New spec: Configuration files upgrades made easier
This is to inform you of a new specification, beginning to be drafted: Configuration files upgrades made easier Summary: When upgrading a package for which you have made changes, intelligently merge old configuration file, with the new one, rather then choosing the old one or the new one. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Configuration_files_upgrades_made_easier/ The best way to comment this spec, is to edit: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Configuration_files_upgrades_discussion Thanks. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Our best foot forward
Am Sonntag, den 18.11.2007, 08:34 -0500 schrieb Patrick: I see it now. I never noticed it there. Is there any reason it cannot also be placed under the right click too?-Patrick I don't think that this is a very often needed feature. We want to keep the menu short. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Our best foot forward
I spent several hours last week writing emails regarding making improvements to how packages are configured and how tutorials are done. I realize now that writing helper scripts that would be a hybrid of an installation script and a tutorial might not be the best way to get the job done. It would be much better if the configure option would take care of this and perhaps the help and support area search results provided specific links to useful Ubuntu specific online information. I am disappointed that my efforts have come to nothing. I would recommend more useablility studies to determine whether the present set up is actually being found and utilized. I doubt that Ubuntu's/Linux's best features are being put forward. I suspect they are only being found by those who are willing to dig around on the net for hours and willing to read trough terse MAN pages. Good Bye-Patrick Sebastian Heinlein wrote: Am Sonntag, den 18.11.2007, 08:34 -0500 schrieb Patrick: I see it now. I never noticed it there. Is there any reason it cannot also be placed under the right click too?-Patrick I don't think that this is a very often needed feature. We want to keep the menu short. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Our best foot forward
-Ubuntu documentation is so much better then it used to be, I don't think it is lacking in terms of the casual user. -I am not having trouble searching for documentation. -These usability tests are nice but not quite applicable to the concerns I have. I have been writing to this list because I want to help. The last think I want to do is hurt anyones feeling or discourage anyone but I have some constructive criticism. I love Ubuntu and I can use it quite well now but here again are some experiences and thoughts. I had a lot of trouble configuring services in the past, in particular my first one vsftpd, was hard as it was my first manual edit of a configuration file. I can now edit all kinds of these files. It's easy once you do one, an 8 year old could do this. The problem is it's not obvious to the first time user. I could carry out usability studies with friends and family but really I don't think anyone is ready to set up an nfs, ftp or samba server in the first 10-20 hours. A usability study beyond a few hours is not practical for family and friends. Here is the thing and I don't mean to be rude but what is it that Ubuntu is expected to be used for. Emailing and surfing the net? writing text documents? If this is all someone wants why would they take the time to learn Ubuntu. Learning a new OS is really time consuming. We are not just competing with Vista but with every Windows version from let's say Windows 98 onwards. Ubuntu is free but if someone wants to set up a new computer then they are very likely to be able to get a hold of an old Windows version, legal or not for free too. With Windows 98 you could still set up thunderbird, firefox, gimp, blender, open office, etc etc. Why bother with Ubuntu if you just want some basic stuff. You will likely have family members who can help you with Windows problems, you probably have experience with it somewhere else and you are less likely to run into hardware problems and filetype problems like flash. When the world of the online desktop arrives these programs will become even more irrelevant. If this is the market we are chasing then this is a big problem. The thing is Ubuntu is so much more then a way to surf the net and answer emails. Comparing Windows to Ubuntu is like comparing a glossy pamphlet to an encyclopedia with the front cover torn off. Ubuntu has content but it is not easy to find. There is enormous power in it. Ubuntu has saved my business lots of money and opened up all kinds of doors for me. It is perfect for business. We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many things that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at the terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of features without so much suffering. All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be. When I said useability studies what I should have said was useability studies for system administrators and power users, not Moms, Dads and Sisters who want to surf the web and write emails. Command power and customizability is our best foot, it is not being put forward. My writings don't seem to be of any help, I have a patent in the works, if things work out I will contribute financially instead-patrick Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 2:19 AM, Patrick wrote: ... It would be much better if the configure option would take care of this and perhaps the help and support area search results provided specific links to useful Ubuntu specific online information. I am disappointed that my efforts have come to nothing. ... If Ubuntu-specific help is lacking, you can get involved with the Ubuntu Documentation Team in writing it. http://doc.ubuntu.com/ If the help is present but is not being found in a search, please report that as a bug. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp/+bugs I would recommend more useablility studies to determine whether the present set up is actually being found and utilized. ... That's another way you can help: carry out user testing. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsabilityTesting Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Our best foot forward
On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Patrick wrote: ... We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many things that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at the terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of features without so much suffering. All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be. ... I think the problem is that you're unclear about how you want to contribute. You proposed helper terminal scripts for setting up server functions, and then you said perhaps it wasn't a good idea after all. You said the post-install scripts should be better, and Onno invited you to report bugs about specific problems. Have you? You said the help and support could be better, I invited you to join the documentation team, and then you said I don't think it is lacking in terms of the casual user and I am not having trouble searching for documentation. You suggested running usability tests, I invited you to do just that, and then you said it would be difficult to find representative test subjects. (True, but it's just as difficult for almost anyone else.) Forgive us if we're running out of ideas for how you can help. :-) Writing mailing list messages does not, in itself, improve Ubuntu. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Our best foot forward
