Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
I gave this a try, and I love it. The normal functionality of clicking on the scrolling thing and moving it is preserved, along with using the scrollwheel in the scrollbar, so no usability is lost. I see this as a really big hit with touchscreen devices also. Being able to place the finger anywhere on the scrollbar and scrolling normally. Very nice! -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
On Monday 18 August 2008 08:31:03 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Mackenzie Morgan wrote on 15/08/08 21:53: ... I must admit, on a large screen moving all the way from top to bottom of the scrollbar is a royal pain. I wouldn't mind having easier targets. Mac OS 8 and later fixes this with a much smaller change: it lets you put the arrow buttons next to each other at the bottom/right of the scrollbar, instead of at opposite ends. You can even drag from one button to the other while the mouse button is still down. KDE does a similar (but somewhat more confusing) thing by having two up/left buttons in a scrollbar, one at the the top/left and the other next to the down/right button. Hmm.. are you using a weird widget set? We do it exactly like OS X with an up control at the top and an up/down control at the bottom (see attached, left KDE3, right KDE4) ~ Celeste Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -- Celeste Lyn Paul KDE Usability Project usability.kde.org attachment: scrollbar.png-- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Celeste Lyn Paul wrote on 18/08/08 14:01: On Monday 18 August 2008 08:31:03 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... KDE does a similar (but somewhat more confusing) thing by having two up/left buttons in a scrollbar, one at the the top/left and the other next to the down/right button. Hmm.. are you using a weird widget set? We do it exactly like OS X with an up control at the top and an up/down control at the bottom (see attached, left KDE3, right KDE4) ... In Mac OS X, a vertical scrollbar has one up button and one down button. The Appearance control panel lets you specify where the up button goes. (It's possible to have both buttons at both ends, but only using command-line settings or third-party utilities like TinkerTool.) In KDE, as shown in your screenshot, a vertical scrollbar has two up buttons and one down button. It's not obvious why going up is twice as important as going down, and having multiple buttons for the same task causes dither. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIqYPM6PUxNfU6ecoRAre6AJsEzXcYa48IJLCdN0JjCXwIY3FXZgCaA7y3 1X4SfHmnKtIKdKABDpBVLBg= =9HB2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
Has anyone got a link to a discussion on this issue with GTK? It's really time we started trying out and pushing NEW ideas, rather than sticking with the same old. Alex On 14/08/2008, Alexander Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there's little chance we'll be diverging from upstream GTK on a component as important as this. I suggest you take this concept straight to GTK. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
On Monday 18 August 2008 10:14:37 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Celeste Lyn Paul wrote on 18/08/08 14:01: On Monday 18 August 2008 08:31:03 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... KDE does a similar (but somewhat more confusing) thing by having two up/left buttons in a scrollbar, one at the the top/left and the other next to the down/right button. Hmm.. are you using a weird widget set? We do it exactly like OS X with an up control at the top and an up/down control at the bottom (see attached, left KDE3, right KDE4) ... In Mac OS X, a vertical scrollbar has one up button and one down button. The Appearance control panel lets you specify where the up button goes. (It's possible to have both buttons at both ends, but only using command-line settings or third-party utilities like TinkerTool.) Aah, I see. Strange, all of the screenshots I googled had three arrow buttons. In KDE, as shown in your screenshot, a vertical scrollbar has two up buttons and one down button. It's not obvious why going up is twice as important as going down, and having multiple buttons for the same task causes dither. Hum.. I've never noticed anyone have problems with it during testing before (~ 30 participants using KDE in various ways) and I don't remember anyone from OpenUsability mentioning anything. I think the second up arrow is a simple single-learning event, if you want to try the up arrow, it is obvious what it does and so the user can choose to use that method or not. Scrolling is not inhibited by it. *shrugs* Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -- Celeste Lyn Paul KDE Usability Project usability.kde.org -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 09:50 -0700, Dylan McCall wrote: You've probably noticed this already, but I find it hard to grab the 'bar' if my mouse is already in the trough. I have to move the mouse off of the trough and then back on where the bar is. I know it's not necessary to grab the bar, and also that one can drag after clicking an arrow (cool!) but some users will expect that functionality anyway. You can always just drag, so I don't see a problem there. I already use highlighting of the indicator on hovering the bar and a cursor change to encourage to not aim for the indicator. The scroll arrows should have a timer for when they disappear. Some users will move the mouse off of the trough by accident. Right now, the arrows disappear and then reset at a different position. If the pointer is moved straight back on, the arrows are centred around it instead of one being directly below. Such a delay before a reset is already on my list. Other entries: - page-wise stepping on click-hold (switch to sliding on drag) - continued scrolling on hitting screen edges - additional horizontal version - drawing button areas all the way to the top/bottom to leave no doubt about target areas - better name (I'm using dynamic scrollbars now) - look into packaging deb/ppa I started to use bzr/launchpad: https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/dynamic_scrollbar Current state is pretty dodgy, not useful for testing. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
