Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager dwelling
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Ramaddan wrote: > Sorry, I had one of my own built packages working, so I did not notice it > was present in the Natty repo when I upgraded. > > Does it mean that if certain updates and changes were made to work on the > Unity bar, it will also reach Natty, since it is already in the repo? > > Or will it have to go through backports, since the repo is frozen, and it > will probably be a version update? Backports. There are two bug reports (well, one's a duplicate of the other, but I don't have my Keepass DB here to login to Launchpad and fix it) in Launchpad for Florence about it failing to upgrade from 10.10 to 11.04 because of the /usr/bin/florence-applet existing in both florence and florence-apple. I'm guessing the packages people were using in 10.10 were non-Ubuntu-repo ones since it wasn't in 10.10 and I can just close those? -- Mackenzie Morgan -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
On 05/06/2011 08:20 PM, Francesco Fumanti wrote: > Sorry, I am not attending UDS. Not sure if you are aware, but you can participate remotely at UDS, see: http://uds.ubuntu.com/participate/remote/ The LightDM session is on Thursday 12th, at 1200 Hungary time (http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-o/2011-05-12/). --Robert -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
On 07/05/11 19:46, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Alan Bell wrote: One current challenge is getting the keyboard to type into the unity-3d interface (works fine in unity-2d) and this is mostly a unity issue although I wouldn't discount the possibility that some integration might need to touch the keyboard (things like the keyboard not zooming in and out with compiz zoom). I'm told a patch exists for this. I guess that means the SRU hasn't gone through yet? nope, and neither has the one with the colours and fonts for onboard -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager dwelling
Hi, Great :-) Sorry, I had one of my own built packages working, so I did not notice it was present in the Natty repo when I upgraded. Does it mean that if certain updates and changes were made to work on the Unity bar, it will also reach Natty, since it is already in the repo? Or will it have to go through backports, since the repo is frozen, and it will probably be a version update? Thanks Regards, Ramaddan wrote on 7 May 2011, 03:00 PM: Subject: ubuntu-devel Digest, Vol 81, Issue 10 >Send ubuntu-devel mailing list submissions to > ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ubuntu-devel-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > ubuntu-devel-ow...@lists.ubuntu.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of ubuntu-devel digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager dwelling > (Oliver Grawert) > > >-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 11:31:45 +0200 >From: Oliver Grawert >To: ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >Subject: Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager dwelling >Message-ID: <1304760705.12448.1.camel@osiris> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > >hi, >Am Freitag, den 06.05.2011, 23:31 + schrieb Ramaddan: >> One of my trials was on a Tablet PC which I have been using for a >> while, and I have not liked any of the on board keyboards available, >> except for one: >> http://florence.sourceforge.net/english.html >> >> I have always wanted it to be included in Ubuntu, but it never came >> round to that. >florence is packaged and in universe in 11.04 ... > >ciao > oli > > > > >-- > >-- >ubuntu-devel mailing list >ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com >Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel > > >End of ubuntu-devel Digest, Vol 81, Issue 10 > > --- Send big files for free. Simple steps. No registration. Visit now http://www.nawelny.com -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Alan Bell wrote: > One current challenge is getting the keyboard to type into the > unity-3d interface (works fine in unity-2d) and this is mostly a unity issue > although I wouldn't discount the possibility that some integration might > need to touch the keyboard (things like the keyboard not zooming in and out > with compiz zoom). I'm told a patch exists for this. I guess that means the SRU hasn't gone through yet? -- Mackenzie Morgan -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager dwelling
hi, Am Freitag, den 06.05.2011, 23:31 + schrieb Ramaddan: > One of my trials was on a Tablet PC which I have been using for a > while, and I have not liked any of the on board keyboards available, > except for one: > http://florence.sourceforge.net/english.html > > I have always wanted it to be included in Ubuntu, but it never came > round to that. florence is packaged and in universe in 11.04 ... ciao oli -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager dwelling
Actually, it made it into universe for natty. And it should be set up to build when updated. On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 23:31 +, Ramaddan wrote: > Hi, > > I have been using Ubuntu fulltime for years now, and have not gone > back. > > I also tried to take part in developing, but never really had time to > properly mature in that, so instead, I used to try and tweak lots of > programs on my system. > > One of my trials was on a Tablet PC which I have been using for a > while, and I have not liked any of the on board keyboards available, > except for one: > http://florence.sourceforge.net/english.html > > I have always wanted it to be included in Ubuntu, but it never came > round to that. > > I have however had a good relationship with the developer, and he kept > it always up to date to work on Ubuntu, and I always tested it and > gave him back feedback, to which he promptly replied and updated the > code. > > > > I like the capability to make the keyboard as transparent as needed, > and the fact it comes up upon trying to type text, as well as some > other very nice features for a tablet. > > > I had only one problem with it, which was when Firefox would suggest > links, which would go over the keyboard, so I wold disable the firefox > suggestion feature. > > > I have used it for all my work on the Tablet, and set up onboard > keyboard