Fwd: [Unity-design] What do we do with the file manager?
Forwared to Ubuntu desktop list as well. -- Forwarded message -- From: Georgi Karavasilev Date: Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:46 PM Subject: [Unity-design] What do we do with the file manager? To: Ayatana Mailing List Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, this has already been discussed like countless of time already and stuff, however a decision has not been reached, which is bit worrying. Lets face it - there are a lot of choices out there, but none of them are perfect. Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and stability wise), however it has that horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and the back and forward on the right and neither of those two are even remotely good looking. Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down feature wise and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all (super-menu and no menubar, hence no appmenu => no HUD, light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones). Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all that's known about it. Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there, however it does lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE) and *needs **a lot* manpower. last, but not least there is this patched version of Nautilus 3.4 - http://www.webupd8.org/2012/08/install-solusos-patched-nautilus-in-ubuntu-1204.html, that could as well do the trick. It has full-width toolbar and back and back and forward on left. *Personally *I am in favour of investing time and manpower in Marlin. Surely that's biting the bullet and it is bit risky, but it could pay off big time :) So, what do you say? :P -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-des...@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Fwd: [Unity-design] What do we do with the file manager?
Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and stability wise), however it has that horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and the back and forward on the right and neither of those two are even remotely good looking. It would be easy enough to tweak it, but staying on an old unmaintained version of nautilus is not a solution going forward. Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down feature wise and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all (super-menu and no menubar, hence no appmenu => no HUD, light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones). We could probably hack around and push the popup menu content to the HUD if that's the only issue, the problem is that it's not the only change so far (the drop of the menu means we have no "desktop menu" on empty desktops at the moment, they dropped compact view, treeview sidepanel, the lack of menubar looks weird in unity, etc) Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all that's known about it. it's basically a fork of nautilus 3.4 no? Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there, however it does lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE) and *needs */a lot/ manpower. The elementary guys worked on top of marlin for this own file manager as well: https://launchpad.net/pantheon-files Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Fwd: [Unity-design] What do we do with the file manager?
> > Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and stability wise), > however it has that horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and the back > and forward on the right and neither of those two are even remotely good > looking. > > *It would be easy enough to tweak it, but staying on an old unmaintained > version of nautilus is not a solution going forward.* > Exactly what I think about staying on 3.4. Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down feature wise > and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all (super-menu and no menubar, hence > no appmenu => no HUD, light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones). > > *We could probably hack around and push the popup menu content to the HUD > if that's the only issue, the problem is that it's not the only change so > far (the drop of the menu means we have no "desktop menu" on empty desktops > at the moment, they dropped compact view, treeview sidepanel, the lack of > menubar looks weird in unity, etc)* > Again, bang on the money. Whilst nautilus 3.6 works for Gnome it just can't quite cut it for Unity. Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all that's known > about it. > > *it's basically a fork of nautilus 3.4 no?* > Yes, Nemo is Nautilus 3.4 fork from the Mint guys. However Mint and Ubuntu have very different design ideas and in mind, hence I think that Nemo is not the solution here. Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there, however it does > lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE) and *needs **a lot* > manpower. > > > *The elementary guys worked on top of marlin for this own file manager as > well: > https://launchpad.net/pantheon-files* > Yeah, there is also Pantheon-Files, but knowing the elementary guys Marlin will be much more open for contributions and ubuntui-zing. Elementary and Ubuntu have two different HIGs and there will be design issues poping out with Pantheon files. This one is a prime example: Unity needs menubar => appmenu => HUD. Elementary apps depend on cog-menu button on the right, hence they are likely to not allow pantheon-files to have a menubar, even if it is optional. Marlin dev on the other hand (am-monkeyd) should be more open to Ubuntu contributions to Marlin, through I can't guarantee that 100%. The reason why I started this talk is because there file manager issue is becoming more and more problematic as the time goes by and a decision must be taken sooner or later :) ... preferably sooner :P -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] What do we do with the file manager?
