Re: disk-manager by default

[Sarah Hobbs]

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Hash: SHA1

Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Saturday 09 February 2008 16:43, Piotr Zaryk wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I noticed the disk-manager is checked as milestone for alpha5. Is there a
>> chance to get it included in Ubuntu? The app is very stable and it's a
>> great idea IMHO.
>>
>> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/disk-manager-by-default
> 
> Specs for Hardy were largely done back in October/November of last year and 
> this spec was proposed last week, so this proposal is months late for Hardy.  
> Considering it's not even in Ubuntu at all at this point, I'd suggest it's 
> extraordinarily unlikely.
> 
> Scott K
> 
I've put a comment on the whiteboard of the spec, effectively saying the
same thing.  I wish people wouldn't blog about incorrect things, though
- - it would be *extraordinarily* unlikely to happen at this point.

Hobbsee
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Re: Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[Ioannis Nousias]

Milan wrote:
> SVG icons have to be generated and present in the "scalable" subdirs of
> your theme, or of the fallback theme ("hicolor"). Most apps already have
> SVG icons, maybe some don't install them.
> As for the performance side, several PNG icons are generated, one for
> each common size so the system doesn't need to use the SVG version. SVG
> is only used when really needed (i.e. for sizes superior to 22x22 or 48x48).
>   
I can see how that works in static/specific icon sizes, but considering 
the numerous visual effects we get on our modern distros these days, in 
most cases we are dealing with dynamically changing icons. Cairo-dock is 
one example, several compiz plugins (like shift-switcher, scale or even 
zoom) are some more. And with 'resolution independence' coming in the 
near future, I can't see how PNG could 'survive'. You would need a 
fairly high resolution PNG as a bases to avoid aliasing. And as you 
said, resizing a pixmap isn't necessarily less computationally intensive 
than rendering vector graphics. (well, it depends I guess)


> Ideally, .desktop file should not use .png or .svg extensions, but only
> the name of the icon. Every implementation will then use the preferred
> actual file depending on the size (this is still from the same spec).
>   
thanks for the tip. sensible approach.

> Concerning cairo-dock, there can be a bug, or maybe the .desktop files
> it uses are copied to a static config dir, and thus are not updated. But
> Cairo-dock is likely to use 48x48 icons, which are present in PNG format
> - maybe I'm missing something?
>   
you are probably right about the local copies of .desktop files (I 
haven't looked at this yet though). Cairo-dock is using SVGs for its 
launchers.

> To sum up, yes, having SVG icons for every app would be good, and no, it
> does not hurt performance. The best to do is reporting bugs upstream,
> that should not take them too much time to fix.
>   
out of the 273 .desktop files in my /usr/share/applications, 31 use explicitly 
.png suffix in their 'Icon' field, 7 use .svg, 8 .xpm and the rest don't 
specify a suffix. Where should I file a bug report for this? It would be 
cumbersome to file a bug report for each application that does not conform to 
the standard.




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Re: Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[A. Walton]

On Feb 9, 2008 1:53 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 1:27 PM, Milan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > To sum up, yes, having SVG icons for every app would be good, and no, it
> > does not hurt performance.
> >
>
> Depends on your system.  The calculations for SVG technically take more
> cycles to do than just drawing a raster does.  I'm guessing the 10 year old
> computer at my dad's house would be slower with SVG than with rasters, but
> P4 and newer wouldn't have any noticeable difference at all.  Maybe having a
> powerful GPU makes the point moot, but vectors do require more calculations
> than rasters do.
>

Shouldn't matter; even if the SVG took ten times longer to render than
the PNG did to decompress, for slower machines, you'd just dump the
PNG back to disk and read it in next time (until a different
resolution is needed, when you re-render from SVG). Also, most
toolkits already do very aggressive caching (GTK+ especially so, to
avoid hitting and drawing SVGs every time around).

With the push towards GPU acceleration (in cairo expecially), now's
the time to start shipping SVGs.

-A.Walton.

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Re: disk-manager by default

[Scott Kitterman]

On Saturday 09 February 2008 16:43, Piotr Zaryk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I noticed the disk-manager is checked as milestone for alpha5. Is there a
> chance to get it included in Ubuntu? The app is very stable and it's a
> great idea IMHO.
>
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/disk-manager-by-default

Specs for Hardy were largely done back in October/November of last year and 
this spec was proposed last week, so this proposal is months late for Hardy.  
Considering it's not even in Ubuntu at all at this point, I'd suggest it's 
extraordinarily unlikely.

Scott K

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Re: disk-manager by default

[Evan]

I haven't a clue when/if it will get included, but I really like the
concept. If AutoFsck (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutoFsck) gets included, it
would be a good place to integrate the options window.