for login in and to log in when the PC locked, but I'm sure > with integration, this could also replace onboard completely, but > requires a bit of help from the DEV team to the developer. > > > I upgraded to Natty recently, and I noticed that it was not easy to > use access the Florence keybaord anymore, due to the change done to > the Task bar at the top (although I could make the hover icon appear, > but I personally don't like it). > > > So I thought to myself that I can probably contact the developer again > to update for this change, but I got kind of shy :-) > > > Everytime he updates for the changes, but florence is still not in the > repo nor supported, and I promised him before that I will push this > through, and I did try, but it never happened. > > > So I thought to myself that maybe instead of of once again asking him > to update and make changes, if I could get anyone from the DEV group > to try the software out, and tell use what they think. > > > I honestly think it is the best out there so far, and many people who > tried my Tablet agree with this. > > > Onboard is just too incumbent and the transparency feature is not > there, and thus covers the screen all the time, and on Tablets, the > screen space is essential to be free. > > > Also, I noticed that the keyboard does not show up with pressing the > top left button to show quick program and search, etc. > > > > I hope to hear what people think after they try it. > > > > Regards, > Ramaddan > > > wrote on 7 May 2011, 01:47 AM: > Subject: ubuntu-devel Digest, Vol 81, Issue 7 > >Send ubuntu-devel mailing list submissions to > > ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > ubuntu-devel-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > ubuntu-devel-ow...@lists.ubuntu.com > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of ubuntu-devel digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - > > dwelling (Alan Bell) > > 2. Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - > > dwelling (Francesco Fumanti) > > 3. systemd for 11.10 ? (Thomas Bechtold) > > 4. UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling > > (Francesco Fumanti) > > 5. Ideas for the icon panel and menu behaviour (Shane.Nuessler) > > > > > >-- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:05:55 +0100 > >From: Alan Bell > >To: Francesco Fumanti > >Cc: Charlie Kravetz , Ubuntu Devel list > > , Penelope Stowe , > > robert.anc...@ubuntu.com, marmuta , Luke > > Yelavich , Alan Bell <"alanbell"@ubuntu.com> > >Subject: Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - > > dwelling > >Message-ID: <4dc30323.9030...@ubuntu.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
Hi Alan, Thanks for your reply. On 05.05.2011 22:05, Alan Bell wrote: Hi Francesco, thanks for the email, that was informative and timely. 1) The discussions around different options came about because of a suggestion from the upstream Gnome accessibility team that we should consider using the 'official' gnome on-screen keyboard which is now Caribou. So far I have been unable to install caribou and I am not sure what it's good features are really. I think there should be one keyboard that serves as an accessibility tool, is the keyboard for tablets and touchscreens (including multitouch), looks good and can be used for innovative layouts such as the steno chording layout. That would be the ideal situation, but I wonder whether it is possible to achieve it. I remember the situation with the onscreen keyboard GOK. It seemed to be targeted mainly at switch users and that fonctionality was hindering pointer users to have a smooth experience with it. Moreover, GOK had a lot of options; do we really want to confront pointer users with options they do not need or do not even understand? You might reply that it might be possible to hide options according to its usage; but that will probably not be easy; especially if we also want a zeroconf onscreen keyboard. By the way, what is the steno chording layout? One current challenge is getting the keyboard to type into the unity-3d interface (works fine in unity-2d) and this is mostly a unity issue although I wouldn't discount the possibility that some integration might need to touch the keyboard (things like the keyboard not zooming in and out with compiz zoom). Yesterday, I wrote an email to the ayatana dev mailing list about the issue, but have not got any reply yet. I wonder whether it arrived at destination as it seems to be a dev only mailing list. marmuta, the person who has done most of the development lately on onboard has a bit of time at the moment for onboard. Do you know who we should contact in order to solve the issue? 2) Does this mean that LightDM is going to replace GDM? no, it means the possibility is going to be discussed at UDS. A lot of things get discussed and sometimes we decide not to do them - or maybe decide to revisit the possibility some releases later. Does anybody of the accessibility team attend these discussions in order to make sure that the accessibility aspects are also taken care of? 3) that is a good point and some interesting suggestions, we already know it is too hard to start onboard without the use of a hard keyboard, The onboard source package shipped with desktop files that would make onboard appear under the Universal Access menu. However, when packaged to create the deb, the source was always patched in order to have the Universal Access menu hidden by default. I have not investigated yet, but since Unity, that changed the method of launching applications, this might not be necessary anymore. it would be ideal if dwelling could be turned on without clicking. (still not quite as bad as asking people to press space when they see the icon at the start of the installer to get to the screen reader install) I would say both situations are quite bad for the affected users. A real dwell user normally is not able to click; thus we cannot count on him to produce a click with some hardware device to enable dwelling (dwelling=automatic clicking after a timeout). That is why I propose an item that itself reacts on dwelling to start the dwelling feature. The dwell applet for the gnome-panel had such an item, but as I already mentioned in my previous email, it was only a partial solution. Indeed: - It was a solution only for the desktop session, not for the login screen. (On computers with only one user, a work around was to enable automatic login.) - It was not a solution out of the box, as somebody able to click by hardware had to install the dwell applet on the panel, before a dwell user could use it. For the sake of completness, the old GDM offered another approach to start some accessibility tools at the login screen: the user had to perform specific gestures with the pointer on the screen and depending on the gesture, a determined accessibility tool was started.This is not a good solution in my opinion, because there is no clue on the screen about the gesture feature and also no information about what gestures to perform. We are far away from an intuitive and obvious solution here. Cheers, Francesco -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