Hello, The missing (and removed, not just hidden) features in the new Nautilus that Ubuntu has imho to "patch" : - Extra Pane Mode (F3) - Status bar : for me it is absolutely necessary and useful to know in just one second number of elements in a folder and free space available, without having to do "Properties" on context menu. And the free space is no more visible on the floating bar. - Tree view : I use it a lot, as I have a very hierarchical organization of folders, with many sub-folders. And I need to see the tree to move files to another folder with drag and drop directly. - Some icons (Up, address bar location...). - Global menu : problem with HUD, global user experience (all applications have the menu in the top left), bookmarks no more available here : as I put sometimes tree view, I also need a very quick access to bookmarks. I do not use the defaults "Images", "Documents"... places as I organize my files by activity (Personal, Work, Friends...), not by type, so I've a lot of bookmarks which need quick and common access. - I also discovered another necessary missing detail : dev' removed the hour in the date, both in the list view and in the window which opens when I copy files, in case of 2 documents have the same name !!! Now if the 2 documents have been saved on the same day but not the same hour, I do not know which is the more recent, which I should keep or replace. I do lots of copy between computers (with USB), folders, I don't use the cloud and synchronization for everywhere, just for backups, now I'm not able anymore to do simple file copies... It's perhaps not the "good" way to use computer, but it's mine. And there is no a "make code simple" reason for this... I didn't find, for the moment, the possibility, on the config files or so (dconf), to add back the hour (hh:mm) in date :( I understand the aim of Gnome developers to have clean code, easy-to-use program, but here in Quantal Nautilus is no more a full file manager, it's a pity. OK, way to use computer is different, with Zeitgeist and Unity Dash / Lenses for example in many cases a file manager is no more essential, but in many others it's useful, and I'm accustomed to it, like many users. So as alternative there is Marlin (now Pantheon), but it has not all the functions and nice look Nautilus had until last version, too. Nemo, the Linux Mint fork ? It depends what they aim to do. For the moment, it's Nautilus 3.4.2 with also some missing features, mainly due to the change of name and lack of configuration. For example, what does not work in Nemo : - No "Compress" command for archiving with File Roller in the context menu - No option like nautilus-actions as open-terminal in a specific folder - No green or blue icon under the folder icon in Ubuntu One or Dropbox to indicate state of synchronization I hope Ubuntu will make a good choice on this, as a complete file manager is still needed. Best regards, Xavier On 09-08-12 13:36, Sebastien Bacher wrote: Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and stability wise), however it has that horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and the back and forward on the right and neither of those two are even remotely good looking. It would be easy enough to tweak it, but staying on an old unmaintained version of nautilus is not a solution going forward. Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down feature wise and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all (super-menu and no menubar, hence no appmenu => no HUD, light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones). We could probably hack around and push the popup menu content to the HUD if that's the only issue, the problem is that it's not the only change so far (the drop of the menu means we have no "desktop menu" on empty desktops at the moment, they dropped compact view, treeview sidepanel, the lack of menubar looks weird in unity, etc) Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all that's known about it. it's basically a fork of nautilus 3.4 no? Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there, however it does lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE) and *needs */a lot/ manpower. The elementary guys worked on top of marlin for this own file manager as well: https://launchpad.net/pantheon-files Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
The three things that Marlin misses are: A) Stability B) Split screen (multiple panes) ... maybe? C) Ability to "draw the desktop' (e.g. desktop icons, right click on desktop -> context menu) I believe (could be wrong) that those can be solved for 12.10 if the work starts soon enough. And yeah, Xavier, nautilus 3.6 has too much to be fixed, *waayy t much.* * * All hands considered I believe that 12.10 should either user some pretty (no horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and no "back" and "forward" on the left) or a fixed version of Marlin. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