On 2/9/08, Piotr Zaryk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I noticed the disk-manager is checked as milestone for alpha5. Is there a
> chance to get it included in Ubuntu? The app is very stable and it's a great
> idea IMHO.
>
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/disk-manager-by-default
>
> --
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> Zaryk
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disk-manager by default

[Piotr Zaryk]

Hi,

I noticed the disk-manager is checked as milestone for alpha5. Is there a
chance to get it included in Ubuntu? The app is very stable and it's a great
idea IMHO.

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/disk-manager-by-default

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Re: "Make sense" keymap to launch gnome-system-monitor?

[Milan]

Cory K. a écrit :
> Ubuntu Studio has decided to add a keymap to launch gnome-system-monitor.
>
> Most windows users see this as a equivalent to Ctrl+Alt+Del. That is of
> course already mapped and launches the logout dialog. So we decided to
> use the keys KDE uses to launch their monitor. Ctrl+Esc. This works out
> great in metacity but not so well in Compiz as both Ctrl and Esc are
> "special" keys and cannot be used this way.
>
> >From #compiz-fusion-dev: "maniac103: Escape == Cancel and Return ==
> Commit (regardless of the modifiers) and cannot be used together"
>
> So I'm asking what would possibly be a "make sense" keymap to use across
> both Metacity and Compiz to use for gnome-system-monitor?
>   
If you're motivated enough and willing to find a lasting shortcut, the
best to do IMHO is to contact freedesktop.org. This shortcut concerns
every desktop environment and should really be the same everywhere, else
people will always forget it when they (occasionally) need it.

This feature is non-intrusive for users that don't know it exists, so
adopting a shortcut (or even just free this precise combination) should
not be a problem. Maybe a solution could be found considering together
issues with compiz/metacity/kwin, X.org and GNOME/KDE/XFCE: add a second
key combination that X.org would always redirect to a command.

I hope you do so... ;-)

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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Evan]

Miro starts up with about 35MB of ram, and maxes out around 100MB, but only
after downloading and watching a lot of stuff, and browsing many channels.
When it starts for the first time, and you point it to any videos you
already have on disk, it generates thumbnails for every one. This process is
extremely slow (about 10 seconds of 100% cpu for one thumbnail on my PC) and
kicks ram usage up a good 50MB, but once all the thumbnails have been
generated, miro is actually quite snappy, and i haven't had any real
problems with it.

After getting it set up, it doesn't use any more resources than Firefox, so
it wouldn't really raise the system requirements, however it uses a ton of
bandwith, and is fairly large. My thought is to include it in the main repo,
but not on the CD.
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Re: Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[Milan]

Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 1:27 PM, Milan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> To sum up, yes, having SVG icons for every app would be good, and
> no, it
> does not hurt performance.
>
>
> Depends on your system.  The calculations for SVG technically take
> more cycles to do than just drawing a raster does.  I'm guessing the
> 10 year old computer at my dad's house would be slower with SVG than
> with rasters, but P4 and newer wouldn't have any noticeable difference
> at all.  Maybe having a powerful GPU makes the point moot, but vectors
> do require more calculations than rasters do.
This assessment was referring to my previous comment:

> As for the performance side, several PNG icons are generated, one for
> each common size so the system doesn't need to use the SVG version. SVG
> is only used when really needed (i.e. for sizes superior to 22x22 or 48x48).
Which implied that installing more SVG files wouldn't hurt performance since 
they won't be used unless you don't have a suitable PNG version at that size. 
Resizing a PNG that will be blurry or drawing a smart SVG is likely to be quite 
the same in terms of calculation.


Apart from that, it is obvious that we don't want to make every icon displayed 
on the desktop come from a SVG, that would be waste of GPU. our current 
mechanism is quite good, indeed: installing every needed size in PNG, and a SVG 
version for special cases will solve all problems.


Cheers


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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Mackenzie Morgan]

I've done it on 192MB.  It wasn't pretty (mostly because the open source ATI
drivers are the only thing that supports the Rage II, and only at 800x600
when the card can do up to 102x768seriously, Ubuntu was *not* meant for
800x600 systems), but it was functional.  That one's around 300MHz, I
think.  It's a Pentium 2.