Hi Robert, Thanks for your reply. On 06.05.2011 07:52, Robert Ancell wrote: On 05/05/2011 06:55 PM, Francesco Fumanti wrote: 2) Display manager I have come accross the following blueprint for oneiric: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-lightdm Does this mean that LightDM is going to replace GDM? That is my proposal. The decision will be made at UDS, however at the last UDS there seemed good support for it (I delayed the use due to Unity last cycle) so I am hopeful that people will agree it is worth changing to. So chances might be good for it to be adopted. I just ran a test session in natty where I replaced GDM with the LightDM display manager available in the repository, but I did not get beyond the login screen, because there was no explicit way to enable an onscreen keyboard... Thanks for testing. a11y is a high priority requirement for LightDM and I'm looking for requirements. If you're able to attend the UDS session that would be awesome as I need experienced a11y people to give me a list of requirements and good feedback. Sorry, I am not attending UDS. Concerning the implementation of the accessibility features, I suppose that the best will be to have contact with several people in order to cover the different kinds of accessibility needs. As a pointer only user, I can tell you how I imagine things for people that control the computer with only a mouse (with and without a hardware button to click). Unfortunately, I can't help you with the accessibility features needed by switch users, or visually, auditive or cognitive impaired users. Recently, I read the following on a gnome list: the other of that email (I do not know him) might be of some help concerning switch access. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2011-May/msg0.html And last, but not least:the Accessibility Team of Ubuntu... There is already a little menu to increase the font size and set a high contrast. Thus, I would like to ask whether this menu could not be enhanced with more accessibility features; maybe also turning it into a dialog. A starting point might be the accessibility features available in the GDM accessibility dialog. Absolutely. The current implementation is very basic, and any new login screen that would be released in Ubuntu will require a design and these features implemented. Great,:-) Cheers, Francesco -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
Hi Francesco, thanks for the email, that was informative and timely. 1) The discussions around different options came about because of a suggestion from the upstream Gnome accessibility team that we should consider using the 'official' gnome on-screen keyboard which is now Caribou. So far I have been unable to install caribou and I am not sure what it's good features are really. I think there should be one keyboard that serves as an accessibility tool, is the keyboard for tablets and touchscreens (including multitouch), looks good and can be used for innovative layouts such as the steno chording layout. One current challenge is getting the keyboard to type into the unity-3d interface (works fine in unity-2d) and this is mostly a unity issue although I wouldn't discount the possibility that some integration might need to touch the keyboard (things like the keyboard not zooming in and out with compiz zoom). 2) > Does this mean that LightDM is going to replace GDM? no, it means the possibility is going to be discussed at UDS. A lot of things get discussed and sometimes we decide not to do them - or maybe decide to revisit the possibility some releases later. 3) that is a good point and some interesting suggestions, we already know it is too hard to start onboard without the use of a hard keyboard, it would be ideal if dwelling could be turned on without clicking. (still not quite as bad as asking people to press space when they see the icon at the start of the installer to get to the screen reader install) Alan. -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: UDS-O About onscreen keyboard - display manager - dwelling
On 05/05/2011 06:55 PM, Francesco Fumanti wrote: > 2) Display manager > > I have come accross the following blueprint for oneiric: > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-lightdm > > Does this mean that LightDM is going to replace GDM? That is my proposal. The decision will be made at UDS, however at the last UDS there seemed good support for it (I delayed the use due to Unity last cycle) so I am hopeful that people will agree it is worth changing to. > > I just ran a test session in natty where I replaced GDM with the > LightDM display manager available in the repository, but I did not get > beyond the login screen, because there was no explicit way to enable > an onscreen keyboard... Thanks for testing. a11y is a high priority requirement for LightDM and I'm looking for requirements. If you're able to attend the UDS session that would be awesome as I need experienced a11y people to give me a list of requirements and good feedback. > > There is already a little menu to increase the font size and set a > high contrast. Thus, I would like to ask whether this menu could not > be enhanced with more accessibility features; maybe also turning it > into a dialog. A starting point might be the accessibility features > available in the GDM accessibility dialog. Absolutely. The current implementation is very basic, and any new login screen that would be released in Ubuntu will require a design and these features implemented. Thanks Francesco! -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
