Re: Providing a less dramatic upgrade for LTS-users.
Jo-Erlend Schinstad [2011-12-15 12:20 +0100]: Many of these users will be presented with a New distribution available upgrade for the very first time. It is likely that many will just go right ahead and install the upgrade. When they reboot, they will log into a completely new environment. As we've seen, this can upset people when they don't expect the change. This sounds like we should perhaps address this in update-manager? It could show a slideshow similar to the one in Ubiquity, and/or also point out that the default desktop changes? My proposal is that users who _upgrade_ from 10.04 should be presented with a Gnome Panel desktop, kept as close to the setup in 10.04 as possible. At some point we need to switch those users to the current stuff anyway, we can't keep the old panel stuff forever. Even today, only few people are still working on it. Also, if you upgrade to a totally new OS version, it is really not realistic to not expect any change. I do agree that the change is indeed quite big, and I've heard a few complaints and how do I do X now? questions myself, but if Unity has some discoverability/usability issues (and it does), we need to address those for all people, not just for LTS upgraders. Also, from a purely technical perspective, changing the configuration for all existing users by packages or even update-manager is a no-go area. u-m could switch the default session at the system level, but then new users/guest session would also use the old one, and you would never see the desktop which we actually support anywhere. If users see the GNOME-3 variant of GNOME panel, they will rightfully have the impression that there's nothign really new, just a lot of stuff has stopped working. Is that really the experience we want to convey? I think not. This should be very easy since most of the stuff on the panel has been converted to indicators in any case, and the indicator applet has been upgraded to Gnome Panel 3, along with the default applets. At the first login after the upgrade, the user should be presented with a dialog that tells the user about the new desktop and that you can open a guest session to try it without any consequences. That sounds more feasible -- you could show a screenshot/dialog how to switch back to the old environment. One thing that we should do is to make sure that LTS-LTS upgrades will keep gnome-panel installed, to already have the session available in lightdm (for fresh installs you need to explicitly install that package). The only issue I can think of that might require a little work, is panel applets compatibility. Some will not have been upgraded and therefore not available. In fact, the vast majority of panel applets are gone now, so there's nothing to upgrade. Cf. my statement above about nobody really working on the old panel stuff any more. It would be nice to have something similar to what Firefox has for its extensions. The upgrade mechanism isn't the problem here -- if a panel applet package is available for GNOME 3, it'll be upgraded automatically. The problem is that nobody has ported all the old panels in the first place. Thanks! Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Providing a less dramatic upgrade for LTS-users.
Den 20. des. 2011 09:36, skrev Martin Pitt: Jo-Erlend Schinstad [2011-12-15 12:20 +0100]: Many of these users will be presented with a New distribution available upgrade for the very first time. It is likely that many will just go right ahead and install the upgrade. When they reboot, they will log into a completely new environment. As we've seen, this can upset people when they don't expect the change. This sounds like we should perhaps address this in update-manager? It could show a slideshow similar to the one in Ubiquity, and/or also point out that the default desktop changes? Having some interesting slides while doing a distribution upgrade would be nice in any case. I don't think that solves the issues I'm pointing out, though. My proposal is that users who _upgrade_ from 10.04 should be presented with a Gnome Panel desktop, kept as close to the setup in 10.04 as possible. At some point we need to switch those users to the current stuff anyway, we can't keep the old panel stuff forever. Even today, only few people are still working on it. Also, if you upgrade to a totally new OS version, it is really not realistic to not expect any change. Why can't we keep the old panel stuff forever if people want them, they don't cause any conflicts and developers develop them? I spoke to Vincent Untz about the panels, and he confirmed my impression that the panels were mostly finished. So, while it may be true that few people are working on the panels themselves, it is also true that there is little work that needs to be done. It makes very little sense to me to remove programs _because_ they are stable, mature and finished. Some things just doesn't need that much more innovation, and that should be considered a good thing. So most developers move onto more modern and challenging projects, and take most of the users with them -- and that's a good thing too -- but I see no reason why we can't have both. The nail gun didn't replace the hammer, even if it's a lot more efficient for many use cases. I do agree that people should expect changes when upgrading to a new operating system. However, many LTS users are actively trying to _avoid_ changes, but are being forced to upgrade in order to keep their systems safe. In any case, I think upgrading users should _choose_ to switch to Unity, and switching should be dead easy. I do agree that the change is indeed quite big, and I've heard a few complaints and how do I do X now? questions myself, but if Unity has some discoverability/usability issues (and it does), we need to address those for all people, not just for LTS upgraders. Sure, but that's a completely