On Feb 9, 2008 3:31 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 700Mhz, 500Mhz? OK, I cede! Apparently my 10-year old desktop is one of
> the faster computers around :P It does look like 256MB ram is the lowest
> you'll see running vanilla Ubuntu though. My setup only takes 50MB on a
> fresh boot, but I know that vanilla Ubuntu takes around 150MB, so including
> Miro would significantly boost the system requirements.
>
>
> Just for kicks, I downloaded and installed the latest version from the
> miro repos (1.1.2). Upon running, it crashed because I don't have firefox
> installed (opera is faster). I'll install firefox and get back on how well
> it works, but this is something that should be fixed in the packaging: miro
> depends on firefox.
>
>
>
> On 2/9/08, Greg K Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 13:09 -0500, Evan wrote:
> > > I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately
> > > slowly but easily survivable.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu
> > > installed on though.
> >
> >
> > 1 GHz? Luxury! I run Ubuntu on a ~700-MHz Athlon, albeit with 376.5 MB
> > of memory.
> >
> > Miro doesn't work, but I think that's the dodgy Nvidia driver (the
> > open-source one) rather than the slow processor.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: "Make sense" keymap to launch gnome-system-monitor?

[Mackenzie Morgan]

For some reason, I think Compiz's "unredirect fullscreen" setting lets
Compiz get keyboard combos even while using a fullscreen app.  I don't have
it installed here, so I can't try, but I think I could open an xterm while
running Battle for Wesnoth.

On Feb 9, 2008 3:17 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is the only keyboard control that x locks, and it kills
> x completely. There is no way to kill only the crashed full-screen app.
> Non-fullscreen apps can be killed with xkill or others, but when an app
> grabs the entire keyboard and crashes, it's Ctrl-Alt-Backspace or a hard
> power-off, both of which make you lose unsaved work in other open apps.
>
> Ideally, x would allow window managers to permagrab certain key combos
> regardless of who has the keyboard. This would allow people to kill apps
> that grab the whole keyboard without killing everything else. It would also
> allow media keys (volume, etc.) to work in fullscreen apps, as they
> currently don't.
>
> I definitely agree with the fact that their should be an ability to add
> custom keyboard shortcuts througFor h gnome keyboard gui. I'm using
> fluxbox-keys now, but I remember being annoyed by that when I was still
> using Gnome.
>

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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Evan]

700Mhz, 500Mhz? OK, I cede! Apparently my 10-year old desktop is one of the
faster computers around :P It does look like 256MB ram is the lowest you'll
see running vanilla Ubuntu though. My setup only takes 50MB on a fresh boot,
but I know that vanilla Ubuntu takes around 150MB, so including Miro would
significantly boost the system requirements.


Just for kicks, I downloaded and installed the latest version from the miro
repos (1.1.2). Upon running, it crashed because I don't have firefox
installed (opera is faster). I'll install firefox and get back on how well
it works, but this is something that should be fixed in the packaging: miro
depends on firefox.


On 2/9/08, Greg K Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 13:09 -0500, Evan wrote:
> > I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately
> > slowly but easily survivable.
>
> ...
>
> > I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu
> > installed on though.
>
>
> 1 GHz? Luxury! I run Ubuntu on a ~700-MHz Athlon, albeit with 376.5 MB
> of memory.
>
> Miro doesn't work, but I think that's the dodgy Nvidia driver (the
> open-source one) rather than the slow processor.
>
>
>
>
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Re: "Make sense" keymap to launch gnome-system-monitor?

[Evan]

Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is the only keyboard control that x locks, and it kills x
completely. There is no way to kill only the crashed full-screen app.
Non-fullscreen apps can be killed with xkill or others, but when an app
grabs the entire keyboard and crashes, it's Ctrl-Alt-Backspace or a hard
power-off, both of which make you lose unsaved work in other open apps.

Ideally, x would allow window managers to permagrab certain key combos
regardless of who has the keyboard. This would allow people to kill apps
that grab the whole keyboard without killing everything else. It would also
allow media keys (volume, etc.) to work in fullscreen apps, as they
currently don't.

I definitely agree with the fact that their should be an ability to add
custom keyboard shortcuts through gnome keyboard gui. I'm using fluxbox-keys
now, but I remember being annoyed by that when I was still using Gnome.

