in Windows be considered useful?
>   

Yes, certainly. There'd be arguments about interpretations, but a good
data gathering exercise would identify that.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

Il giorno ven, 26/03/2010 alle 20.41 +, Pako ha scritto:
> Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and 
> argument, why should be the right buttons retained.

Please, at this point we are all taking as _obvious_ that right buttons
are to be retained _in absence_ of a particular reason and argument to
move them on the left, and that such a particular reason allegedly
exists but is secret and planned for a later release.
Assuming that collecting (some sort of) data is indeed useful, it is the
only thing that makes sense for the moment.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Colin D Bennett]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:08:40 -
Pako  wrote:

> Colin D Bennett  wrote 
> >If the window buttons are moved to the left, the scroll bar must
> >also be moved to the left hand side.
> 
> In my case and I hope in many of yours, I never use the right
> scrollbar since I'm able to use my touchpad scrollbar on my laptop,
> it is much faster and more efficient and I use only my right hand
> instead of both at once.

I use my touchpad scrolling and mouse scroll wheel *all* the time.
It's great for scrolling as you read a page.

However, when I'm reading a very long web page, ODT document, PDF, or
source code file (i.e. 50+ screenfulls) and want to get from the top to
the middle of the page, it is a complete waste of time to go "roll,
roll, roll, roll, roll, ..." with the wheel or touch pad; instead I
simply make a quick drag of the scroll bar thumb to the exact place I
want to go.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Colin D Bennett]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:18:42 -
Warlon  wrote:

> Here's my little grain of data:
> 
> My mouse pointer usually hovers above the right part of the screen
> simply because text on the screen is aligned left and on the right
> side it's out of the way.

I had this same thought.  The mouse pointer does interfere with reading
the text when it hovers over it.

Sometimes it's even worse: the mouse hovering in an area may even cause
tooltips to pop up and obscure the content of the window!  This just
happened to me as I was reading the Boost.Thread docs on www.boost.org
- wherever the mouse rests, even in plain paragraph text, the section
title pops up as a tooltip!

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

Il giorno ven, 26/03/2010 alle 10.41 +, Imre Gergely ha scritto:
> @Pietro Battiston: I don't think you can be 100% sure that Debian (or
> any other distro) won't do something in the future you will dislike...

I'm 100% sure it won't do something that the majority dislikes,
justifying it with secret plans, because it has that obsolete but nice
form of government called "democracy". But we're OT.

> Just try to explain that she has to click on
> the left now to close the windows and not on the right, and she'll get
> it in notime and forget about it.

I don't think she'll get used, after 10 years of Windows/Ubuntu. But
even if she did, why should I make her exert useless effort?! I love my
grandma. But we're OT.

By the way, my grandma doesn't use skype and facebook, we're again OT.

I'm sorry _I_ triggered the OT: my contribute for this bug was and is
just "if you extend _your_ experience to general rules without good
reasons, you're only contributing to confusion", and that's all.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 25/03/10 22:25, Atel Apsfej wrote:
> Good, finally some guidance.  You shouldn't wait for people to think up
> data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels
> creating "data" that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your
> definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored.
>   

We should learn from any data that's presented. If someone comes up with
interesting data, we should gather what insight we can from it. And I
would be cautious to define in advance the set of "things that might
influence us". In my experience, inspiration and caution can come from
unpredictable sources, and quite usefully so.


> You and the design team are the only group in a position define what is
> acceptable data in your decision-making process. Putting forward some
> questions you want answered like you did above is helpful.

OK, fair enough. In future, I'll be quicker to outline things that
*might* be interesting, and encurage the team to do the same, but will
still encourage folks to be inventive with their research and analysis.
Otherwise we're not really crowdsourcing insight.

>  But you could
> go further, and articulate a framework by which questions can be
> proposed by externals, accepted by the design team as important to the
> design process, and then answered with an acceptable data collection
> methodology.
>   

There are certainly some questions that could definitively be answered
with a single data set. We could keep an eye out for those. But they are
relatively special. In this case, I can't think of a single data set
that would be definitive. But that's why I'd prefer to leave the floor
open to folks to suggest ones that might.