different issue. I don't think Unity will ever be automatically understood by everyone, and I don't think that should be a goal either. I used to think that, but I no longer do. The main goal should be to make the system comfortable and efficient to use. I really love the way Unity hides UI cruft when it's not actually usable. It does make the desktop a little less didactic, but most users are going to spend a lot of time using it, so even if it should require spending a couple of minutes browsing a small pamphlet, it's worth it. But no matter how friendly Unity becomes, there will be users who are afraid of changes. By giving control to that user, you're reducing the fear. Also, from a purely technical perspective, changing the configuration for all existing users by packages or even update-manager is a no-go area. u-m could switch the default session at the system level, but then new users/guest session would also use the old one, and you would never see the desktop which we actually support anywhere. Changing the users configuration is the current situation. The user has Gnome Panel, which will still be available in Precise. After the upgrade, the users configuration will be changed to use Unity instead. Or have I misunderstood something? Because my suggestion is that we _don't_ change the configuration. Instead upgrading users keep using their familiar shell, but will be presented with a dialog that tells them about Unity at the first boot after upgrade. If users see the GNOME-3 variant of GNOME panel, they will rightfully have the impression that there's nothign really new, just a lot of stuff has stopped working. Is that really the experience we want to convey? I think not. The users I've used in my scenario won't have lots of stuff stop working. Only heavy users of third-party panel applets will experience that. Those users will by necessity have some background information, which means they'll probably understand the situation. All the default applets that were used in 10.04 is still available, and someone has ported the indicator applet. But you do have a point, though I have an opposite view. Replacing the shell at the same time that underlying technologies were changed, has created more confusion than anything else I can recall. Now,
Re: Providing a less dramatic upgrade for LTS-users.
Den 15. des. 2011 14:25, skrev Chris Wilson: I don't think turning off Unity after the upgrade is the way to go, partly because there isn't anything to replace it with since Gnome 2 is no longer maintained, but mainly because any disruption to the user's workflow caused by the transition (and you're right in thinking there will be) will only be temporary until they learn how to use Unity, which isn't too difficult once you get down to it. First of all, you're wrong. The classic desktop is available and supported in Ubuntu. The indicator applet is also available, though from a third-party repo, but that's easily handled.A few weeks ago, I made this screenshot, for instance. It is Gnome 3 in 11.10: http://ubuntuone.com/0FQKR9MBQp5lMTgtg3jRg5. I did that in only a couple of minutes. Not a big deal at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it. But the notion that it is easy to learn how to use Unity is only valid when people are willing to learn. A lot of people are not. I've taught a number of really basic users how to get stuff done in Ubuntu, for instance. I feel confident that a high percentage of those will stop using their computers until I can teach them Unity. LTS users are special, and I am only recommending this for LTS-upgrades, only for upgrades and switching to Unity should be possible by the click of a button at the center of the screen. Fresh installs should use Unity. I think a better solution would be to notify the users of the new interface during the upgrade process, preferably as close to the beginning as possible, but of course spin it in a positive manner, such as Ubuntu's had a facelift and now looks even better then ever. Preferably, users should've read the release notes before upgrading to begin with, so such a notification should be pointless. But we don't live in an ideal world, and as I said in my original post, a large number of users are either afraid or unwilling to explore their systems. I don't think that should be required in order to keep using Ubuntu. I agree that most people should find Unity easy to learn, but I think the friendly thing to do is to let the user choose. For those who know what it is, it'll be one click. For those who doesn't, it will be one click to try it and one click to keep the classic or switch to the new one. This gives a sense of control that tends to dispel the fear and uncertainty that some users do feel when things suddenly changes. Then provide a link to a resource where the user can learn all about Unity while their system upgrade, perhaps the Ubuntu Tour website with an added interactive tutorial to lead the users through their new workflow for the first time. The upgrade was successful. Welcome to Ubuntu 12.04LTS. Click _here_ to RTFM :) Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Providing a less dramatic upgrade for LTS-users.
Hello, 2011/12/15 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com: .. My proposal is that users who _upgrade_ from 10.04 should be presented with a Gnome Panel desktop, kept as close to the setup in 10.04 as possible. This should be very easy since most of the stuff on the panel has been converted to indicators in any case, and the indicator applet has been upgraded to Gnome Panel 3, along with the default applets. At the first login after the upgrade, the user should be presented with a dialog that tells the user about the new desktop and that you can open a guest session to try it Very good idea! I fully support the reasoning and the proposed solution. - Otto -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