Le 09/08/2012 14:50, Georgi Karavasilev a écrit : The three things that Marlin misses are: A) Stability B) Split screen (multiple panes) ... maybe? C) Ability to "draw the desktop' (e.g. desktop icons, right click on desktop -> context menu) I believe (could be wrong) that those can be solved for 12.10 if the work starts soon enough. Ubuntu one integration as well -- Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
To be honest, there is so much work to be done in nautilus 3.6 that I find it hard to believe if it is even a choice here -_- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
I think so too. The only good feature in 3.6, that I can find, is the black icon set for the left panel. Am 09.08.2012, 16:49 Uhr, schrieb Georgi Karavasilev : To be honest, there is so much work to be done in nautilus 3.6 that I find it hard to believe if it is even a choice here -_- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
Maximal features should not be our goal. What's best for the default install should be. There are always going to be other file managers a user can install from the USC for more features. We should pick a path that is best in terms of maintainability for us and usability for across-the-chasm users. Picking one of the forks of 3.4 nautilus means that either we are the sole stewards or we will conflict with the existing maintainers over design goals (which sounds a lot like GNOME but with less manpower). I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I vote we just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit better when running under Unity. -mt On Thu 09 Aug 2012 10:52:28 EDT, Jonas Platte wrote: I think so too. The only good feature in 3.6, that I can find, is the black icon set for the left panel. Am 09.08.2012, 16:49 Uhr, schrieb Georgi Karavasilev : To be honest, there is so much work to be done in nautilus 3.6 that I find it hard to believe if it is even a choice here -_- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
Le 09/08/2012 17:05, Michael Terry a écrit : Picking one of the forks of 3.4 nautilus means that either we are the sole stewards or we will conflict with the existing maintainers over design goals (which sounds a lot like GNOME but with less manpower). I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I vote we just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit better when running under Unity. Hey Michael, I agree with that mostly, I think we have some issues with 3.6 we need to solve at minimum: - we need to get our "desktop menu" (the one you get when you are on an empty workspace) back - we need to get the HUD working back with nautilus (we probably need to figure a solution for all apps using gear-icon-popup-menus) - we probably want a traditional menubar back, the gear menu and the app menu just doesn't work well in Unity and is different from all our other apps - I'm not sure what to think about things like the dropping of compact view or extra pane mode... We at least need to solve the 3 first items and we should have an opinion on the last one. I see 2 ways for this cycle: - spend the time to fix those 3 items at minima and figure what to do next at UDS - upload nautilus 3.4 to the archive, have both for one cycle (they will conflict but that's fine), default to 3.4, discuss what to do next at UDS The second one is a "safer" option imho, especially if nobody has time to work on fixing the issues listed previously. Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
Le 09/08/2012 18:15, Sebastien Bacher a écrit : Le 09/08/2012 17:05, Michael Terry a écrit : Picking one of the forks of 3.4 nautilus means that either we are the sole stewards or we will conflict with the existing maintainers over design goals (which sounds a lot like GNOME but with less manpower). I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I vote we just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit better when running under Unity. Hey Michael, I agree with that mostly, I think we have some issues with 3.6 we need to solve at minimum: - we need to get our "desktop menu" (the one you get when you are on an empty workspace) back - we need to get the HUD working back with nautilus (we probably need to figure a solution for all apps using gear-icon-popup-menus) - we probably want a traditional menubar back, the gear menu and the app menu just doesn't work well in Unity and is different from all our other apps - I'm not sure what to think about things like the dropping of compact view or extra pane mode... I agree with both views that are discussed here. Thanks seb for having the list of what we can think of "minimum" feature we want :) We at least need to solve the 3 first items and we should have an opinion on the last one. I see 2 ways for this cycle: - spend the time to fix those 3 items at minima and figure what to do next at UDS - upload nautilus 3.4 to the archive, have both for one cycle (they will conflict but that's fine), default to 3.4, discuss what to do next at UDS As the nautilus deep changes came by surprise this cycle, we didn't plan any available workforce to get them back. Also, Feature Freeze is just a couple of weeks away. My advice would go with the 2nd solution here so that we don't rush and have a semi-finished product