On 2/9/08, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Doesn't xorg hold some keybindings?  I thought Ctrl+Alt+Backspace worked
> to kill X in full screen apps, I'm sure I've used it in games.
>
> One thing we really do need is a way to easily make new keybindings.  The
> existing gnome keyboard shortcuts GUI is fine, but it doesn't allow you to
> add them.  What we need to be able to do is specify a keybinding and a
> command, short of going a mucking about in gconf.  In my opinion as a
> keyboard junky (and as somebody who has worked extensively with visually
> impaired computer users), not being able to easily add keyboard shortcuts to
> gnome is quite a problem.
>
> Anyway, if we had that functionality, people could assign whatever they
> want to whatever they want, they could have a keybinding for xkill.
>
> On Feb 10, 2008 4:01 AM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It is only a keybinding, so as long as people can change it, then the
> > default doesn't matter all that much. The only problem with the concept at
> > the moment is that people will expect it to work during full-screen apps
> > like Ctrl-Alt-Delete does in windows. It doesn't at the moment because SDL
> > and openGL apps grab the entire keyboard. This is kind of X.orgs fault
> > for not providing a way to force-hold certain key-combos regardless of who
> > has the keyboard (this would also solve a lot of problems with media keys
> > not working in full-screen apps).
> >
> > A lot of people will use this to kill crashed apps, but it won't work in
> > fullscreen. Is there any way to resolve this problem short of asking the
> > X.org devs to rewrite their keyboard handling?
> >
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Re: "Make sense" keymap to launch gnome-system-monitor?

[Jonathan Musther]

Doesn't xorg hold some keybindings?  I thought Ctrl+Alt+Backspace worked to
kill X in full screen apps, I'm sure I've used it in games.

One thing we really do need is a way to easily make new keybindings.  The
existing gnome keyboard shortcuts GUI is fine, but it doesn't allow you to
add them.  What we need to be able to do is specify a keybinding and a
command, short of going a mucking about in gconf.  In my opinion as a
keyboard junky (and as somebody who has worked extensively with visually
impaired computer users), not being able to easily add keyboard shortcuts to
gnome is quite a problem.

Anyway, if we had that functionality, people could assign whatever they want
to whatever they want, they could have a keybinding for xkill.

On Feb 10, 2008 4:01 AM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It is only a keybinding, so as long as people can change it, then the
> default doesn't matter all that much. The only problem with the concept at
> the moment is that people will expect it to work during full-screen apps
> like Ctrl-Alt-Delete does in windows. It doesn't at the moment because SDL
> and openGL apps grab the entire keyboard. This is kind of X.orgs fault for
> not providing a way to force-hold certain key-combos regardless of who has
> the keyboard (this would also solve a lot of problems with media keys not
> working in full-screen apps).
>
> A lot of people will use this to kill crashed apps, but it won't work in
> fullscreen. Is there any way to resolve this problem short of asking the
> X.org devs to rewrite their keyboard handling?
>
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Re: Transmission as default bittorrent client

[Jonathan Musther]

I know I was defending Transmission, but I just had a bad experience with
it, checked on their forums, and it seems to be a fairly common thing.

I don't normally turn off my computer when I'm downloading something big,
but yesterday I was downloading a torrent which was coming rather slowly,
and decided I'd continue in the morning.  I closed transmission properly,
and shut down.  Upon reopening Transmission it had lost most of the 350mb I
had downloaded, it had only managed to preserve 20.

As I said, there are other people complaining about this on their forums.
So, while I prefer the look and feel of Transmission, I've now started using
deluge...

I agree with Remco in that it would be perfectly adequate to simply have a
dialogue prompting to install a torrent handler, as we now do with certain
audio-video codecs.  After all, if you're torrenting, you must have a net
connection.


