Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Hi Sebastien, On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:04:14 +0100 Sebastien Bacher sebastien.bac...@canonical.com wrote: Did we loose our indicator in the ibus 1.4-1.5 transition? We should add it back in that's the case, yes This is the dropped patch. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/saucy/ibus/saucy/revision/56#debian/patches/05_appindicator.patch That's a topic that is going to be discussed at vUDS next week: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21984/desktop-1311-default-imf-review/ I see. Many Japanese users dislike IBus 1.5. Some Japanese users say it is a crap. Of course I don't think so. Such users switch to Fcitx or uim which is default input method on Debian. Fcitx(fcitx and fcitx-mozc) is well-worked, well-translated for Japanese users. IBus 1.5 is not bad. But I found some issues. If these problems will be fixed, IBus 1.5 will make better than now hopefully. Thanks, -- AWASHIRO Ikuya ik...@fruitsbasket.info / ik...@oooug.jp / iku...@gmail.com GPG fingerprint: 1A19 AD66 C53F 2250 3537 1A9D 3A53 2C1D 20AB CC8A -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Hi Sebastien, On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:02:11 +0100 Sebastien Bacher sebastien.bac...@canonical.com wrote: - we stop using our new keyboard indicator/get back to an UI which is not what our design document recommend What does it mean? * Someone will write indicator patch for IBus 1.5. * We use IBus embedded icon on Unity. * We switch back to IBus 1.4. * We switch to Fcitx from IBus. * or another idea? Regards, -- AWASHIRO Ikuya ik...@fruitsbasket.info / ik...@oooug.jp / iku...@gmail.com GPG fingerprint: 1A19 AD66 C53F 2250 3537 1A9D 3A53 2C1D 20AB CC8A -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Hi, Le 13/11/2013 13:40, AWASHIRO Ikuya a écrit : What does it mean? * Someone will write indicator patch for IBus 1.5. Did we loose our indicator in the ibus 1.4-1.5 transition? We should add it back in that's the case, yes * We use IBus embedded icon on Unity. * We switch back to IBus 1.4. Those are not likely to happen no * We switch to Fcitx from IBus. That's a topic that is going to be discussed at vUDS next week: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21984/desktop-1311-default-imf-review/ Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Le 12/11/2013 17:55, Gunnar Hjalmarsson a écrit : Possibly a solution worth exploring for the Unity LTS. Hey Gunnar, Thanks for the suggestion. I would prefer avoiding trying a new solution though, especially during a LTS cycle. We have basically 2 options we experimented with, it would make sense to just go with one of those... Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013, Sebastien Bacher wrote: * keep pushing forward to try to solve those issues (e.g move the keygrabbing to compiz, look at where we stand there). That should give us a mostly working system, but: - it means increasing changes before a LTS, which has potential to create new issues - we are not sure that applications are going to be fixed before the LTS, and how much of an annoyance that's going to be for our users - we are spending more efforts on trying to fix things for Unity7/xorg, for a problem that is going to go away with Unity8/Mir (things are going to work differently under Mir/wayland) How will the Mir/Wayland approach look like? Could we leverage it for Unity 7? * roll back to what we had until 13.04 We can't ship Unity 8 in the desktop for 14.04 due to the dependency on Mir, so since we picked the ship known good / stable stack in 14.04 desktop approach, it would be consistent to pick the good / stable old way of switching keyboard layouts and handling shortcuts -- unless it's a lot of work to rollback, in comparison to moving to the new world. From a risk point of view, the second option seems like the safest one, but from an efforts point of view this depends on how much work it is to produce an Unity 8 image with a new keyboard layouts / shortcuts solution + finding a solution for Ubuntu Desktop. -- Loïc Minier -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Le 13/11/2013 17:49, Loïc Minier a écrit : How will the Mir/Wayland approach look like? Could we leverage it for Unity 7? I expect the approach in the new world to be similar to the recent work. It should be easier under Mir/Wayland since we are not going to have to fight with X grabs and xkb limitations there (e.g Mir should be watching for those events and sending the signal to do the action associated to the keybinding). That's a topic that should be discussed with the Mir/Unity8 though ... do you know if that's on the roadmap for this cycle (handling of external keyboards and layouts/input methods/keybindings on the desktop)? unless it's a lot of work to rollback, in comparison to moving to the new world. Well, we are almost done with the work we have been doing. The issue is that we are hitting the problems I listed, especially the ones with apps like libreoffice that require to fix the applications. I expect applications are not going to be an issue in touch because there is less legacy and the ones newly written or using the standard toolkits shouldn't have those issues. Rollback is not that much work in any case. From a risk point of view, the second option seems like the safest one, but from an efforts point of view this depends on how much work it is to produce an Unity 8 image with a new keyboard layouts / shortcuts solution + finding a solution for Ubuntu Desktop. The solutions are going to be different in both setups (since the input stack used is not the same), it also depends on the input method framework we are going to use (there is still the ongoing ibus or fcitx discussion, with a session at vUDS next week) Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Sebastien Bacher wrote: That's a topic that should be discussed with the Mir/Unity8 though ... do you know if that's on the roadmap for this cycle (handling of external keyboards and layouts/input methods/keybindings on the desktop)? (I don't know whether this is on the roadmap) -- Loïc Minier -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Hey