Re: Let's Discuss Interim Releases (and a Rolling Release)
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:31:49 +0100, Rick Spencer rick.spen...@canonical.com wrote: = tl;dr = Ubuntu has an amazing opportunity in the next 7-8 months to deliver a Phone OS that will be widely adopted by users and industry while also putting into place the foundation for a truly converged OS. To succeed at this we will need both velocity and agility. Therefore, I am starting a discussion about dropping non-LTS releases and move to a rolling release plus LTS releases right now. I think what the community is concerned about (flavors, devs and users) is stability, and the ability to influence the quality of the releases. There aught to many ways to achieve this. Here are three points I'd like to make on behalf of Ubuntu Studio * Have more than one layer, repo-wise, making sure a non-devel rolling release is less agressively updated. Particularly some system critical packages can cause a lot of pain, if they present regressions/bugs, such as the kernel, core system libs and graphics related things. A more experimental repo could be used for the developers, and act as a buffer for the stable repo. This is not news, Debian does something like this, and I suppose it is just a smart way to go about things. * Flavors will want to have some influence in what is accepted into a stable-ish rolling release repo. That may actually not be a big amount of packages in the end, if they are fine to publish, but I can't speak for all the flavors, or other interest holders. Ubuntu Studio is dependant on Xubuntu for the desktop, while itself mostly focused on multimedia packages, and possibly most of those packages aren't important for anyone but Ubuntu Studio and their kind of user base - as an example. * I've yet to understand the benefit of monthly shapshots. If Ubuntu wants monthly's, I could imagine other flavors wants their own custom snapshots. The ability to make custom releases, which are quite useful, especially for a live media. And, as has been stated, a user could turn off anything but security updates, so a snapshot does fill a purpose. A snapshot would then be a planned mini-release. -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Security Support - Re: Let's Discuss Interim Releases (and a Rolling Release)
Colin Watson [2013-03-01 16:49 +]: While I think monthly image releases make sense, I don't personally like the notion of monthly updates at all FWIW, I fully agree, I was just contemplating how we would implement it in the easiest possible manner should we have to do it at all. I would really like hear about some significant user group who would actually use those; if we create them proactively without much demand we just have replaced a big release every 6 months with six smaller releases every month, which feels like we want a RR, but not really. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Avoiding fragmentation with a rolling release
Loïc Minier [2013-03-01 12:10 +0100]: I don't think we can make any commitment against all of Ubuntu or all of main, but we could pick a subset by product and commit to some level of API and ABI support for this subset. I still disagree. A few years ago we heavily promoted quickly+pygtk2 as THE app dev platform, only to deprecate it about a year later when gobject-introspection and GTK3 came along. After that has caught on for a while, we are now telling people forget about GTK, use Qt/QML as app dev API. The former was already on the horizon at that time, and we were fully responsible for the latter by ourselves. Who knows what the app dev API du jour will be after 14.04? It's not totally inconceivable that we'll go back to e. g. GI and JavaScript, as upstream GNOME currently intends to do, or even to different APIs that are being used by other OSes (Android, FirefoxOS, and the like). We shouldn't make promises which we cannot guarantee to hold, so let's rather be clear and say this is the API for *this* LTS. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Ubuntu Developer Summits Now Online and Every Three Months
Hello Allison, On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:54:39 -0800, Allison Randal wrote: - There are a lot of people I really like, who I only see at UDS. I have a very real sense of grief at will I ever see so-and-so again? It's certainly not Canonical's job to pay for my social life. :) But, it's important to me, enough to be willing to invest effort in making sure that doesn't happen. I totally agree with what you said before but I just want to react about that: It's maybe a bit stupid but I'm following a course called 'Human Management' (ok, I was forced to follow it :) ) and it seems that these events which are not only focused to the job itself (like Team Building events ; so I guess like UDS too) are important for workers like what Canonical employees (that are doing jobs in team and which have many skills and responsibilities). It's important because it increases the productivity for months that follow the event (maybe not that much than other companies because I'm sure that most Canonical's employees love what they are doing) because it's useful to improve relationship between colleagues. I just hope that Canonical's employees and community members will not be too frustrated to no longer have this nice moments together. (But I guess