On Feb 8, 2008 5:10 PM, A. Walton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2008 7:46 PM, Remco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I noticed I didn't actually send this to the list... here it is.
> >
> > Remco
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: Remco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Feb 6, 2008 3:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: Transmission as default bittorrent client
> > To: Bryan Quigley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> > On Feb 6, 2008 2:44 AM, Bryan Quigley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > My initial reaction was similar.  However, in transmissions favor
> > > Memory usage (quick test)
> > > Deluge at 23 Mb
> > > Transmission at 7 Mb
> > >
> > > The interface also seems more transitional from the previous
> integrated
> > > client.  I think one of the big factors is that deluge has a wizard to
> get
> > > you setup while transmission just works.
> >
> > It's true that Deluge has a wizard (which you can skip if you really
> > want). However, two of these settings are very important: Maximum
> > Upload Speed and Maximum Connections. If you don't set a maximum
> > upload speed, your download speed will plummet, and you'll have
> > trouble reaching websites. And many cheap routers crash when they have
> > to deal with the amount of connections bittorrent-traffic usually
> > consists of. Not setting these right will make an app Just Not Work
> > (tm).
> >
> > If there is consensus on which misfeatures really kill the chance of
> > Deluge becoming the default app, I could direct the Deluge-devs to
> > these concerns. Due to Deluge's modular architecture, anything can be
> > moved from default to plugin.
> >
> > So far, I've seen:
> > * High memory usage.
> > * High file size.
> > * Obscure features that should be a plugin.
> > * Wizard-based configuration over sane-default.
> >
> > I've run Transmission, and one thing I like is that it chooses a
> > random port, and opens it with NAT traversal. No configuration
> > required. The rest of the application is too limited for my taste.
> > With Deluge I can easily extend the features by selecting a few
> > plugins. I think file size could be reduced by actually not including
> > the plugins by default.
> >
> > I think, if the Deluge-devs would want to resolve these concerns,
> > Deluge would be a far better choice.
> > * It's more popular.
> > * It has features people need that Transmission misses.
> > * It's easily extendable.
> > * It looks like µTorrent & Azureus.
> > * It runs on Mac & Windows (helps acceptance by slow migration).
> >
> >
> > Remco
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> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
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> >
>
> To be honest, I don't see the need to include a Bittorrent client by
> default at all; it's always going to be this kind of war: "My client's
> better and I'll tell you why". I think if Ubuntu's going to include
> one at all (and waste the CD space on it for those users who don't
> know what a torrent is, never used it before, and maybe never will),
> it should be one that's small, wasting as little space as possible,
> and extremely simple to use. Gnome-BT fit that bill, but is completely
> unmaintained. The next rung up the ladder is Transmission (and even
> the developer of Gnome-BT acknowledges this:
> http://gnome-bt.sourceforge.net/ ).
>
> Even if you disagree with the client, don't like it, don't use it, it
> doesn't matter: as soon as you install Ubuntu, you're going to choose
> your favorite client anyway. But you're not the average case here.
> BitTorrent is widely accepted amongst some circles, especially us, the
> Free Software world, as it's a great way to distribute new versions of
> our software. It's not as widely accepted outside of our world: your
> mother would probably look at you cross-eyed if you told her to
> "download the latest version of Ubuntu with BitTorrent." In the latter
> case, Transmission wins that hands down.
>
> Continuing this discussion ad nauseum may make you feel better, but I
> don't think it's li

Re: Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Feb 9, 2008 1:27 PM, Milan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> To sum up, yes, having SVG icons for every app would be good, and no, it
> does not hurt performance.
>

Depends on your system.  The calculations for SVG technically take more
cycles to do than just drawing a raster does.  I'm guessing the 10 year old
computer at my dad's house would be slower with SVG than with rasters, but
P4 and newer wouldn't have any noticeable difference at all.  Maybe having a
powerful GPU makes the point moot, but vectors do require more calculations
than rasters do.

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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Greg K Nicholson]

On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 13:09 -0500, Evan wrote:
> I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately
> slowly but easily survivable. 
...
> I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu
> installed on though.

1 GHz? Luxury! I run Ubuntu on a ~700-MHz Athlon, albeit with 376.5 MB
of memory.

Miro doesn't work, but I think that's the dodgy Nvidia driver (the
open-source one) rather than the slow processor.



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Re: Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[Milan]

Ioannis Nousias a écrit :
> I'm sure this has been asked before.
>
> Most of the system application launchers use PNG icons. For example, 
> Firefox and Thunderbird (two of the most commonly used apps). Very few 
> use SVG, like gnome-terminal.  I like to have few icons on my desktops 
> that are stretch to ~x2 their size. PNGs look aliased when stretched.
>
> Another case where the fixed resolution of PNGs gets in the way, is in 
> things like cairo-dock, where the application's icon in 'window list' 
> looks aliased.
>
> The obvious question is, why use PNGs and not SVG for all icons? 
> Performance?
> Also, is that theme related ? I use the 'human' theme.
>   
SVG icons have to be generated and present in the "scalable" subdirs of
your theme, or of the fallback theme ("hicolor"). Most apps already have
SVG icons, maybe some don't install them.
As for the performance side, several PNG icons are generated, one for
each common size so the system doesn't need to use the SVG version. SVG
is only used when really needed (i.e. for sizes superior to 22x22 or 48x48).

All this is developed in the freedesktop.org specification for icon
themes that you can read here:
http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html
> regards,
> Ioannis
>
>
> PS: I've modified 'firefox.desktop' in '/usr/share/applications', just 
> to make sure that the default uses SVG. This works well for my desktop 
> icons, however, things like cairo-dock keep displaying a PNG icon of the 
> running firefox app. Is there something else I need to change, or is 
> this Cairo-Dock's fault ?
>   
Ideally, .desktop file should not use .png or .svg extensions, but only
the name of the icon. Every implementation will then use the preferred
actual file depending on the size (this is still from the same spec).

Concerning cairo-dock, there can be a bug, or maybe the .desktop files
it uses are copied to a static config dir, and thus are not updated. But
Cairo-dock is likely to use 48x48 icons, which are present in PNG format
- maybe I'm missing something?