> If you do not articulate a data feedback framework that is acceptable to
> the design team then how is anyone suppose to know what you think is and
> is not acceptable? If you don't have a process by which people can
> propose questions worth answering with data, how do people know what to
> collect data on?
>   

Collect data on what's interesting to you. Most of us do this because
it's interesting, and we like both the company (that's you ;-)) and the
domain. I can't guarantee that any contribution will make it into
Ubuntu, whether it be a patch or a translation or a package or an idea.
But they all make it richer, one way or another. And work that doesn't
get picked up here is still part of the commons and may have an impact
elsewhere.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 25/03/10 22:18, gabriel_samfira wrote:
> 1. I prefer to have "Select windows when the mouse moves over them" (or
> focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely close a
> window, but i do maximize and minimize allot.
>   

I understand that this is a relatively common preference, but it's only
common amongst highly technical and sophisticated users. I'm glad to
retain it as something an expert can enable (yay FLOSS :-)) but it won't
be the Ubuntu default for the foreseeable future, and therefor can't
easily inform our planning.

> 2. well..not *allot* of accidental closes, but enough to get me to pay
> more attention to what I am clicking. I do however (even now):
>
>  - maximize when i want to actually minimize
>  - minimize when trying to maximize
>   

Yes, I think this is a very valid concern. The use of the same styling /
colour for both max and min buttons means one has to pay closer
attention than usual. The pared back nature of the iconography compounds
the problem.

> This happens mostly because i use Lucid at home and Hardy at work. We
> will continue to use Hardy until it is no longer supported. We try to
> avoid changing things in the workplace that don't *really* need changing
> (saves time and money).
>   

If we stick with a theme approach in Lucid that is foundational for
future work, then a backport to current maintained releases would be
appropriate, making it easier for people to keep a consistent portfolio
of machines.


> Hope this helps a bit!
>   

Yes, thank you.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[BobPendleton]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Richard  wrote:
> Clearly there are many people (including me) who don't like the new
> title bar layout, and the loss of the application's icon from the title
> bar - so as a minimum there should be a GUI way to easily revert to the
> older layout, and this should be the default when choosing a different
> theme.  Existing themes such as Human and many others were designed
> around the old layout, so why is the new layout imposed on them?
>
> Also, this will really not help at all with maximising the ease of
> transition for Windows users (bug 1) - they can adapt to the system
> menus being on the top of the screen, but this will just be another
> roadblock in adopting Ubuntu.

Let me point out the unstated assumption here. That is that you can
transition Windows users to Linux. The sad truth is that it is hard to
transition Linux users to Linux. My work requires me to use Windows at
work. That requirement forces me to maintain a Windows box on the
shelf above my main Ubuntu desktop. I am not unlike the vast majority
of computer users in the US. I must use Windows at work or starve.

You can get people to use Linux as their second interface on new types
of devices because they expect a new interface. You can sometimes get
people using a Linux live CD as their secure/banking system (as some
banks are starting to push.) But, you can not expect to move most
people from Windows to Linux because of their need to eat. If you make
the interfaces to different the switch over costs becomes to high and
people will just junk the one that they see as different. For most
people that will be the Linux system.

By the way, Gnome lets you put control bars an any edge of the screen
and Windows lets you move the task bar to any edge of the screen. It
isn't hard to make Gnome look and feel a lot like Windows. You can
make it look so much the same it can be confusing. In fact so
confusing that I just went looking for the preference menu and
realized I was logged on to my Windows box.

Bob Pendleton

>
> Another problem with the Light theme is the highlighted area just below
> middle of the top panel - this draws the eye to that part of the screen
> for no purpose.  Normally such highlights are used in web and UI design
> to draw the eye to the most important part of the screen, but here it's
> just used for no reason I can see.
>
> Instead of imposing this annoying change, how about fixing a real issue
> that is causing accessibility and usability problems to users today -
> the fact that on large screens (or any screen for someone with
> visual/motor disabilities) it's very hard to resize a window using most
> Ubuntu themes:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/metacity/+bug/160311
>
> --
> [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of a duplicate bug.
>
> Status in “light-themes” package in Ubuntu: Triaged
> Status in “metacity” package in Ubuntu: Confirmed
>
> Bug description:
> *** As per the design team's request***
> All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
> All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
> one.
> -
>
> Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
> re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
> (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
>
>  Workaround 
> To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
> $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
> "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
>
> --OR--
>
> Use this PPA: https://launchpad.net/~stownsend42/+archive/light-themes
> This option will also fix the graphical appearance of the buttons.
>
>  Overview 
> Canonical design team leader - "Those pesky buttons" - 2010-03-10
> http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281
> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
> interview starting at 39:10)
>
> Mark Shuttleworth's reply (on this bug report) - 2010-03-15
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110
>  + ~10 following replies
>
> ===
> To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
> of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscribe
>


-- 
+---
+ Bob Pendleton: writer and programmer
+ email: b...@pendleton.com
+ web: www.TheGrumpyProgrammer.com

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[nomnex]

On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 03:54 +, running_rabbit07 wrote:
> nomnex- I am guessing you haven't been watching the thread aisyu made
> with the poll in it on UF. There are quite a few people coming out of
> the woodwork saying have have given it a try and aren't having much of a
> problem at all.