people behind this decision know all of that and it was not easy to take such decisions, I understand) About the community, I think events like UDS are important for them too. I was at the UDS-M (but only one day and I regret that...) and it was really great. I met a lot of people, talk about things with Canonical's employees, etc. After this event, I wanted to do more work for Ubuntu. I tried to participate to other UDS online but it was really not the same... it's almost impossible for me to write in English as fast as people talk during the event (and as you can see my English is far to be perfect...). It was not easy to ask all my questions and I'm quite sure that people reacts differently if you talk to him AFK. In conclusion, I hope that I'm wrong about that and this new virtual UDS will be better than before :) Have a nice day, Matt signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Let's Discuss Interim Releases (and a Rolling Release)
On Fri, 2013-03-01 at 16:52 +, Colin Watson wrote: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 12:12:34PM -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: Long gone are the days where a `apt-get upgrade` has broken my system (knock on wood) and while I do inspect dist-upgrades a little more carefully, they are usually pretty reliable too. FWIW, I have come to believe that nobody should use 'apt-get upgrade' as a general rule. In particular, since it tries its best to install as much as it can under the constraint that it never installs new packages or removes installed ones, it will carry merrily on without installing any new Recommends introduced by the upgrade set, and you will never hear about them again unless some other package starts recommending the same target packages. Just using 'apt-get dist-upgrade' all the time, or something with closer semantics to that, is better. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] Oh, then you've fixed the issue where dist-upgrade removes packages due to unmet dependencies (aka pool churn)? dist-upgrade should only be used within a release, not during development (your words a few years ago). I quit tracking the Ubuntu daily builds shortly after 12.04 release (Canonical people know why). Have the issues of missing dependencies been resolved during library update induced pool churn? Have the issues of systems not booting due to lack of 3D driver support been addressed? These are serious issues, and frankly I haven't seen any progress to indicate otherwise. Tobin Davis One Architecture, One OS also translates as One Egg, One Basket. -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Let's Discuss Interim Releases (and a Rolling Release)
On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 10:34:25PM -0800, Tobin Davis wrote: On Fri, 2013-03-01 at 16:52 +, Colin Watson wrote: Just using 'apt-get dist-upgrade' all the time, or something with closer semantics to that, is better. Oh, then you've fixed the issue where dist-upgrade removes packages due to unmet dependencies (aka pool churn)? Yes, in the vast majority of cases: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-October/036043.html This is a major part of what Rick is referring to in shorthand as daily quality, which has been a big push since 12.04. These are serious issues, and frankly I haven't seen any progress to indicate otherwise. I'm surprised, because when I hunt around for people talking about their experiences running raring I've generally found them favourably contrasting its stability with that of prior development releases. Indeed I hear that one group (the French loco, was it?) started referring to it as boring, which IMO is an excellent result. :-) (One problem I've occasionally seen, and I debugged an instance of this just yesterday, is that some people who've taken part in verifying SRUs on earlier Ubuntu releases and who've then upgraded to raring still sometimes have -proposed enabled. In such cases people are NOT insulated from what you refer to as pool churn. The right fix here is just to disable raring-proposed, which is not intended for use by humans.) -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Ubuntu Developer Summits Now Online and Every Three Months
On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 04:53:58PM -0500, Michael Hall wrote: 14:00 - 20:00 UTC actually Right - it got updated for a third time after I posted. I think the canonical location is http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/ -- Iain Lane [ i...@orangesquash.org.uk ] Debian Developer [ la...@debian.org ] Ubuntu Developer [ la...@ubuntu.com ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Let's Discuss Interim Releases (and a Rolling Release)
On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 07:16:58PM +0100, Philip Muskovac wrote: Let me add that due to https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1077116 (automoc4 crashes in qemu-virtualized armhf) Kubuntu doesn't have any *usable* armhf PPA builders right now as KDE software doesn't compile in qemu. FWIW, a week or two ago I raised an escalation request with Linaro on behalf of Canonical to have more time spent on maintaining qemu's user mode (and I know the engineers at the other end are receptive to this). Assuming this is accepted, I'll make sure this bug is on the list. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
