Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Do, 2013-04-04 at 09:56 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: There is a related bug already: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1116791 i demoted them to recommends (so removing them doesn't uninstall ubuntu-desktop) in the seeds but have to wait with an upload of ubuntu-meta until after the beta is out (i don't want to interfere with the release today) ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Do, 2013-04-04 at 09:41 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: hi, On Do, 2013-04-04 at 09:56 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: There is a related bug already: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1116791 i demoted them to recommends (so removing them doesn't uninstall ubuntu-desktop) in the seeds but have to wait with an upload of ubuntu-meta until after the beta is out (i don't want to interfere with the release today) note that this wont help much with xterm if you still want to keep a functional xserver, apt-cache rdepends xterm still shows a lot of essential packages hard depending on it, there should probably be a bug for this that has tasks for at least the xorg metapackage as well as xinit so the xorg guys can inspect if they can do the same. ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Chow Loong Jin hyper...@ubuntu.com wrote: I don't understand. Are you saying that you expect end users who don't know what a terminal is to know a terminal? I expect end users who don't know what a terminal is not to see fancy Apps like xterm and uxterm. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi On Mi, 2013-04-03 at 15:50 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Chow Loong Jin hyper...@ubuntu.com wrote: I don't understand. Are you saying that you expect end users who don't know what a terminal is to know a terminal? I expect end users who don't know what a terminal is not to see fancy Apps like xterm and uxterm. so you expect that a user that doesn't know what a terminal is to type terminal into the dash and be surprised to find a terminal ? i really don't get what this discussion is about, users not knowing about terminals will not search for them and thus not have them shown, users that *do* search for a terminal should get the option to use the installed terminals (including xterm and uxterm which many of our users like to use) through searching for them ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: so you expect that a user that doesn't know what a terminal is to type terminal into the dash and be surprised to find a terminal ? i really don't get what this discussion is about, users not knowing about terminals will not search for them and thus not have them shown, users that *do* search for a terminal should get the option to use the installed terminals (including xterm and uxterm which many of our users like to use) through searching for them ... Why you think they would type and search? It should be list all the Apps and try to find something interesting. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Mi, 2013-04-03 at 17:40 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: so you expect that a user that doesn't know what a terminal is to type terminal into the dash and be surprised to find a terminal ? i really don't get what this discussion is about, users not knowing about terminals will not search for them and thus not have them shown, users that *do* search for a terminal should get the option to use the installed terminals (including xterm and uxterm which many of our users like to use) through searching for them ... Why you think they would type and search? because this is how the unity dash works ? ciao oli PS: would it be possible for you to use the reply to list feature of your mail client, it is pretty annoying to answer you the way you break the thread currently (and i am subscribed to the list, there is no need to CC me) ... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: PS: would it be possible for you to use the reply to list feature of your mail client, it is pretty annoying to answer you the way you break the thread currently (and i am subscribed to the list, there is no need to CC me) ... I know Thunderbird has such feature. But I'm using Gmail Web... -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Mi, 2013-04-03 at 18:37 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: PS: would it be possible for you to use the reply to list feature of your mail client, it is pretty annoying to answer you the way you break the thread currently (and i am subscribed to the list, there is no need to CC me) ... I know Thunderbird has such feature. But I'm using Gmail Web... well, whatever you did now, it worked :) it is way more pleasant to answer you this way on a mailing list, thanks a lot ! ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