Though, Firefox does not seem to have a SVG icon available: AWN uses the
48x48 PNG version. This explains why on the Desktop, it does not resize
without being aliased.


To sum up, yes, having SVG icons for every app would be good, and no, it
does not hurt performance. The best to do is reporting bugs upstream,
that should not take them too much time to fix.

Cheers

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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Conrad Knauer]

On Feb 9, 2008 12:09 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't know about the average computer, but it probably varies quite a bit.
> I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately
> slowly but easily survivable. Xubuntu runs decently. I'm a bit of a speed
> freak though, so I installed the core bits from the alternate cd and built a
> custom fluxbox setup from there. I'd say that this is about the lowest-end
> pc you'll find normal Ubuntu installed on though.

 Actually, I set up a computer for my daughter (age 3 :) that's
a 500 MHz Celeron that I maxed out to 256 MB RAM and it runs vanilla
Ubuntu pretty well for her purposes (playing music, tux paint, viewing
images, etc.)  Probably wouldn't run Miro very well though O:)

CK

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Re: Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[Mackenzie Morgan]

One intention for Hardy, at least from what I read before (correct me if
it's changed) was to use SVGs for everything, so I'm guessing things are
changing over bit by bit.  Many of the apps have a png and an svg version
available though.

On Feb 9, 2008 10:36 AM, Ioannis Nousias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm sure this has been asked before.
>
> Most of the system application launchers use PNG icons. For example,
> Firefox and Thunderbird (two of the most commonly used apps). Very few
> use SVG, like gnome-terminal.  I like to have few icons on my desktops
> that are stretch to ~x2 their size. PNGs look aliased when stretched.
>
> Another case where the fixed resolution of PNGs gets in the way, is in
> things like cairo-dock, where the application's icon in 'window list'
> looks aliased.
>
> The obvious question is, why use PNGs and not SVG for all icons?
> Performance?
> Also, is that theme related ? I use the 'human' theme.
>
> regards,
> Ioannis
>
>
> PS: I've modified 'firefox.desktop' in '/usr/share/applications', just
> to make sure that the default uses SVG. This works well for my desktop
> icons, however, things like cairo-dock keep displaying a PNG icon of the
> running firefox app. Is there something else I need to change, or is
> this Cairo-Dock's fault ?
>
>
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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Evan]

I don't know about the average computer, but it probably varies quite a bit.
I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately
slowly but easily survivable. Xubuntu runs decently. I'm a bit of a speed
freak though, so I installed the core bits from the alternate cd and built a
custom fluxbox setup from there. I'd say that this is about the lowest-end
pc you'll find normal Ubuntu installed on though.

Just my 2 cents

On 2/9/08, Conrad Knauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
> > it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
> > default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.
>
>
> Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the
> current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository)  Other people mentioned that its
> a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: "it was barely working
> on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop") what kind of system do you have?
>
> And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is
> targeting?  The System Requirements listed on
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must
> be below what most people use Ubuntu on...
>
>
> CK
>
>
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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Vadim Peretokin]

Mine is a ThinkPad T40. 1.5Ghz CPU, ATI Radeon 7500 (32mb ram, open-source
"radeon" driver). I am using Miro's repository, so it is the latest version.

That said, I think it would be great if we advertised it on the website
(those screenshots could use some updating too, btw).

On Feb 9, 2008 12:54 PM, Conrad Knauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
> > it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
> > default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.
>
> Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the
> current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository)  Other people mentioned that its
> a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: "it was barely working
> on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop") what kind of system do you have?
>
> And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is
> targeting?  The System Requirements listed on
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must
> be below what most people use Ubuntu on...
>
> CK
>
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Re: Vinagre is confusing

[Mackenzie Morgan]

I'm guessing because VNC is kind of standard.

On Feb 9, 2008 5:19 AM, Thomas Novin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello
>
> Today on Application > Internet I've got Remote Desktop Viewer and
> Terminal Server Client (on Hardy).
>
> As a user that knows he's is using Remote Desktop Protocol to connect to
> his Windows server, what do you think he will choose? I think the user
> will launch Remote Desktop Viewer/Vinagre and fail to connect to his RDP
> server. I think this should be renamed to avoid confusion.
>
> Why is this new VNC client added in the first place? Why not work with
> Terminal Server Client instead?
>
> Rgds
>
>
>
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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Conrad Knauer]

On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
> it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
> default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.

Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the
current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository)  Other people mentioned that its
a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: "it was barely working
on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop") what kind of system do you have?

And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is
targeting?  The System Requirements listed on
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must
be below what most people use Ubuntu on...