I think there's little chance we'll be diverging from upstream GTK on a component as important as this. I suggest you take this concept straight to GTK. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Danny Piccirillo wrote on 14/08/08 00:18: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/ This would just give Ubuntu more edge and make it even more intuitive. Although for people used to the old style scrollbar it may be confusing at first glance, it would quickly become another reason to get hooked on Ubuntu :) ... How do you know? Have you tested it? If so, on how many people? It would be an interesting thing to test. I wonder how difficult it would be to modify a few apps to use that method, so that we can try it out and get our friends/family to try it out as well. -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Odysseus Flappington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, if it is actually even the tiniest bit more user-friendly that what we currently have, which I have to admit I've been frustrated with before, everyone will scream Ubuntu's innovation.. I must admit, on a large screen moving all the way from top to bottom of the scrollbar is a royal pain. I wouldn't mind having easier targets. I remember if you clicked and held the center button/scroll wheel on Windows you could drag the page around a bit as well, to keep from having to go to the scrollbar. Can't figure out how to do that on Ubuntu, but then I'd rather not sacrifice middle-click-to-paste either. -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:07 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote And I really do like it. I think a lot of people, including myself, like the page up/down function of the traditional scrollbar though.Perhaps that could be done using a right-click on the arrows, for up or down for instance? That would avoid clashing with the main functionality, but I'm uneasy about using right click for things other than context menus. I even added one with items for jumping to start or end :) I also consider bookmarking through that context menu. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
Hi Thorsten! You've probably noticed this already, but I find it hard to grab the 'bar' if my mouse is already in the trough. I have to move the mouse off of the trough and then back on where the bar is. I know it's not necessary to grab the bar, and also that one can drag after clicking an arrow (cool!) but some users will expect that functionality anyway. Right now I subconsciously move my pointer onto the bar after entering the trough from the top. As a result, I click the Down arrow by accident. The only way to avoid that is if I move my pointer slightly upwards, which is distracting mouse acrobatics. It may cause problems when the bar is bigger, but what if the arrows were not allowed to move inside of the bar? For example, instead of following the mouse pointer onto the scroll bar, the arrows would skip to either end of it. Then again, that may be too much of a sacrifice since the arrows are then no longer totally predictable. Does anyone have other ideas? The scroll arrows should have a timer for when they disappear. Some users will move the mouse off of the trough by accident. Right now, the arrows disappear and then reset at a different position. If the pointer is moved straight back on, the arrows are centred around it instead of one being directly below. The timer could work like this: -Pointer moves inside trough. The arrows follow so that he is poised to click the top one. -Pointer moves off of trough. Arrows are still visible... -Within three seconds, pointer moves back onto trough. User can immediately click to press the top arrow. and this: -Pointer moves inside trough. The arrows follow so that he is poised to click the top one. -Pointer moves off of trough. Arrows are still visible... -Within three seconds, the pointer is put back to an entirely different place on the trough (away from the arrows' current position). Arrows follow pointer as usual. Bye, -Dylan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Danny Piccirillo wrote on 14/08/08 00:18: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/ This would just give Ubuntu more edge and make it even more intuitive. Although for people used to the old style scrollbar it may be confusing at first glance, it would quickly become another reason to get hooked on Ubuntu :) ... How do you know? Have you tested it? If so, on how many people? Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpc/U6PUxNfU6ecoRAhKCAJ9dPNxwFZMqOxvxVhtQma8c/Df8ugCdE7gU +Gvdse+hAjayZ7Toc719q3E= =FejC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Intuitive Popup Scrollbars
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/ This would just give Ubuntu more edge and make it even more intuitive. Although for people used to the old style scrollbar it may be confusing at first glance, it would quickly become another reason to get hooked on Ubuntu :) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/253546 http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8353/ Thoughts? -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