Am Mittwoch, den 03.04.2013, 13:03 +0200 schrieb Oliver Grawert: hi, On Mi, 2013-04-03 at 18:37 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: PS: would it be possible for you to use the reply to list feature of your mail client, it is pretty annoying to answer you the way you break the thread currently (and i am subscribed to the list, there is no need to CC me) ... I know Thunderbird has such feature. But I'm using Gmail Web... ... and over it was :-) Maybe gmail denied the rest of the game ... btw: I've never seen xirgendwas in my menues - lucky times back there without unity :-))) -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Ma Xiaojun damage3...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: xterm is used by many people doing development on ubuntu as a preferred terminal over gnome-terminal, so i dont think we can or should hide it if we don't want to put off people using ubuntu as a platform for their development tasks. Well, I know there are people have good reasons to prefer xterm over gnome-terminal. However, there are also plenty of people don't bother to know what is terminal in the their entire life. Though there doesn't seem to have a good solution to satisfy both groups. Sure there is. The TINY minority of people who know or care about xterm, and have a reason to prefer it over gnome-terminal (?!), can open it with Alt+F2 or, if they really are concerned about this, add their own launcher. (Heck, maybe an additional package could provide a desktop file with NoDisplay=False for the even tinier group of people who prefer xterm, use the dash to launch stuff, and don't want to use the menu editor?). Ubuntu right now has a ridiculous number of Applications installed by default, which makes the dash completely hostile for someone who wants to explore the functionality provided by Ubuntu. Right now, well over half of these Applications are cryptic settings panels and recovery tools that provide nothing of value to end users. Dylan -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Mi, 2013-04-03 at 09:25 -0700, Dylan McCall wrote: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Ma Xiaojun damage3...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: xterm is used by many people doing development on ubuntu as a preferred terminal over gnome-terminal, so i dont think we can or should hide it if we don't want to put off people using ubuntu as a platform for their development tasks. Well, I know there are people have good reasons to prefer xterm over gnome-terminal. However, there are also plenty of people don't bother to know what is terminal in the their entire life. Though there doesn't seem to have a good solution to satisfy both groups. Sure there is. The TINY minority of people who know or care about xterm, and have a reason to prefer it over gnome-terminal (?!), you are aware that this tiny minority is the remaining bit of contributing developers left from the once massive dev community we used to have ? we have driven many devs away and on the other side attracted a lot of new users which makes handling the bug load harder with every release. i totally agree that having the system settings and even each individual setting app in the dash is nonsense, but we are on the way to make ubuntu an unpleasant place for developers that want to develop ubuntu ... file a bug about Xorg hard depending on xterm and lets make it optional to install it but don't kill of developer tools for the tiny minority of devs we have left... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: you are aware that this tiny minority is the remaining bit of contributing developers left from the once massive dev community we used to have ? I have no idea whether number of contributing developers used to be larger or not. we have driven many devs away and on the other side attracted a lot of new users which makes handling the bug load harder with every release. i totally agree that having the system settings and even each individual setting app in the dash is nonsense, but we are on the way to make ubuntu an unpleasant place for developers that want to develop ubuntu ... But the argument is rather weird. Some people prefer xterm is definitely not equal to The same group of people will leave Ubuntu community if xterm is hidden by default. Cater developers is definitely not equal to Keep xterm shown I'd claim that some developers have stronger opinion about Amazon search stuff, etc. ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/webapps-applications/+bug/1079932 ) Anyway, Ubuntu is Linux for human being, rather than Linux for X11 wizard. For the settings app shown in Dash issue, it should be a very old and known bug, I feel that I must missed something. Isn't Unity supposed to be a corporate effort and the end result should be polished? ( I guess LinuxDeepin's UI can be an example of polished UI. ) file a bug about Xorg hard depending on xterm and lets make it optional to install it but don't kill of developer tools for the tiny minority of devs we have left... Have seen quite a log bug unanswered for long, reporting a bug isn't my first choice any more. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Do, 2013-04-04 at 03:10 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: you are aware that this tiny minority is the remaining bit of contributing developers left from the once massive dev community we used to have ? I have no idea whether number of contributing developers used to be larger or not. we have driven many devs away and on the other side attracted a lot of new users which makes handling the bug load harder with every release. i totally agree that having the system settings and even each individual setting app in the dash is nonsense, but we are on the way to make ubuntu an unpleasant place for developers that want to develop ubuntu ... But the argument is rather weird. Some people prefer xterm is definitely not equal to The same group of people will leave Ubuntu community if xterm is hidden by default. ... Anyway, Ubuntu is Linux for human beings, Developers are human beings too ;) and believe it or not, developers like to find their tools in the Dash if they search for them. I'm with you that xterm shouldn't be installed by default (though there are technical reasons it currently is that might or might bot be fixable, please file a bug for this). If a developer installed it please don't treat him as a second class person by completely hiding his tools from the mechanism that he is supposed to use to find them ... You wouldnt hide gVim, xEmacs, QTCreator or Eclipse either. Thats the only argument i'm making, lets not make Ubuntu an unpleasant place for developers by hiding their tools and drive them away from the distro due to feeling unwelcome. ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