CK

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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Dylan McCall]

Miro is a wonderful idea, and the Miro guide is an excellent web site, but
the program itself is a painfully bloated (and buggy) pig. The word
"refactor" echoes in the back of my mind every time I use it -- which is
very often, because it's still an excellent concept!
Alas, it should definitely not have hit 1.0 until the program stopped
creating duplicate entries for torrent downloads, and allowed for Miro
channels to change their feed URL on the fly. (As it is, since the Google
Tech Talks location changed, the channel is broken for every past
subscriber).

The front end could also use some more imagination. Possibly a bigger
division between front and back ends would do the program well. I, for one,
would love to navigate my Miro library with Elisa, for example, while still
having a daemon (or something!) download my stuff in the background. At the
moment, it is laid out just like an RSS feed reader with pictures, which
defeats the purpose entirely. The only reason I really use Miro over an RSS
reader, is because it integrates with that fancy guide web site. A problem
right now is that opening a channel tends to take a few seconds (even on a
2.2 gHz Intel Core 2 Duo), yet that is the only way at the moment to list
downloaded shows in categories. The interface has me thinking way too much
about RSS feeds, what it should be downloading, wondering where things are
and why one download that I thought I deleted a month ago keeps reappearing.

As for the good part... check out the Google Tech Talks and TED channels.
Googletechtalks is just an RSS feed of YouTube, but it is really nice and
easy to get those through Miro since YouTube conceals their RSS subscribe
buttons so that it takes ages to find them. Thanks to the Miro guide, things
like that are really quickly discoverable, which is one of the things that
makes TV such an intuitive experience; when people flip channels, they may
find interest in shows they had no idea existed! Unfortunately, the guide
still necessitates direct searching, but areas like the Popular Channels
list help greatly.
There is even a Yoga channel, if I remember rightly.

Miro is looking to do for TV what the Internet is doing for text-based and
interactive entertainment: Bringing the work, (and therefore the profits),
closer to the content creators. This means less shady business practises,
fewer businesses who base their entire profit model on luck and / or messing
with their customers (*Cough* Retail), more open content, and - most
importantly - less expensive content. A program like Miro (or really just
the Internet TV idea in general) makes broadcast easier and more accessible
than through a big TV network. This may take a while, as people are still
very much hooked to the big / evil networks like Fox, but there is nothing
to lose - only things to gain from the (potentially) infinitely superior
infrastructure (when Miro loses its bugs). Internet services are the new
medium for broadcast of content, and they have proven their worth in
durability, flexibility and generally low cost. There are already some
Internet radio channels that blast their analog broadcast competition out of
the water, and online news sites are far easier to deal with than newspapers
since they only consume space and time when you tell them to (ie: They have
something interesting). Search engines like Google can integrate beautifully
with all this stuff because every server talks in the same way, no matter
what its owners are broadcasting. Internet TV is going to happen.

...Anyway, Miro is a fantastic program, but not ready for default. Yet. I do
agree, however, that it may be a neat idea in the future :)



Bye,
--Dylan McCall

PS: In my opinion, naturally.


On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Vadim Peretokin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Miro is a great program, but it was *barely* working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram
> laptop. Pretty much unusable. So, it wouldn't really fit the min ubuntu
> requirements and make some people unhappy. Not necessary...
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2008 10:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote:
> > > Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> > > Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> > > Hardy+1?'
> >
> > I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
> > it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
> > default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.
> >
> > Vincenzo
> >
> > --
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Use SVG icons instead of PNG

[Ioannis Nousias]

I'm sure this has been asked before.

Most of the system application launchers use PNG icons. For example, 
Firefox and Thunderbird (two of the most commonly used apps). Very few 
use SVG, like gnome-terminal.  I like to have few icons on my desktops 
that are stretch to ~x2 their size. PNGs look aliased when stretched.

Another case where the fixed resolution of PNGs gets in the way, is in 
things like cairo-dock, where the application's icon in 'window list' 
looks aliased.

The obvious question is, why use PNGs and not SVG for all icons? 
Performance?
Also, is that theme related ? I use the 'human' theme.

regards,
Ioannis


PS: I've modified 'firefox.desktop' in '/usr/share/applications', just 
to make sure that the default uses SVG. This works well for my desktop 
icons, however, things like cairo-dock keep displaying a PNG icon of the 
running firefox app. Is there something else I need to change, or is 
this Cairo-Dock's fault ?


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Re: "Make sense" keymap to launch gnome-system-monitor?

[Evan]

It is only a keybinding, so as long as people can change it, then the
default doesn't matter all that much. The only problem with the concept at
the moment is that people will expect it to work during full-screen apps
like Ctrl-Alt-Delete does in windows. It doesn't at the moment because SDL
and openGL apps grab the entire keyboard. This is kind of X.orgs fault for
not providing a way to force-hold certain key-combos regardless of who has
the keyboard (this would also solve a lot of problems with media keys not
working in full-screen apps).

