Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 19:03 +0100, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > > On 7 March 2010 22:56, Alex Launi wrote: > > > I don't think that new users will crap their pants over the window > > > controls > > > being on the left, I think we've all seen OSX before. > I'm pretty sure this whole issue is going to become a flamewar until > Lucid is released, if not beyond - sorry for that. But I find it really > bad that in an open project like Ubuntu such visible changes are not > discussed and elaborated publicly, instead of being released late in the > cycle with any explanation. > > Last cycle Canonical pushed the "Ubuntu Software Store", whose name > prompted heated debates, before changing its name to something less > commercial. Now it seems we're going to suffer from those internal > fights again, and I'm sure in the end Lucid will ship with something > more sensible. Couldn't this have been discussed calmly in the desktop > list before any choices are made? Couldn't the ubuntu-art list have been > made part of the process, instead of letting them know when everything > is over [1]? These times, I too often feel like volunteers are > second-class citizens in Ubuntu. > > I won't comment on the design choices themselves, because what I don't > like in them is merely IMO a consequence of the lack of prior > concertation. Just a sarcastic comment about the fact that with the > upcoming switch to GNOME Shell, the left corner of windows will be just > next to the Activities hot corner - better be aware of it, reverting the > window buttons order for 10.10 would be quite ridiculous... WOW! Interesting point! I was just expecting flamewar/backlash about this change to fizzle out like the update-notifier and anyone who is irritated would change it back . But keeping gnome-shell in mind, this change truly becomes difficult to understand. Anyways , there is a bug[1] regarding this change, i dont think anyone has mentioned this before. I guess no one thought it through ;) [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 -- Cheers, Vish -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
> On 7 March 2010 22:56, Alex Launi wrote: > > I don't think that new users will crap their pants over the window controls > > being on the left, I think we've all seen OSX before. I'm pretty sure this whole issue is going to become a flamewar until Lucid is released, if not beyond - sorry for that. But I find it really bad that in an open project like Ubuntu such visible changes are not discussed and elaborated publicly, instead of being released late in the cycle with any explanation. Last cycle Canonical pushed the "Ubuntu Software Store", whose name prompted heated debates, before changing its name to something less commercial. Now it seems we're going to suffer from those internal fights again, and I'm sure in the end Lucid will ship with something more sensible. Couldn't this have been discussed calmly in the desktop list before any choices are made? Couldn't the ubuntu-art list have been made part of the process, instead of letting them know when everything is over [1]? These times, I too often feel like volunteers are second-class citizens in Ubuntu. I won't comment on the design choices themselves, because what I don't like in them is merely IMO a consequence of the lack of prior concertation. Just a sarcastic comment about the fact that with the upcoming switch to GNOME Shell, the left corner of windows will be just next to the Activities hot corner - better be aware of it, reverting the window buttons order for 10.10 would be quite ridiculous... Hope I didn't hurt anybody, the whole point is in the process, not in the skills of individuals. 1: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-March/011840.html -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
Op zondag 07-03-2010 om 16:09 uur [tijdzone -0800], schreef Dylan McCall: > PS: Anyone know what happened to the context menu on right clicking > the window title bar? It works as before. -- Jan Claeys -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Erik Andersen wrote: > Hi, > I too would like to put in my vote for putting the buttons back on the > right side in the order most people are used to. > Thanks, > Erik B. Andersen I have opinions on both sides of the fence here. I am very concerned about end users, though, so I think I'd agree with the "put buttons back how they were" crowd for the most part. That, or at least a hack to get the window button position controlled by the current Metacity theme. I'm leaning more towards just changing the order back, though. While there may be some geeky merit in the different order, it breaks a lot of themes and it reeks having with muscle memory moreso than the left / right thing does. (At least for me it does, and I am of course the centre of the universe). I observed something really neat with the way things are right now. Moving a window is more Fitt's-law-ish (if you'll forgive the number of times that law gets thrown about every day), since one can push the mouse pointer to the top right of a window and, without a second thought, start dragging it. This is helped by the enlarged target via the (although slightly hacky :b) draggable menu patch in downstream GTK. Having the window buttons on the left means the area to the top right of the window is clear of obstruction, so there isn't a risk of pressing something by accident. Food for thought, anyway... Dylan PS: Anyone know what happened to the context menu on right clicking the window title bar? -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
Hi, I too would like to put in my vote for putting the buttons back on the right side in the order most people are used to. Thanks, Erik B. Andersen -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
On 7 March 2010 22:56, Alex Launi wrote: > I don't think that new users will crap their pants over the window controls > being on the left, I think we've all seen OSX before. Perhaps you're right, though I personally know lots of people who have never seen OS X, and much less used it. Doesn't OS X arrange their buttons in a different order, by the way? I hope you're right that average Windows-users won't be put off by this, though all my experience with "normal Windows users" tells me, it will. I've only tried this change on ten "normal users", but I had to explain this to eight of them. I never had to explain how to close a window when karmic was released. But you're right. The window looks much cleaner on the right side now, which is very good news for all those who read from right to left and therefore focus more on the right side than on the left. I'm also interested to see how many people will close the window instead of opening the applications- menu because of this, but if that becomes a problem, then we can just move the applications menu to the right side in the next release, right? But I'm sure extensive usability tests in the real world have proven that left is more efficient and user friendly than right, so perhaps I shouldn't worry so much. Jo-Erlend -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
On 7 March 2010 19:10, Rick Spencer wrote: > While I look forward to your continued contributions and support of > Ubuntu, note that using the word "stupidity" to describe the > contributions of people who dedicate so much effort and heart and soul > to Ubuntu is not appropriate or acceptable on this list. > > In terms of the feedback that you requested for your communication > style, I can say that when I hear someone use a word like "stupidity" in > a public list or other forum, I assume the person fears change, or > worse, is simply a troll. You would have made your point more > effectively without insulting the contributions of others. > > Cheers, Rick You're right, of course, and I apologize. But it seems extremely unwise to me, to upset a large portion of the community just before the release of the most important Ubuntu ever. It seems to me, that such a radical change would warrant some prior discussons and explanations. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps new users coming from Windows won't notice the difference, or be tricked into thinking Ubuntu requires you to learn everything from scratch. Perhaps I'm overestimating the value of making new users feel comfortable. And after all, it's not that difficult to tell new users to simply change theme and then press alt+f2 and paste gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout \ --type string "menu:minimize,maximize,close". But why should this be necessary? What's so important about moving the buttons to the left, that people should have to retrain their muscles in order to get comfortable with Ubuntu? Are these changes written in stone, so they will persist no matter what the users think, or is it possible that they'll be reverted? How do we explain this in our marketing brochures, and when will it be safe to upgrade manuals, screenshots, screencasts, etc? Jo-Erlend -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Beautiful awesomeness ---stupidity?---
On Sat, 2010-03-06 at 17:14 +0100, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > > I'm sorry if I come across as overly critical, but this really upsets > me. It looks nice, but it's a pain to work with. Please prioritize > functionality before aesthetics. Please review the Ubuntu Code of Conduct and remember that it applies to this list: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct While I look forward to your continued contributions and support of Ubuntu, note that using the word "stupidity" to describe the contributions of people who dedicate so much effort and heart and soul to Ubuntu is not appropriate or acceptable on this list. In terms of the feedback that you requested for your communication style, I can say that when I hear someone use a word like "stupidity" in a public list or other forum, I assume the person fears change, or worse, is simply a troll. You would have made your point more effectively without insulting the contributions of others. Cheers, Rick -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