There is a related bug already: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1116791 -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Di, 2013-04-02 at 12:03 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/ubuntu-desktop xdiagnose is used by apport, whoopsie and the Xorg failure mode. In case your graphics card fails it is used to do the reconfiguration to get you back on track. xterm is the default fallback tool built into X (if your display manager fails to start, no desktop is detected etc ... and you run startx you end up with an Xorg root window and an undecorated xterm ...) its a last resort fallback tool (and less than 300k big) ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
OK, the reasons make sense, but do we need to advertise them as Apps? -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
hi, On Di, 2013-04-02 at 16:45 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: OK, the reasons make sense, but do we need to advertise them as Apps? i think xdiagnose doesnt need to be shown in any menus (though that would be a matter of the maintainer (hey bryce !) to hop into this discussion and comment, i dont think the .desktop file was added just because it is shiny, there is surely a reason for it's existence) xterm is used by many people doing development on ubuntu as a preferred terminal over gnome-terminal, so i dont think we can or should hide it if we don't want to put off people using ubuntu as a platform for their development tasks. ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Oliver Grawert o...@ubuntu.com wrote: i think xdiagnose doesnt need to be shown in any menus (though that would be a matter of the maintainer (hey bryce !) to hop into this discussion and comment, i dont think the .desktop file was added just because it is shiny, there is surely a reason for it's existence) Got it. xterm is used by many people doing development on ubuntu as a preferred terminal over gnome-terminal, so i dont think we can or should hide it if we don't want to put off people using ubuntu as a platform for their development tasks. Well, I know there are people have good reasons to prefer xterm over gnome-terminal. However, there are also plenty of people don't bother to know what is terminal in the their entire life. Though there doesn't seem to have a good solution to satisfy both groups. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 10:55:48AM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: hi, On Di, 2013-04-02 at 16:45 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: OK, the reasons make sense, but do we need to advertise them as Apps? i think xdiagnose doesnt need to be shown in any menus (though that would be a matter of the maintainer (hey bryce !) to hop into this discussion and comment, i dont think the .desktop file was added just because it is shiny, there is surely a reason for it's existence) It doesn't need to be shown in the menus, no. Bryce -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
It seems like we need an easy way of show/hide App icons. Then we can hide useless icon for end users while don't bother advanced users too much. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On 04/02/2013 10:36 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote: It seems like we need an easy way of show/hide App icons. Then we can hide useless icon for end users while don't bother advanced users too much. There already is - NoDisplay=true file a bug on apps/sources in question -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
(Sorry forgot reply list) Sure I know what is a .desktop file. But can we do per-user show/hide? -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On 2 April 2013 23:05, Doug McMahon mc631...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/02/2013 10:36 PM, Ma Xiaojun wrote: It seems like we need an easy way of show/hide App icons. Then we can hide useless icon for end users while don't bother advanced users too much. There already is - NoDisplay=true file a bug on apps/sources in question The tracking bug for hiding xterm is bug 129041. I went ahead and made this change for Ubuntu GNOME but I don't think there's been sufficient consensus yet for this to be done in the regular Ubuntu image. Jeremy -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On 2 April 2013 23:13, Ma Xiaojun damage3...@gmail.com wrote: Sure I know what is a .desktop file. But can we do per-user show/hide? Install alacarte and then just uncheck the apps you don't want to see in the menus. Jeremy -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Jeremy Bicha jer...@bicha.net wrote: Install alacarte and then just uncheck the apps you don't want to see in the menus. So I can expect end users do not know what a terminal is to know this software? -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
On 03/04/2013 13:21, Ma Xiaojun wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Jeremy Bicha jer...@bicha.net wrote: Install alacarte and then just uncheck the apps you don't want to see in the menus. So I can expect end users do not know what a terminal is to know this software? I don't understand. Are you saying that you expect end users who don't know what a terminal is to know a terminal? -- Kind regards, Loong Jin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Why ubuntu-desktop depends on xdiagnose and xterm
http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/ubuntu-desktop That sounds weird. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