everyone, I'm writing this email to get some input on how we should handle keyboard layouts/emails for the LTS. === Summary === In Ubuntu 13.10 we followed GNOME changes on how keyboard layouts and input methods are handle. Some of you probably noticed that things didn't go flawlessly there. While some of the issues after been addressed through SRUs, and some others are understood/being worked, we are still looking at what would be the best option for the LTS. === Some details on the changes === (feel free to skip if you are not interested in those) Disclamer: I'm trying to provide a summary based on my understanding of the situation, feel free to correct me if some of the things I write are wrong (which wouldn't be surprising, I don't claim knowing the topic well, I've just been trying to understand the current situation to see how we resolve it) * Before Ubuntu 13.10: - keyboard layouts and input methods were handled separatly - gnome-control-center and gnome-settings daemon were handling the keyboard layouts only (GUI to configure the layout and the key to cycle through them, indicator to change the active layout) - ibus was handling the input methods (different configuration UI, indicator) - cycling through layout was done through Xorg group cycle (e.g GNOME was defining the change layout key and telling xorg), the default combinaison being alt-shift - cycling through input method was done through ibus, using a different keybinding * Since Ubuntu 13.10 - GNOME merged both concepts to provide an unified experience [1] (trying to clean the old codebase/stack which was hackish and xorg specific, improving the user experience as well) - we have been holding on those changes for several cycles but decided to try to deal with that in 13.10, since it was the cycle before the LTS and seemed the right time to try - we followed the Ubuntu design on [2] for the UI - gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-control-center handle both layouts and input methods - there is only one list of input sources, one indicator, one keybinding to cycle - since the keybinding is changing both ibus and xkb configurations, we can't use xorg directly to do the cycle, we need to grab the keys on the client side and act from the shell/gnome-settings-daemon (the grabbing is creating some of the issues) - the way the xkb configure is done changed, we used to have all configured layouts active (which limited the list to 4 of those), now there is only one at time (that creates issues for some clients like libreoffice and make keybinding not work anymore in non-latin keymaps [2]) That's basically a summary of the situation === Issues in 13.10 === We released 13.10 with the new components: - indicator-keyboard replacing the old gnome-settings-daemon-hacked indicator - gnome-settings-daemon using the GNOME 3.8 upstream code to handle input sources - gnome-control-center having a custom version of the configuration UI based on our design document Things seem to be mostly working, from our testing ... it turned out they were not working so great as [3] shows. * Trying to do a summary of the issues we found: - the control center UI wouldn't take a new keybinding - that was fixed in a SRU - using modifier only keys didn't work - that was fixed in a SRU (but with side effect) - some keys are not working (e.g setting capslock for layout cycling) - setting modifier only keys leads to issues where the keys can't be used in applications anymore, e.g if ctrl-shift is used for input switching, you can't use ctrl-shift-del in firefox - that issue happen because we still grab the keys from gnome-settings-daemon, GNOME resolved the problem by making gnome-shell do the grabbing, we are looking at doing the same under Unity - when nextgrp: was defined by xorg the key couldn't be reused, that was an upstream GNOME issue and we backported a patch to fix it [4] (which basically unset that option on start) - super-space, which is the new default keybinding to cycle input source doesn't work well - there was a conflict with ibus using the same binding (that's being changed), super is also used by unity and lead to issues where the keys usage summary screen gets displayed when trying to change layout - standard keybindings don't work in non-latin keymaps in e.g libreoffice (and probably other softwares). See [5] for details, basically the way xkb groups are handled now is different and libreoffice needs to be fixed to look for matching keys in other groups (GTK/Qt do that so it works for most applications, not sure what out of libreoffice has the issue ... likely things using their own toolkit (eclipse seems to have it as well) === What do we do for the LTS === So basically we are still looking at fixing some of the issues (especial gnome-settings-daemon eating the modifiers which leads to keybindings not working in applications then). Once those fixes are in we are let with
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
Le 12/11/2013 16:02, Sebastien Bacher a écrit : - it means basically adding back revert patches to gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-control-center, that's not really elegant but we had those until previous cycle and it was working Seems I forgot to add a note there ... we already have plans to have a second version of those packages in the archive for Unity (that's going to unblock some GNOME remix work), which means the revert would be Unity specific and not create issues for gnome-shell users Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: Handling of layout/input methods in Unity: what should we do for the LTS?
On 2013-11-12 16:02, Sebastien Bacher wrote: snip * Since Ubuntu 13.10 - GNOME merged both concepts to provide an unified experience [1] Xubuntu 13.10 integrates keyboard layouts and input methods using IBus. Probably the GNOME changes haven't much to do with it; maybe IBus 1.5 has. Anyway, via the IBus indicator I can easily switch between English (US), Swedish, Chinese, and Korean. Haven't tested shortcuts, though. Possibly a solution worth exploring for the Unity LTS. -- Gunnar Hjalmarsson https://launchpad.net/~gunnarhj -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