indeed I am unsure of how to contribute. It would seem that I could take the prize for both the longest and most poorly written emails as the feedback I am receiving is disconnected from the message I was sending. To summarize my long winded emails: Ubuntu is the ultimate OS for the power user, programmer and System administrator.This is what needs to be promoted. Something like a helper script is badly needed but a post installation script is basically the same thing, no need to re-invent the wheel, it's better to improve whats already there. Most post installation scripts are turned off by default, they should not be. The post installation scripts are not very accessible. The configure option should also be available under the right click in synaptic. The post installation scripts should have more of a tutorial element to them. The post installation scripts should be divided up between programmers and tutorial writers. The tutorial element should be written by users that were recipients of the first ones, not by long time Linux experts who are disconnected from the experiences of a new user. I want to help write these post installation script tutorials. I apologize for contradicting myself on the documentation issue. The documentation that is written is already excellent. The only problem with it is that some users, like me, may get confused as to what is Ubuntu specific and what is Linux specific, they are not always the same as my manual compiling experience taught me. A Synaptic like search repository within the OS that pointed outwards to Ubuntu specific online documentation would be helpful. -Patrick Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Patrick wrote: ... We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many things that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at the terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of features without so much suffering. All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be. ... I think the problem is that you're unclear about how you want to contribute. You proposed helper terminal scripts for setting up server functions, and then you said perhaps it wasn't a good idea after all. You said the post-install scripts should be better, and Onno invited you to report bugs about specific problems. Have you? You said the help and support could be better, I invited you to join the documentation team, and then you said I don't think it is lacking in terms of the casual user and I am not having trouble searching for documentation. You suggested running usability tests, I invited you to do just that, and then you said it would be difficult to find representative test subjects. (True, but it's just as difficult for almost anyone else.) Forgive us if we're running out of ideas for how you can help. :-) Writing mailing list messages does not, in itself, improve Ubuntu. Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Our best foot forward
Patrick wrote: indeed I am unsure of how to contribute. It would seem that I could take the prize for both the longest and most poorly written emails as the feedback I am receiving is disconnected from the message I was sending. To summarize my long winded emails: Ubuntu is the ultimate OS for the power user, programmer and System administrator.This is what needs to be promoted. Something like a helper script is badly needed but a post installation script is basically the same thing, no need to re-invent the wheel, it's better to improve whats already there. Most post installation scripts are turned off by default, they should not be. The post installation scripts are not very accessible. The configure option should also be available under the right click in synaptic. The post installation scripts should have more of a tutorial element to them. The post installation scripts should be divided up between programmers and tutorial writers. The tutorial element should be written by users that were recipients of the first ones, not by long time Linux experts who are disconnected from the experiences of a new user. I want to help write these post installation script tutorials. I apologize for contradicting myself on the documentation issue. The documentation that is written is already excellent. The only problem with it is that some users, like me, may get confused as to what is Ubuntu specific and what is Linux specific, they are not always the same as my manual compiling experience taught me. A Synaptic like search repository within the OS that pointed outwards to Ubuntu specific online documentation would be helpful. -Patrick Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Patrick wrote: ... We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many things that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at the terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of features without so much suffering. All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be. ... I think the problem is that you're unclear about how you want to contribute. You proposed helper terminal scripts for setting up server functions, and then you said perhaps it wasn't a good idea after all. You said the post-install scripts should be better, and Onno invited you to report bugs about specific problems. Have you? You said the help and support could be better, I invited you to join the documentation team, and then you said I don't think it is lacking in terms of the casual user and I am not having trouble searching for documentation. You suggested running usability tests, I invited you to do just that, and then you said it would be difficult to find representative test subjects. (True, but it's just as difficult for almost anyone else.) Forgive us if we're running out of ideas for how you can help. :-) Writing mailing list messages does not, in itself, improve Ubuntu. Cheers it is true, Linux has everything you need if you don´t mind to edit some configuration files and spent a day or two to figure out the things you want to accomplish OR if somebody already made a simple interface for you to use it or pre-configured it. Ubuntu is made with the ¨no-brainer klik-klak power-user¨ in mind and i must say they already came a long way when it comes to the desktop but it is still lacking in the server department. if you want to start contributing you will need to find a small personal itch, something that bothers you and you need to see improved, you were talking about setting up vsftpd as a first troublesome experience so that would be a nice start, some script might do it indeed but maybe it would be good to have a look at ebox for example that is in development to become a part ubuntu (think they are working for Hardy), it is something that will strengthen the easy ubuntu experience on the server side, so you might want to have a look there, is FTP already a standard option in ebox? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