This is not about a problem, this is about identity. Some people might
express their content on a poll, these buttons are still a topic of
polemic for most I guess.

ps: do you mind pasting the link for my information? Thanks

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 23/03/10 13:36, Kasimir Gabert wrote:
> Mark: Stating that these design decisions are good because ``the people
> who made them are good'' is some pretty poor logic---an appeal to
> authority if I'm not mistaken.

I didn't say the decision is good because the people are good. I am
fairly quick to admit my own fallibility, and under pressure might even
admit the fallibility of my colleagues too. It's not yet clear whether
this decision will stand the test of time, or not.

However, I did say that:

 - I and others appreciate the feedback and the passion
 - we have a mandate to make decisions of this nature
 - we have reason to pursue this change, and are running it through the
beta to evaluate it
 - we know it's controversial. more controversy doesn't help, data might
 - if we think this will stick for two years or more, doing it now makes
more sense than less

We've made other decisions in the past that were controversial. The
current layout of the standard GNOME desktop, for example, was quite
controversial at the time. Till GNOME and then other distros adopted it.
Some of those decisions missed the mark, some stuck.

Mark

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Tom Jaeger]

On 03/24/2010 01:13 PM, Pako wrote:
> Oh, you made me cry

http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

If you don't have anything nice (or meaningful) to say, don't say it.
This bug is already long enough.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Requiem Masamune]

No one is arguing it isn't easy to change.
The point is that this will only make things harder for new users
(mainly  from windows but also mac).
The point is also that this makes no one happy (or about %5 of users
IIRC the poll has disappeared or become hard to find)

All the arguments in favor are very weak or irrelevant.
"You can get used to it!" yes, but why?
"You can change it back!" yes, but why? Also newbies can't.
"I like it better this way!" most people --including current users--
don't.
"New features...!" can go on the left instead.
"Mark's baby...!" is our baby too, as in we love ubuntu too.
"But he pays for it" which is why we are arguing with him, not forcing
him.

I won't even make the argument that the new position is inherently bad,
the menu button has been on the left since forever and I hardly ever
click it inadvertently.

That's all, that's the end of it I'm unsubscribing to this bug. I don't
think there is much left to say.

-- 
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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[jgv]

Well... never user a touchpad? Or a >5 years old mouse? Ask your elderly
about their gesture precision too...

Gesture precision has nothing to do with the left or right side


But it does! Cann't you see that?

"Having any buttons on the left-hand side is a problem as long as the
menus for the application are also on the left.  Since Ubuntu uses
in-window
menus it is not advisable to have buttons on the left at all."

Please, make allowance for other people, who don't have your skills.


-Oorspronkelijke bericht-
Van: Pako 
Reply-to: Bug 532633 <532...@bugs.launchpad.net>
Aan: jgv...@gmail.com
Onderwerp: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons:
position/order/alignment
Datum: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:17:13 -


Well... never user a touchpad? Or a >5 years old mouse? Ask your elderly
about their gesture precision too...

Gesture precision has nothing to do with the left or right side

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[jgv]

I guess 90% of the normal Ubuntu users ( not the testers aware of this
bug report) won be able to do so in 15 minutes (never heard of
gconf-editor and so on. And for them we take this action.
P.S. This comment took 15 seconds.


-Oorspronkelijke bericht-
Van: Pako 
Reply-to: Bug 532633 <532...@bugs.launchpad.net>
Aan: jgv...@gmail.com
Onderwerp: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons:
position/order/alignment
Datum: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:11:01 -


I'm sure it took you at least 15 minutes to write this comment, to
change the button layout will take you less than 15 seconds.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Tom Jaeger]

On 03/22/2010 09:21 AM, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:
> While you might the merfect mouse sharpshooter, keeping in mind the
> needs of people with less precise mouse movements is also important -
> the precision needed to hit these buttons on the left among all the
> other control elements there is much higher than before - people with
> special needs and movement problems will have a much harder time
> navigating this environment.

Of course, if you're not very precise with your pointing device (or
visually impaired, or simply using a high-resolution screen) you're
pretty much screwed with the new theme anyway since it is apparently a
design decision (!) not to allow the buttons to scale (bug #532641,
status "Won't fix") and, to add insult to injury, to not give any visual
feedback as to which button has been pressed (bug #532551).

Sadly, the design team doesn't feel the need to comment on those bugs
(especially the first one) either.

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