and additional unknown bugs. Also we won't have to patch and repatch seeing how much nautilus upstream trunk is moving at every 3.5.x release. Then, we can discuss quietly at UDS about what to do. Cheers, Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Sebastien Bacher wrote: > Le 09/08/2012 17:05, Michael Terry a écrit : >> I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I vote we >> just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit better when >> running under Unity. THIS. I think we already have a bad reputation for forking things needlessly. My vote is to cooperate as much as possible with upstream and have only minimal patches. I realize that not everybody agrees on every change that is made, but we really need to get over ourselves and get better at cooperating if we're going to succeed. We'll never resolve https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 if we decide that the world really does need 5 different forks of Nautilus. > - I'm not sure what to think about things like the dropping of compact view > or extra pane mode... I've been using the new Nautilus and I really like it quite a bit. I don't miss extra pane view at all, I feel like the improvements made to the breadcrumb trail have totally supplanted extra pane view. Here's a common use-case I find myself in all the time: I unpack a tarball containing half a dozen files into a directory, of which I only care about one. So I want to move that one out of the directory, then delete the directory. With extra pane view, you have to navigate both panes, then drag the file across, then close the pane and delete the directory. With the breadcrumb trail, you just enter the directory, drag the file to the breadcrumb representing the parent dir, then from there you can directly right click on the breadcrumb representing the current dir and select 'move to trash'. Overall it's a significant reduction in both number of clicks, and distance required to move the mouse. I think it's brilliant! As for compact view, well, the justification was that they were going to make list view get better to encompass that functionality, so if that's the case then I think it was kind of ass-backwards to delete compact view before improving list view. Fortunately the upstream git commits are quite cleanly organized so it shouldn't be too difficult to just revert that one commit that removes compact view, and maintain that as a patch until we see what happens to list view. -- http://gottengeography.ca -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
On 09/08/12 12:15, Sebastien Bacher wrote: I see 2 ways for this cycle: - spend the time to fix those 3 items at minima and figure what to do next at UDS - upload nautilus 3.4 to the archive, have both for one cycle (they will conflict but that's fine), default to 3.4, discuss what to do next at UDS The second one is a "safer" option imho, especially if nobody has time to work on fixing the issues listed previously. I'm fine with either, but since we couldn't plan for this time-wise, I agree that the second one is more reasonable for 12.10 and we can have a fun discussion about it at UDS. -mt -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 10:54:25PM EST, Sebastien Bacher wrote: > Le 09/08/2012 14:50, Georgi Karavasilev a écrit : > >The three things that Marlin misses are: > >A) Stability > >B) Split screen (multiple panes) ... maybe? > >C) Ability to "draw the desktop' (e.g. desktop icons, right click > >on desktop -> context menu) > >I believe (could be wrong) that those can be solved for 12.10 if > >the work starts soon enough. > > > Ubuntu one integration as well Is it written in GTK? If not, assistive technology use/accessibility is also a concern. Luke -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
Everyone of the suggested ones here uses GTK 3, yes :) -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Unity-design] Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
On 08/09/2012 06:15 PM, Sebastien Bacher wrote: I see 2 ways for this cycle: - spend the time to fix those 3 items at minima and figure what to do next at UDS - upload nautilus 3.4 to the archive, have both for one cycle (they will conflict but that's fine), default to 3.4, discuss what to do next at UDS The second one is a "safer" option imho, especially if nobody has time to work on fixing the issues listed previously. Going from 'a half decently working' file manager to 'a less than half decently working' one wouldn't be a step forward. Even if the latter has the version number 3.6. I'd go with the second option. This deep into the release there is probably no way to make 3.6 an option for 12.10. For the future, if there are people to spare, then it would probably be the best to stick with Nautilus that is patched so it fits in with Unity for at least a couple of cycles. Then some other solution will be needed. It appears that Gnome will be going in a completely different direction than Unity and maintaining things just to keep it integrated will become more and more of a pain. Regards, David -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