A lot of people will use this to kill crashed apps, but it won't work in
fullscreen. Is there any way to resolve this problem short of asking the
X.org devs to rewrite their keyboard handling?
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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Vadim Peretokin]

Miro is a great program, but it was *barely* working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram
laptop. Pretty much unusable. So, it wouldn't really fit the min ubuntu
requirements and make some people unhappy. Not necessary...

On Feb 9, 2008 10:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote:
> > Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> > Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> > Hardy+1?'
>
> I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
> it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
> default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.
>
> Vincenzo
>
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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Vincenzo Ciancia]

On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote:
> Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> Hardy+1?'

I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since 
it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the 
default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.

Vincenzo

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Vinagre is confusing

[Thomas Novin]

Hello

Today on Application > Internet I've got Remote Desktop Viewer and
Terminal Server Client (on Hardy).

As a user that knows he's is using Remote Desktop Protocol to connect to
his Windows server, what do you think he will choose? I think the user
will launch Remote Desktop Viewer/Vinagre and fail to connect to his RDP
server. I think this should be renamed to avoid confusion.

Why is this new VNC client added in the first place? Why not work with
Terminal Server Client instead?

Rgds



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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Emmet Hikory]

Sarah Hobbs wrote:
> > 'If Miro can't be added to the default Hardy install (e.g. added to 
> > ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for Hardy+1?'
>
> Forgive me for asking this - but is the market for watching internet TV 
> really that big?

Conrad Knauer replied:
> What would define a "large market"?
>
> Should Ubuntu only include software reactively rather than watching
> for emerging trends?

Ubuntu tends to include as much software as possible, with as much
of that as can fit included in the default CD.  What gets included in
the default CD is more a matter of providing working base
functionality for as many users as possible, rather than those
features that may be interesting (although this often includes
interesting things).

> If Ubuntu switched to a DVD-based release, would you include it?

Ubuntu does have a DVD release, on which miro is included.  This
release is not recommended for most users, as it is only in a very
rare case that all of the software included on the DVD is interesting
for the user.  In the vast majority of cases, it is easier and less
expensive for the user to install from the CD and then install any
specific additional software desired from the network.

Regarding the presence of miro on the default CD, there are a few
steps to the process of possible, inclusion.  Anyone is welcome to
pursue these steps, but due to the limited size of a CD, not all
programs submitted will necessarily be included.

1) File a MainInclusionReport for the candidate
2) Once the candidate is in main, investigate test-building CDs
containing the candidate: this often might require removal of
something.
3) Once a CD build using the new candidate works, investigate what
needed to be removed to determine the tradeoff
4) Present the results of this research to the developers as a
candidate change to the CD build.

The above tends to be a fair amount of work, and can be quite
frustrating due to the limit of what can be on the CD, the competition
with other software seeking to be included on the CD, and the time and
number of approvals required.

-- 
Emmet HIKORY

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Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Conrad Knauer]

On Feb 9, 2008 1:15 AM, Sarah Hobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > 'If Miro can't be added to the default Hardy install (e.g. added to 
> > ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for Hardy+1?'
>
> Forgive me for asking this - but is the market for watching internet TV 
> really that big?

No no, its a valid question :)

I would describe it as an emerging market (note the doubling download
rate I quoted from the Groklaw interview as well as the proprietary
competitors mentioned in the linked full interview, such as Joost and
Hulu).

> I've only seen *one* person ever actually watching it.
>  I don't see many people coming in and asking "how do i watch internet
> tv?".  Besides that, why would one *want* to go for internet TV, when
> there are bigger tv's elsewhere, where you can watch what you like there.

Time-shifting springs to mind (download overnight, watch in the morning).

Place-shifting (e.g. what if you want to watch something while
commuting on a train or bus?)

Also, the content available is often not available via regular TV
stations/cable (e.g. niche programs; Miro claims over 2500
'channels').

> Perhaps it's due to being Australian, with the associated low bandwidths,

Ah, low speed internet would be a problem, but then again, that's a
general problem for Ubuntu as a whole, ne?  Updates for example-
downloading new kernel or Firefox versions would get annoying if one
didn't set them to d/l during idle time (e.g. overnight).

> but I don't see this as a large market, which would be required for it to 
> take up CD space.

What would define a "large market"?

Should Ubuntu only include software reactively rather than watching
for emerging trends?

If Ubuntu switched to a DVD-based release, would you include it?

CK

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